A Discussion On Blind Faith

[TheGreatPretender]

Your ears or CD player must be broken.

Besides, after the slamming ending of The Glass Prison, that slow fade-in for Blind Faith is the perfect transition.

No, you know what the problem is? It starts off really quietly, then for 10 seconds, the volume stays the same, THEN it actually starts to fade in properly. And no, there's nothing wrong with my CD player or my ears, no need to be a jerk. But when I'm in the car, between the motor, and the wind from the open window, it's difficult to hear all the quiet stuff. Same thing when I'm on the Subway or out on the street. There's a lot of background noise.

Either way, that whole fade in takes 30 seconds, and that's too long for any song. My exact problem with Trial of Tears too.

[KevShmev]

  But when I'm in the car, between the motor, and the wind from the open window, it's difficult to hear all the quiet stuff. Same thing when I'm on the Subway or out on the street. There's a lot of background noise.
 

I guess dynamics in music are not your friend, then.

   

Either way, that whole fade in takes 30 seconds, and that's too long for any song. My exact problem with Trial of Tears too.

So, you dislike tension or any kind of build-up.  Got it.

[Gadough]

I'm still not sure if I like this song more than The Glass Prison, or the other way around.

[TheGreatPretender]

Everything in moderation. Dynamics is one thing. Keeping a part quiet for 10 seconds in a row is a little too much. Especially when that part is right at the beginning and I want to hear some actual music.

And yes, I do like tension or a buildup that's actually interesting, for example, the intro to In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even Bridges in the Sky, or Scarred.

Actually, you know what? I'm just gonna go ahead and edit my version of Blind Faith to start out a little quicker. I really don't know why I haven't done that before.

[Implode]

I feel your pain, though it only really bothers me with The Best of Times. If I'm listening to music on shuffle, and there's silence for like 10+ seconds, I know it's TBOT.

[OsMosis2259]

Never knew that the intro was a bass until I saw it live and on CiM. I hope I wasn't the only one lol

[TheGreatPretender]

I feel your pain, though it only really bothers me with The Best of Times. If I'm listening to music on shuffle, and there's silence for like 10+ seconds, I know it's TBOT.

Yeah, I edited that one too for myself. Actually, I edited it quite a bit, so now it just starts off with the piano version without the clock sound, plus I kept it from fading out at the end and had the entire guitar solo playing until the very end of the song, thanks to the stems.

[Implode]

I need to make a version a like.

[TheGreatPretender]

Never knew that the intro was a bass until I saw it live and on CiM. I hope I wasn't the only one lol

It's weird, because whenever I hear the song in my head, I always hear the intro as a bass, but for some reason when I actually listen to it, it sounds like piano to me.

[me7]

Also has the best unison ever.

+1

+1

+1, melodic and technical.

Every time I hear this song, I wish DT had more unisons like that.

[KevShmev]

Everything in moderation. Dynamics is one thing. Keeping a part quiet for 10 seconds in a row is a little too much. Especially when that part is right at the beginning and I want to hear some actual music.

You must absolutely hate the beginning of Dark Side of the Moon.

[TheGreatPretender]

You must absolutely hate the beginning of Dark Side of the Moon.

Don't even get me started, hahaha. I remember my first time listening to it. I get through Speak To Me, and Breathe comes on, and I'm like, "Geez, FINALLY!!!" And as soon as Breathe ends, On The Run comes on, and all I could think is, "What... The.... Fuck."

[Implode]

A while ago I was in an FYE, and there were a couple kids looking through some vinyls. One was saying, "Yeah. The Wall is way overrated. It actually kind of sucks. There's only three real songs on it. The rest is just sound clips."

[TheGreatPretender]

I've never actually listened to The Wall in its entirety, but after hearing Dark Side of the Moon, I can believe that.

[Elite]

Dark Side of the Moon is awesome
And The Wall isn't even close to being one of Floyd's better albums, precisely for that reason.

[Cable]

Dark Side of the Moon is awesome
And The Wall isn't even close to being one of Floyd's better albums, precisely for that reason.

??!?!     

In your opinion it is not close to being one of Floyd's "better" albums.

[theseoafs]

A while ago I was in an FYE, and there were a couple kids looking through some vinyls. One was saying, "Yeah. The Wall is way overrated. It actually kind of sucks. There's only three real songs on it. The rest is just sound clips."

Wrongness is humorous, is it not?

[KevShmev]

A while ago I was in an FYE, and there were a couple kids looking through some vinyls. One was saying, "Yeah. The Wall is way overrated. It actually kind of sucks. There's only three real songs on it. The rest is just sound clips."

Wrongness is humorous, is it not?

In this case, it certainly is, and it shows how brain dead people can be when it comes to concept albums.  Sure, on their own, some of the songs on The Wall might seem a bit lacking, just like some of the songs on The Who's Tommy, but in the context of the album, they all totally work and make complete sense.  One of the main themes of The Wall is the feeling of isolation, and many of the short songs convey that feeling wonderfully, and anyone who doesn't get that has completely missed the point of the album.

[TheGreatPretender]

I really don't wanna start a big debate, but I can't help but disagree. Listen to Scenes From A Memory. In spite of being a concept album, it's still jam packed with music all over. Same with Queensryche's concept albums. Every track is still a song. If the only way to enjoy an album is to get completely immersed into the storyline, sit there, paying attention to every little detail and try to understand how the 'character feels', I'd say that's a failed album. Especially for bands of the 70's and 80's, when the average album was no longer than 50 minutes. If 20 of those minutes are spent on samples or 10 second ambient loops that last for 3 minutes, then it seems like the band was just too lazy to write more music. But lazy or not, I think a good album should be enjoyable even if you're only paying attention to the music itself, and not really bothering with following the storyline.

Again, I'm not trying to exclude anyone. I think there's a place for everything in this world, that at least one band out there should do something that goes completely against at least one aspect that's considered good, or what's considered right. Enjoy it, by all means. But if someone thinks The Dark Side of the Moon, or The Wall sucks, because of their long interludes, they have every right to think that.

This is getting way off topic though, so let me just segway by saying that I'd take Blind Faith by itself over the entire Dark Side of the Moon, without question.

[KevShmev]

It's a good thing that your description there doesn't fit The Wall or Dark Side of the Moon, unless a listener wants to take the most shallow approach possible and simplify it to a point where it doesn't even make sense.

As for getting immersed in a storyline, that often makes albums or movies BETTER! But hey, I like things that make you think.  Simple stories can be great as well, but thinkers usually have more depth and meaning to them, which is why you often have to use your brain instead of the album or movie punching you in the face with the meaning.

[RuRoRul]

I really don't wanna start a big debate, but I can't help but disagree. Listen to Scenes From A Memory. In spite of being a concept album, it's still jam packed with music all over. Same with Queensryche's concept albums. Every track is still a song. If the only way to enjoy an album is to get completely immersed into the storyline, sit there, paying attention to every little detail and try to understand how the 'character feels', I'd say that's a failed album. Especially for bands of the 70's and 80's, when the average album was no longer than 50 minutes. If 20 of those minutes are spent on samples or 10 second ambient loops that last for 3 minutes, then it seems like the band was just too lazy to write more music. But lazy or not, I think a good album should be enjoyable even if you're only paying attention to the music itself, and not really bothering with following the storyline.

Again, I'm not trying to exclude anyone. I think there's a place for everything in this world, that at least one band out there should do something that goes completely against at least one aspect that's considered good, or what's considered right. Enjoy it, by all means. But if someone thinks The Dark Side of the Moon, or The Wall sucks, because of their long interludes, they have every right to think that.

This is getting way off topic though, so let me just segway by saying that I'd take Blind Faith by itself over the entire Dark Side of the Moon, without question.

Agreed. Except I don't really consider Regression or Through My Words to be full songs. But albums that are full of tracks that basically sound like nothing on their own, well, I find myself much less likely to get into them. Obviously if a band gets it to work then it works, but in general I think the much greater concept albums are ones that are made up of tracks that are great and at least feel complete on their own, but that come together to make something even better as a whole.

Edit: And I also agree that an album should be enjoyable just based on the music alone like you said.

[TheGreatPretender]

As for getting immersed in a storyline, that often makes albums or movies BETTER! But hey, I like things that make you think.  Simple stories can be great as well, but thinkers usually have more depth and meaning to them, which is why you often have to use your brain instead of the album or movie punching you in the face with the meaning.

There's a time and place for everything. It all depends on my mood. But look at The Matrix, okay? It's got a LOT of philosophy behind it, a lot of stuff to think about, and yes, that's a part of what makes it great. But if I really wanted to see something, just for its visual flair, just to enjoy some kick ass action sequences, special effects, and other cool imagery, you can still watch the Matrix and enjoy it for that. Therefore, it can serve both types of audiences. Or both types of moods.

Just the same for music. Yes, I love to put on Scenes From A Memory and just think about the characters and the story, and get emotionally connected with Victoria and all that stuff. But sometimes, I just wanna hear some pleasant melodies, kick ass riffs, and crazy instrumental solos. And in those cases, Scenes From A Memory can serve just as well.

Agreed. Except I don't really consider Regression or Through My Words to be full songs. Edit: And I also agree that an album should be enjoyable just based on the music alone like you said.

Right, that was my whole point. I mean, even if you don't consider Regression and Through My Words to be full songs, the whole point is that if you put the album on, and just let it play, it's still music. So it's still something to listen to beyond the storyline itself.

[theseoafs]

Right, that was my whole point. I mean, even if you don't consider Regression and Through My Words to be full songs, the whole point is that if you put the album on, and just let it play, it's still music.

I'm saying this with all due respect, TGP, and after reading most of your posts for a couple months now:

I don't think you know what music is. Music is organized sound; however, you seem not to take music seriously unless it comes out of a guitar, bass, drum, or keyboard.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Love Blind Faith. The unison part is my favorite solo of all time. MP's drumming is genius during that part as well.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm saying this with all due respect, TGP, and after reading most of your posts for a couple months now:

I don't think you know what music is. Music is organized sound; however, you seem not to take music seriously unless it comes out of a guitar, bass, drum, or keyboard.

Well, what do you want me to say? "Yes, I acknowledge this and that as music, I just think it's a crappy example of music?"

Aside from stuff like, this, what else are you referring to, exactly? Is this about the samples in SDV discussion that we had?
My definition of music is beat, rhythm, chords or melody, or any combination of them.

Putting a pre-recorded sample of someone talking over music doesn't make that sample a part of the actual music, unless it somehow at least fit the rhythm, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6oUz1v17Uo Which I think is awesome, even though it's pretty much all samples. They're at least arranged to match the rhythm. The way it's used in Space-Dye Vest, for example, even by your definition, apart from when that sample starts and how long it lasts, there's nothing organized about it. It certainly doesn't flow with the rhythm.

But honestly, to boil it down to something as simple as "organized sound" is way too vague. Music is subjective. I've heard someone tell me that they don't consider something music unless it can be written out on a musical staff. If that's their definition of music, I'm not going to argue with it. Like I said, my definition of music involves beat, rhythm, chords or melody. Or any combination of the sort. And yes, by that definition, tracks like "On The Run" is by all means music. But like I said, I just think it's a boring, uninteresting example of music, especially coming from a rock band.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Well, it's still art, whether you think it's musical or not.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, it's still art, whether you think it's musical or not.

You're right. But I've seen a painting that was a little brown square on a large white canvas. It's still art. And to some people, it could represent how alienated racial minorities feel in a predominately white society. But I just see a boring, lazy painting. I'm not saying it's not art, I'm just saying that I wouldn't say it's worth my money to own or even see something like that in a museum.

[theseoafs]

Music is subjective.

Nope! A lot of people think that it's up to them what qualifies as music, but that's not the case. Generally, here's what you need to identify something as music:

1) Music has to consist of organized sound and silence; that is, it's sound that was organized by an artist. Contrary to your belief, yes, the samples in SDV are organized because they were recorded and then placed in a particular place in the recording. That's organization. Rhythm, by the way, is not an essential part of music; it's called free rhythm when music has no pulse. Chords and melody are also not a requirement of music, but that should be obvious (you've seen bucket drummers in the city play music, have you not?).
2) The organized sound has to be played by a musician who considers it to be music. The obvious example everyone brings up here is Qu'ranic Recitation, which sounds like music to Western ears but can't be called music because music has a somewhat offensive connotation in many parts of the Islamic world.

Musicology lessons aside, why am I bringing this up? Honestly, I just think you're missing out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore everything that isn't melodic. That's all. You can disagree with me in that regard if you want.

Well, it's still art, whether you think it's musical or not.

Again, musicalness is not up for debate.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

But isn't that was prog is? Not limiting yourself to "the rules of music"?

[theseoafs]

Are you talking to me?

[TheGreatPretender]

Honestly, I just think you're missing out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore everything that isn't melodic. That's all. You can disagree with me in that regard if you want.

Dude, I WISH you were right. Honestly, if I could just say, "I don't think the samples in SDV are considered a part of the music, so I ignore them." That'd be a different story entirely. The point is that I can't ignore them, and they distract me from the piano and I don't like it. If you want, I can acknowledge that they're a part of the music, but that's not going to change how I feel about them. I mean, look at The Ministry of Lost Souls. Many people (you might be among them, I can't remember) are gonna say that they hate the instrumental section and how it stands out and they'd like the song better if that section was cut out all together. Well, the band wanted that part to be left in, and it's a part of the music. But if people don't like it, then they don't like it. That can't be helped. Many people on here dislike stuff like The Dance of Eternity, calling it 'instrumental wankery', which, frankly, I don't much care for the term. But personally, I love parts like that within DT's music, whether it's an actual part of a song like in TMOLS or by itself like TDOE.
Yes, I'm sure I'd be a much happier human being if I could actually enjoy the samples in SDV and Honor Thy Father. And enjoy long, overly drawn out intros like The Great Debate or interludes like On The Run, but I'm just not into those sorts of things.

Also: Just to clarify what I said earlier, I never said that rhythm was an essential part of music. I mean Rhythm OR beat OR chords OR melody. Or a combination. So yes, a beat by itself is still music like the street drummers. A chord is music. Rhythm, even someone rapping A Capella I'd consider music. Anyway, that's besides the point, I was just clarifying.

[theseoafs]

Also: Just to clarify what I said earlier, I never said that rhythm was an essential part of music. I mean Rhythm OR beat OR chords OR melody. Or a combination. So yes, a beat by itself is still music like the street drummers. A chord is music. Rhythm, even someone rapping A Capella I'd consider music. Anyway, that's besides the point, I was just clarifying.

Still wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%2733%22

[TheGreatPretender]

Still wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%2733%22

Oh give me a break. 

[theseoafs]

 

[Implode]

Then would an accurate definition of music be any form of artistic aural expression?