A Discussion On Blind Faith

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Are you talking to me?

Sorry, it was directed towards TGP. Should have used the quote button.

[theseoafs]

Then would an accurate definition of music be any form of artistic aural expression?

Yes, so long as the artist intends for it to be music.

[Implode]

Then would an accurate definition of music be any form of artistic aural expression?

Yes, so long as the artist intends for it to be music.

That's what I assumed. Okay cool.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Then would an accurate definition of music be any form of artistic aural expression?

Yes, so long as the artist intends for it to be music.

I agree. It's not like it's just a track of talking and they're trying to say that's music. Putting samples over music adds to the music, it doesn't take away any of the musicality.

[TheGreatPretender]

I agree. It's not like it's just a track of talking and they're trying to say that's music. Putting samples over music adds to the music, it doesn't take away any of the musicality.

But that's not entirely true either. I mean, even samples aside, imagine having a cool riff, with a really horrendous solo going over top of it. That solo is gonna distract you from the part that you would actually find enjoyable.

[Implode]

It doesn't take away from the objective musicality. It takes away from your personal enjoyment of it.

[TheGreatPretender]

It doesn't take away from the objective musicality. It takes away from your personal enjoyment of it.

That doesn't help the listener who is trying to enjoy the music but can't.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

I agree. It's not like it's just a track of talking and they're trying to say that's music. Putting samples over music adds to the music, it doesn't take away any of the musicality.

But that's not entirely true either. I mean, even samples aside, imagine having a cool riff, with a really horrendous solo going over top of it. That solo is gonna distract you from the part that you would actually find enjoyable.

But just because you don't like the solo, doesn't mean it isn't an element in the music!

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

It doesn't take away from the objective musicality. It takes away from your personal enjoyment of it.

That doesn't help the listener who is trying to enjoy the music but can't.

That's why the listener hopes the band is as cool as DT and releases he stems of the songs so they can make their own mix! hahaha.

[Implode]

It doesn't take away from the objective musicality. It takes away from your personal enjoyment of it.

That doesn't help the listener who is trying to enjoy the music but can't.

Right. That's where, "I don't like this song," comes in.

[TheGreatPretender]

But just because you don't like the solo, doesn't mean it isn't an element in the music!

Yeah, but that principle alone isn't going to make me appreciate it any more. My point is, adding an element that's not likable can make the song worse than not having that element at all. Just because something is added to the music, doesn't mean that it adds to how good the song is.

And yes, Implode, I can easily say, "I don't like this song," but it's just a bummer because they didn't have to add anything to the song to make it better, but rather, taking something away. It's like, the song that I would love is in there, in its entirety, but this other element they added... Maybe it doesn't take away from the 'music' in principle. But let's just say it takes away from the purity of it.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

But just because you don't like the solo, doesn't mean it isn't an element in the music!

Yeah, but that principle alone isn't going to make me appreciate it any more. My point is, adding an element that's not likable can make the song worse than not having that element at all. Just because something is added to the music, doesn't mean that it adds to how good the song is.

And yes, Implode, I can easily say, "I don't like this song," but it's just a bummer because they didn't have to add anything to the song to make it better, but rather, taking something away. It's like, the song that I would love is in there, in its entirety, but this other element they added... Maybe it doesn't take away from the 'music' in principle. But let's just say it takes away from the purity of it.

Well then they might as well not make any music, because no matter what, there will always be a part of every one of their songs that someone doesn't like. I happen to enjoy the samples, so your argument of "adding an element that's not likable can make the song worse than not having that element at all" is invalid.

[theseoafs]

TGP, I didn't mean to make everybody gang up on you or to slam you for a minor linguistic issue or anything like that. However, it's not a good idea to insinuate that things that are obviously music aren't music, because people like me get upset.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Yeah, I hope I'm not coming off as hostile or anything. I'm completely calm. I really enjoy a good debate.

[TheGreatPretender]

no matter what, there will always be a part of every one of their songs that someone doesn't like.

Yes, and those people will time and again state how much they dislike those parts, just like I am.

I happen to enjoy the samples, so your argument of "adding an element that's not likable can make the song worse than not having that element at all" is invalid.

It's not invalid, it's just subjective. That statement can very well apply to The Ministry of Lost Souls, and its instrumental section. I love it, but to some people, it will be unlikable. I didn't mean it in absolute terms.

TGP, I didn't mean to make everybody gang up on you or to slam you for a minor linguistic issue or anything like that. However, it's not a good idea to insinuate that things that are obviously music aren't music, because people like me get upset.

Don't worry about it. I also enjoy a good debate. Although I'm fully expressing my opinion here, I do sometimes defend things I disagree with for the sake of being the devil's advocate.

But still, I mean, even in case of Pink Floyd. Yes, you could say, "if the artist says it's music, then it's music." But just because something is on an album, doesn't mean it's music. I mean, there are plenty of artists out there who include skits or interludes on their albums that either help to tell the story, or to set up the next song. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I still wouldn't say those things are a part of the music.
Or in some cases, those interludes are so short that they attach them to the actual songs. Look at the outro of Panic Attack on Octavarium. That's some funky stuff going on at the end there, but I wouldn't say it's a part of the music, I'd say it's just an interlude that takes us into the next song. Nothing wrong with it, but I really don't think even the band ever intended for that part to be considered 'music'. I could be wrong, but the point is, take Dark Side of the Moon again, I wouldn't call "Speak To Me" music, I'd call it an introduction to the album. A skit, so to speak that sets up the story.
And when it comes to The Wall, like I said, I haven't listened to it in its entirety. But my point is that (hypothetically) if an album is filled with skits and interludes that are 2+ minutes in length each, that could really break the pacing of the music. And from sheer description, that's what The Wall sounds like.
But even if it was music. For me, personally, tracks like On The Run have the same effect. Is it music? Yes. Is it interesting and exciting and makes me want to keep listening to it? No. I want to skip to Time. So if The Wall was filled with stuff like that, or stuff that's jam packed with samples, they'd have the same effect on me. But yes, I do acknowledge tracks like that as music.

[theseoafs]

Look at the outro of Panic Attack on Octavarium. That's some funky stuff going on at the end there, but I wouldn't say it's a part of the music

What would it be but music? It's sound, and it's organized. There's melody and rhythm. There are no words, so there's no chance of it being a "skit".

[TheGreatPretender]

What would it be but music? It's sound, and it's organized. There's melody and rhythm. There are no words, so there's no chance of it being a "skit".

I just see it as a segway. And I'd say a quite forced one at that. I mean, if it was a part of the song Panic Attack, why isn't that part sampled when they play it live?

Like I said (I think), even the intro to Bridges In The Sky I'd consider music. I mean, it starts off to a beat, and the voice is a chant of sorts. And look, they even go out of their way to play that part live, because yes, it's a part of the song. Just like the fade-in of As I Am, that tails from Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

Either way, my point is that not every second of sound on an album is considered music. Just because it's on the CD, doesn't mean it's music. I mean, after Finally Free fades out, do you honestly consider that little skit to be music? (Aside from the music that Nicholas actually puts on on his turntable.) But even that is pretty much just a part of the skit.

[theseoafs]

I mean, if it was a part of the song Panic Attack, why isn't that part sampled when they play it live?

Because it's not part of the song, it's a musical interlude between the two pieces. The fact that it's not a song doesn't make it not music.

[TheGreatPretender]

Because it's not part of the song, it's a musical interlude between the two pieces.

What about the Therapist at the beginning of Scenes From A Memory? I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the intro to that album. Even outside the context of the story, it's a great setup for a sweet listening experience. But all that time he's talking, before the guitar actually fades in, are you going to tell me that you consider the ticking clock and him talking to be 'music'?

The thing is, you can analyze it all you like, but going back to the end of Panic Attack. If that little musical interlude was isolated track of its own, or for whatever reason, I kept playing it on loop, maybe trying to examine what sounds they were using, or figuring out whether I heard something or not (hypotheticall), and someone walked in and said, "What are you listening to?" I'd say, "It's an interlude on one of Dream Theater's albums," I sure as hell wouldn't say, "It's music, duh!" or even, "I'm listening to Dream Theater."

[theseoafs]

Because it's not part of the song, it's a musical interlude between the two pieces.

What about the Therapist at the beginning of Scenes From A Memory? I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the intro to that album. Even outside the context of the story, it's a great setup for a sweet listening experience. But all that time he's talking, before the guitar actually fades in, are you going to tell me that you consider the ticking clock and him talking to be 'music'?

Sure, the clock provides rhythm, and the snippets (sounds) are organized in such a way as to elicit an emotional response (i.e. artistically). Sounds organized artistically = music.

HOWEVER, the skit at the end, you are correct, is not music, because it doesn't have any of the elements of music. We can call that a dramatic interlude rather than a musical one.

[TheGreatPretender]

Sure, the clock provides rhythm, and the snippets (sounds) are organized in such a way as to elicit an emotional response (i.e. artistically). Sounds organized artistically = music.

In theory, yes, I agree with you. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page before making my point which is: Like I said, if I was just listening to that one part, I honestly can't sit there and be like, "Golly, I'm listening to music!"

[theseoafs]

Sure, the clock provides rhythm, and the snippets (sounds) are organized in such a way as to elicit an emotional response (i.e. artistically). Sounds organized artistically = music.

In theory, yes, I agree with you. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page before making my point which is: Like I said, if I was just listening to that one part, I honestly can't sit there and be like, "Golly, I'm listening to music!"

That's a bummer, because it is!

[seasonsinthesky]

this is one of the tracks i'd consider 'perfectly' written by DT. everything feels like it can't be any other way (to me). that includes the slow fade-in and ending

i get why the fade is, basically, impractical for some listening situations — the car, for an example already cited — but if artists made their art with the common listening situations of the consumer public in mind, everything would sound like Nickelback: squashed, dynamic-less, loud at any volume, and completely lifeless.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's a bummer, because it is!

I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to be though. That's the thing. I'd say it's a skit. I mean, yes, the clock provides a rhythm. But it's a clock! It'd be pretty damn weird if the ticks were just random.
And so what if it provides an emotional response? A movie could (should) provide an emotional response. A painting can provide an emotional response. Heck, if you want to eliminate visuals, a radio play can provide an emotional response. Just because it does provide an emotional response, doesn't automatically mean that it's music.

Just because something fits the vague definition of music, doesn't make it music. You said that yourself about the Qu'ranic Recitation. Yes, by the most vague of a definition, the intro to Regression can be considered music, but I'm fairly certain that when writing it, JP (or whoever) didn't say, "The first piece of music is just gonna be a ticking clock and a guy talking, with some very quiet fade ins of Theresa and the intro to Home." I'm pretty sure that they didn't consider that part of Regression to be 'music'. Maybe a part of the song, a part of the overall artistic vision.

So, how long you wanna keep going on this tangent? 

i get why the fade is, basically, impractical for some listening situations — the car, for an example already cited — but if artists made their art with the common listening situations of the consumer public in mind, everything would sound like Nickelback: squashed, dynamic-less, loud at any volume, and completely lifeless.

I have nothing against the actual fade-in, I just think it takes a little too long. Like I said, for pretty much the first 10 seconds, the quiet volume of the fade-in doesn't change at all. I trimmed it today, and basically have the song fading in from about the 15 second mark, and faded it in from silence within about 5 seconds. And honestly, not only does it still retain the beautiful experience of the original intro, but it gets to the point a lot quicker, and with that, I'm actually going to be listening to the song a lot more now.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

no matter what, there will always be a part of every one of their songs that someone doesn't like.

Yes, and those people will time and again state how much they dislike those parts, just like I am.

Yes, but you're not only saying you dislike those parts, you're saying they're not music, which is what I'm arguing here.

I happen to enjoy the samples, so your argument of "adding an element that's not likable can make the song worse than not having that element at all" is invalid.

It's not invalid, it's just subjective. That statement can very well apply to The Ministry of Lost Souls, and its instrumental section. I love it, but to some people, it will be unlikable. I didn't mean it in absolute terms.[/quote]
But the fact that it's subjective is what makes it invalid because it doesn't make the song worse to everyone. You said it makes the song worse, but if that doesn't pertain to everyone, you cannot use it in your argument.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yes, but you're not only saying you dislike those parts, you're saying they're not music, which is what I'm arguing here.

No, what I originally said was that those parts are distracting me from the music. By which I meant the piano.

But the fact that it's subjective is what makes it invalid because it doesn't make the song worse to everyone. You said it makes the song worse, but if that doesn't pertain to everyone, you cannot use it in your argument.

Not really. It was my opinion, dude. Like I said, I think taking the samples out would make the song better. If somebody said, "Taking the instrumental section out of the Ministry of Lost Souls and just having it as a straight on Ballad would make the song better." I'd say I disagree... But I wouldn't say, "Your argument is invalid."

[KevShmev]

Yowza, I sure missed a lot since my last post.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, well, we were talking about Blind Faith, but then something I said was misunderstood, so we ended up having the great debate so that all misconceptions would disappear.

[KevShmev]

Exactly.

[Dream Team]

Love Blind Faith. The unison part is my favorite solo of all time. MP's drumming is genius during that part as well.

His playing is genius during the entire song and pretty much the entire album. This is the kind of playing I hope MM comes up with on the next album (and hopefully higher in the mix). Everytime I post an opinion like that someone jumps on me says "oh yeah mangenie can play circles around porntoy" blah blah whatever.

[GasparXR]

Yeah, well, we were talking about Blind Faith, but then something I said was misunderstood, so we ended up having the great debate so that all misconceptions would disappear.

I see what you did there. EDIT: I now stupidly realize you actually DID do that.  I thought it was a coincidence, and I completely missed TGD and Disappear

I rather enjoy this song -- whenever I think to myself that it's one of my favourites off of SDOIT, I quickly realize that the songs grouped into that category were all the songs off the album in the first place. That's why I prefer albums with more pieces rather than only 6, especially on albums like SDOIT and BC&SL. They're very difficult to seperate and pick favourites, at least for me. Anyway, it's what I consider one of their geniusely crafted pieces. The flow of the song is excellent, another song I often feel the same way about is Octavarium, but in much higher regards. The way the parts are ordered in Full Circle instrumental section are really great and concise, including the transition into Intervals.

[?]

Great song, not a single bad moment! I only wish there was a better performance on CIM...

[Jamariquay]

Blind Faith is such a great song that it can lead to a discussion on what the definition of music is.

[MetropolisWatches]

I'm sure I'm in the minority here- but I've always found Blind Faith to be the weakest track on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (including both discs).

[JoiseyDTLovah]

I wasn't familiar with Blind Faith until the CIM tour.  Saw it live and it's the only song that has ever made me cry at a concert . That piano solo.........and they way the band comes back in full on.  Few musicians can pull this stuff off so seamlessly.