The Systematic Chaos Appreciation (and explanation of disappreciation) Thread

[Trav86]

At first I only liked the first half. Then I grew to enjoy the second half. Now I find the entire second half plodding and boring.

I really enjoy the first 4 tracks though. But over time I barely listen to this album anymore.

The first half is money. ITPOE is cool altogether, but I can take the first part by itself just fine. It kicked ass on the last tour.

[Kotowboy]

Part 1 should have opened the album for sure. But Part II should have been something else. I don't like the instrumental section in it either.

The whole album is just Ehhhhhhh. ( imo of course ) and a poor follow up to Octavarium.

Black Clouds has two fewer tracks but is a much more enjoyable album overall I think..

Octavarium is my favourite album and Systematic my least favourite.

Also Score is a great concert video and Chaos In Motion is not.

[svisser]

Part 1 should have opened the album for sure. But Part II should have been something else. I don't like the instrumental section in it either.

The whole album is just Ehhhhhhh. ( imo of course ) and a poor follow up to Octavarium.

Black Clouds has two fewer tracks but is a much more enjoyable album overall I think..

Octavarium is my favourite album and Systematic my least favourite.

Also Score is a great concert video and Chaos In Motion is not.

It was the awful mix that did it for me. It is a good memory though because I saw them in Vancouver on that tour.

[Cool Chris]

I love ItPoE pts 1 and 2 and Ministry.
I like Forsaken and PoW quite a bit.
I drank TDEN and CM in the bottom 10 songs in their discography
I think the first part of Repentance is fine, the second half could be my least favorite section of any DT song.

I have no idea what to make of this album sometimes.

Also Score is a great concert video and Chaos In Motion is not.

Whoa, slow down there Jimmy, where do you get off posting such a hot take? 

[svisser]

I love ItPoE pts 1 and 2 and Ministry.
I like Forsaken and PoW quite a bit.
I drank TDEN and CM in the bottom 10 songs in their discography
I think the first part of Repentance is fine, the second half could be my least favorite section of any DT song.

I have no idea what to make of this album sometimes.

I know the feeling too. Even though I think pretty highly of this album, if I take too much time and really think about, it gets a bit ridiculous. Like I said before, I conciser it their fun album. There is just something about it that makes it enjoyable to listen too. It might be the lyrical content, or the production, or the absurd songs. It just always stuck me as a fun album.

[hefdaddy42]

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it.

I don't even understand what you mean about that.  What is there to buy into?

Maybe that’s not the best way to phrase it. What I mean is I’ve never really thought of it as a suite in the same way I do SDOIT or A Mind Beside Itself. I don’t think of the songs of how they fit with the other songs, or care about listening to them back to back. And how they “flow” with each other. Nor do I have any desire to hear them all played together like some people have talked about before.
I gave my opinion on Repentance and The Shattered Fortress earlier. I will say the first three songs are great, but the idea that they go together rarely crosses my mind when listening to them.

Obviously this is my opinion but that’s what I meant.

Well, the big difference is that the other pieces you mentioned were presented as one piece, consecutively, on their respective albums, while this suite was spread across five albums.

If it had been presented as one piece, would you still regard it differently than those others?

[Trav86]

Well, the big difference is that the other pieces you mentioned were presented as one piece, consecutively, on their respective albums, while this suite was spread across five albums.

If it had been presented as one piece, would you still regard it differently than those others?

Obviously, no. But those other songs were written as one piece. The 12 Step songs are separate songs, written separately over the course of like 7-8 years.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, the big difference is that the other pieces you mentioned were presented as one piece, consecutively, on their respective albums, while this suite was spread across five albums.

If it had been presented as one piece, would you still regard it differently than those others?

Obviously, no. But those other songs were written as one piece. The 12 Step songs are separate songs, written separately over the course of like 7-8 years.

I guess.  I mean, with each one, they were written kind of one at a time, no matter how long it took.

I don't know, I just don't see the problem with it.  I don't even understand HAVING a problem with it.  Each one is obviously a continuation/progression from the ones that came before, with The Shattered Fortress being the obvious conclusion.  I just don't get your issue.

Which is fine, of course.

[Trav86]

I don’t have a problem or issue with it necessarily. I guess I never made a big deal over these songs being one big thing the way most fans have.

And I’m really just picking at the songs to justify my feelings.

It’s a “me” problem for sure lol. I have nothing against the whole thing, or anyone who thinks it’s awesome.

[darkshade]

SC followed up Octavarium well, and once again something different than what preceded. Not their best album, but far from their worst at this point. People talk about the band's new album A View as fresh, but Systematic Chaos is truly what sounds like a band not resting on their laurels and putting out something new for them, while still retaining their own identity. I think SC is a step down from their previous efforts, as I don't like the track order, think POW is a bad song, and TMOLS has never been a favorite. I think the flow of the album is mostly good until after TDEN and then things seem to lose focus. I don't like split of ITPOE either. I like Repentance but I like it better in the context of the 12SS. Overall, I feel like the majority of the Mangini era borrows from this album a lot, with dash of IaW without the early 90s production, and I even heard some SC stuff on LTEƎ. BC&SL is better.

[Kotowboy]

I used to go back and forth between which album I liked more - Systematic or Black Clouds but now I firmly think Black Clouds is the superior album.

Even though Nightmare is too long...I think Wither is better than Forsaken. I prefer Shattered Fortress to Dark Eternal Night and think The Count of Tuscany is

a much better epic overall than In The Presence of Enemies. Plus The Best of Times has an amazing three minute outro solo.

[AVFTTOTW]

I love ITPOE (especially pt 2) and TDEN (despite the cringe lyrics), the rest of SC is not their best work though.

[TAC]

I have always loved Prophet Of War. People complain about things as DT by Numbers, and PoW is anything but.
People want DT to branch out, but then again, do they really?

[lovethedrake]

A good song is a good song… dream theater can branch out and also make it a song people like.

Most people loved three days and that song was weird as hell and super theatrical.

I personally don’t mind POW as I don’t find it any worse or better then the rest of the album.  It’s one of my least favorite albums by them.

[Dedalus]

I have always loved Prophet Of War. People complain about things as DT by Numbers, and PoW is anything but.
People want DT to branch out, but then again, do they really?

Considering that every little attempt has been vigorously defenestrated, I would say no. They don't.

[Kotowboy]

" We want another concept album "

Here You Go.

" Not like THAT go back to your classic sound "

Here you Are.

" OMG this is just same old same old "

[hefdaddy42]

I think POW is an awful, awful song.

But if they felt that was the song they needed to make, then I'm glad they made it, whether I like it or not.

But I hate it.

[Trav86]

I think POW is an awful, awful song.

But if they felt that was the song they needed to make, then I'm glad they made it, whether I like it or not.

But I hate it.

See, this is how fans should be. “I hate your song, but I'm happy for you!”   

[Lonk]

I like PoW, I think it's a fun song.

This album was the first release since I learned about DT. I was fresh out of high school and knew a few DT songs (PMU, ITNOG, AIA and Panic Attack). Didn't listen to the whole album then, but I liked the few songs I heard (CM, PoW and Forsaken). I don't listen to it as much nowadays, but it's mainly because of how strong the rest of their discography is, not because it's a bad album.

[oceanic156]

I didn't like SC when it first released, and I can't say it's aged well for me. My least favorite DT album for sure. The only song I like going back to is Ministry of Lost Souls, which has some some atmosphere and a very interesting melodic progression. As for the rest... well, Dark Eternal Night for example might be the least enjoyable DT song ever for me. An obnoxious lead riff, silly lyrics, and a really unflattering vocal performance from JLB and Portnoy. It's weird because I LOVE heavy DT, especially on Train of Thought. As I Am, In the Name of God, etc, those are emotive, incredible metal songs. Constant Motion and TDEN sound like parodies by comparison.

ITPoE is also my least favorite epic from the band. I still smirk at the 'Dark masterrr' delivery in Part II. The whole album has these strange, almost juvenile vocal and compositional choices. I don't know what they were thinking with some of these tracks.

The band's nadir for me. Fortunately, they REALLY bounced back with the Mangini era. DoT and View have some of their best work ever IMO.

[Trav86]

It was their first where I felt I should like it more than I actually did.

[TAC]

I didn't like SC when it first released, and I can't say it's aged well for me. My least favorite DT album for sure. The only song I like going back to is Ministry of Lost Souls, which has some some atmosphere and a very interesting melodic progression. As for the rest... well, Dark Eternal Night for example might be the least enjoyable DT song ever for me. An obnoxious lead riff, silly lyrics, and a really unflattering vocal performance from JLB and Portnoy. It's weird because I LOVE heavy DT, especially on Train of Thought. As I Am, In the Name of God, etc, those are emotive, incredible metal songs. Constant Motion and TDEN sound like parodies by comparison.

ITPoE is also my least favorite epic from the band. I still smirk at the 'Dark masterrr' delivery in Part II. The whole album has these strange, almost juvenile vocal and compositional choices. I don't know what they were thinking with some of these tracks.

The band's nadir for me. Fortunately, they REALLY bounced back with the Mangini era. DoT and View have some of their best work ever IMO.

SC is the band's "fuck it" album. I also think it has more variety than any other album save for 8V. Not every song is a hit. But the band, to me, has had misses on pretty much every album.

I think POW is an awful, awful song.

But if they felt that was the song they needed to make, then I'm glad they made it, whether I like it or not.

But I hate it.

See, this is how fans should be. “I hate your song, but I'm happy for you!”   

This is kind of how I feel about Repentance. I totally appreciate the song. I find it incredibly experimental.

[svisser]

Imagine if they played the entire album on tour in 2022. I mean, it would be the 15 years anniversary.

[Architeuthis]

Imagine if they played the entire album on tour in 2022. I mean, it would be the 15 years anniversary.

I would go to that show, as long as they skipped Repentance.. 

[Kyo]

Imagine if they played the entire album on tour in 2022. I mean, it would be the 15 years anniversary.

There is a lot of material from the post-SfaM period that hasn't been played live in 10 or 15 years, so even if they were to stop neglecting that time period, they're not going to use 80 minutes of their set for one of their least popular albums. It's 13th out of 15 on ProgArchives, 11th on Rate Your Music, and the last poll I saw around here had it in the second-to-last spot. In all cases it was the lowest-rated one from the "classic" lineup (i.e. with LaBrie and Portnoy).

[Trav86]

Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.

[Architeuthis]

Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.

I would think Octavarium would be most likely. I high point in their career and Score standing alone as a live release.

[hefdaddy42]

Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.

I kind of doubt it.

[svisser]

Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.

I think closest to that would be hearing Six Degrees.

[Dedalus]

Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.

I kind of doubt it.

This.  DT has only three classics and has played them all in their entirety.

I&W
SFAM
TA

OK, I'm kidding about the last one. No hysterical reaction is needed.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Systematic Chaos holds a special place in my heart because it was the first Dream Theater album that was released after I became a fan. I think it has some great songs but as an overall album is one of their weakest. On your typical tier list (S, A, B, C, D, F) I'd probably slot it under "C" in terms of Dream Theater albums.

[Trav86]

Nostalgia and what was going on in my life at the time of an albums release, always plays a large role in how I feel about said album.

[svisser]

I feel that towards Train Of Thought. It was not my first album of theirs. That was Octavarium. But the Budokan dvd was the first time I ever heard DT music and most of the tracks were on that live album. So TOT, even though it is not their best, will always be special to me.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

ITPOE is one of the best songs they've ever written, so to that extent I am grateful for SC. However, I don't go to that album for much else.

[gzarruk]

ITPOE is one of the best songs they've ever written, so to that extent I am grateful for SC. However, I don't go to that album for much else.

Such an underrated gem. Maybe if they released it as one track only (it is one song after all) people would appreciate it more.