The Systematic Chaos Appreciation (and explanation of disappreciation) Thread

[cramx3]

I'm a big fan of pt1 and not as big of a fan of pt2 so I think the split worked well too, I would love to see them open a show or seceond set with pt1.

[DTA]

I'd rank SC near the bottom of the my fav DT albums (only 8VM and BC&SL rank lower). but I still find it to be a pretty fun album to listen to. The drum sound bothers me as the cymbals have no depth or "cut" to them and the drums themselves feel somehow overly loud yet lacking any sort of natural echo/ambience.

I'm glad they split up the epic as both parts work well as separate songs and the bookend vibe of an album is always satisfying. I like this song a lot and Part 2's back-half is a lot of fun but it contains the same type of bland heavy riff that is also in Ministry and Constant Motion.

Forsaken is harmless and pretty enjoyable. I like this one a lot.

Constant Motion is my first disliked track. Way too much MP going on and the song is bland musically. Plus the boring reused odd-time heavy riff reappears.

I like The Dark Eternal Night as it obviously meant to be a sort of Metropolis-type wacky middle instrumental song. The vocal effect in the verse is cool and the instrumental section is awesome.

Repentance. Reduce it to like 6 minutes and it's a great song. Way too long (my complaint with every DT album from Six Degrees to Black Clouds) and too much repetition to make a long song rather than new ideas being the cause of the lengthiness.

Everyone hates Prophets of War but I like it. The Muse vibe reappears but it bugs me less on this song than it did on Never Enough.

Ministry. I like the first half and wish the instrumental section kept the same sort of vibe rather than going off like a typical DT instrumental section at that time. The stupid odd-time guitar riff makes another appearance. Imagine a dark, moody instrumental section instead of the one we got. It'd be pretty different for them and elevate Ministry into a pretty unique song but it's just Sacrificed Sons Pt. 2.

I have a lot of complaints about this album (most of them being bland heavy riffs and lack of editing and good production), but it's still listenable and I enjoy it for the most part.

[jayvee3]

Definitely a better album than often given credit for - It's towards the end of my DT album ranking, but has aged pretty well and does have its own unique feel to it. The "Monster" subject matter is a bit over the top and corny, but the music seems to go along with this and never take itself too seriously. It also makes for a good vibe of being like a mini concept album that really isn't, but has the vampires, beasts and demons spanning over the course of the album.

ITPOE is a great underrated epic, there are some top riffs and melodies, but for me, it seems Portnoy started trying to take over a bit much here and the result was a lot of inconsistent moments and for me the worst track in the catalogue in Repentance, which I just can't listen to. Still a better album than the one that came after it for me - BCASL I felt was a real misfire bar a few moments. But SC has many cool moments that I still really enjoy, they just have much better albums overall in their catalogue.

[RoeDent]

For what it's worth, I think Repentance is exactly as long as it needs to be. It certainly offers more of a breather than Vacant does on Train of Thought. After some heavy and intense music you want a bit of a breather. Plus the chord progression on the final 3 minutes of Repentance is gorgeous, and worth hearing the three times we do hear it.

[RAIN]

The biggest issue I have is that they split In the Presence of Enemies into two parts.  Fortunately with editing software and modern players, we can fix these things.  I put them back together, and dropped the way too long pause as well...just shortened it up, and now it's a GLORIOUS 25 minute opening song, which really would have been a bold ballsy move, which is what they should  have done.  If memory serves, that is one thing they considered back when, and they should have done it.
I'm good, I have my version.

[KevShmev]

I think it works better how it ended up, as two songs. 

[bosk1]

This is the only DT album where I did my own track list where I removed some songs and rearranged the order.  I listen to ITPOE as one song.  But I respect the artistic decision to split it up, and I think it was a cool idea.

[gzarruk]

It works well for the album (killer opener + killer closer), but the song suffers because of it, as many people don't see it as the big, 25 minute epic that it is. Something similar happened with SDOIT (the song).

[cramx3]

I'm good with the split because pt1 is insanely better than pt2 and also because the intro is an awesome album opener and I guess the outro works well for an album ender.  I just wish I enjoyed pt2 more.  I do get Pt2 feeling when I listen to PBD although I'm enjoying that much more.

[MetropolisWatches]

I remember SC was generally disliked when released, but seems to be more appreciated by the fanbase over time. The album has aged well and gotten better-- I go back to it way more than BC&SL (DT's worst overall album in my opinion).

I enjoyed it when it first came out (I bought the fantastic special edition with the 5.1 mix/'making of' documentary dvd), but was kind of disappointed in the direction DT took musically and lyrically. In the Presence of Enemies was always fantastic. Repentance also contains one of JP's greatest guitar solos of all time. Prophets of War is still the worst tune, and one of weakest tracks in the entire DT discography.

[Trav86]

I think the Bosk description of Repentance is the best I’ve heard. I agree completely, and pretty much have always felt that way about it.

[DT1138]

Considering I entered the DT party between TOT and Octavarium, this is my favorite DT album.   

I bought the version with the "making of" DVD and loved the documentary.  I can never listen to Forsaken without thinking of JP screwing up on the solo and saying "That sucked!" without laughing.

BCSL felt like a let down after SC, even though I like a lot of the songs on that album (but hate the sound quality).

I will say that Repentance is a mixed bag for me.  I like the song, love JP's thoughtful solo, but I am not crazy about is the part when everyone is all talking over each other about what they regret, etc. and also MP's low harmonized speech afterward. But hey, that's what audio editors are for. 

I'm fine with ITPOE being split in two, I like part 1 more than 2 though.

TMOLS goes a little long, but I love JP's outro solo.

Minor complaints really...it just resonates with me for some reason.

[Infinite Cactus]

I really like a majority of the album. Repentance and ITPOE 2 are too long. And though I've tried to enjoy it over the years. The Ministry of Lost souls is the worst song the band ever did. It's a fun album that overstays it's welcome

[Fritzinger]

I really like a majority of the album. Repentance and ITPOE 2 are too long. And though I've tried to enjoy it over the years. The Ministry of Lost souls is the worst song the band ever did. It's a fun album that overstays it's welcome

So you like the "majority", and then proceed to bash like 43 of its 78 minutes? 

[Infinite Cactus]

I like most of Repentance and ITPOE 2. I just feel like there's an extra 2 or three minutes were they overstay their welcome. I love ITPOE 1, Constant Motion, TDEN, POW. The rest I consider above average, though far from perfect. I only actively dislike the one song.

[lovethedrake]

I can’t remember if I already posted on this thread but...

When I first got into dream theater I was a huge Styx fan... yes I admit it and I was only 15 years.   Still a guilty pleasure of mine. 

Anyways, images and words was basically Styx with balls... it was like aor magic combined with Metallica and genesis. 

SC just had absolutely NONE of the aor/Styx vibe and it’s easily james’ worst album because of it.  That is where James shines.  The vocal production is cold and stale.

D/T is finally back to the James of old!   Really since DT12 James has been returning to form.

[adamack]

It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.

ITPOE (1+2): I feel like this song has aged incredibly well. Not to say it was ever hated, but I see so much love for it these days. I'm always seeing requests for it on reaction channels, and lots of praise elsewhere. Maybe not considered their best epic, but when in the company of Octavarium, SDOIT, and ACOS that isn't really saying much. This is almost ONE THIRD of the album right here

Forsaken: I actually think that, for one of their more "commercial" tunes, this song is pretty well-received. It seems like it has gained a bit more respect over the years. It seems like a song that everyone would bash, but I see generally positive vibes about it. I love it personally - great chorus and what an awesome little solo by JP.

Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.

TDEN: Admittedly not a personal favorite, but again - I see a lot of love for this song, and trying to gauge how others see this album is what this post is about. I have actually seen people with this song in their top 5! Respectable, since this song is very experimental and I like that about it. Also - does anyone else feel like this song pops up on a lot of their set lists? If it was truly hated, they'd probably never/rarely play it. So I think it's another net positive.

Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.

POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!

TMOLS: And here it is. This is the song that makes or breaks the album for most people. The range between hate and love for this song may just be the largest of any DT song. It's a mini-epic, so it makes up a big chunk of this album. If this song was universally loved (or even loved to the extent of a song like "The Count of Tuscany" is), I believe that alone would project this album into the middle of the pack for most DT fans. I absolutely love this song (best outro ever! And possibly my favorite chord progression), but MANY hate it. I think a big reason is due to the slow tempo of the first half of the song.


Overall, I rank this album somewhere around 7th or 8th. There are days that I rank it above Octavarium, and it's DEFINITELY ahead of DT12, TA, D/T, FIF, and WDADU. I can see how this album will probably never be anyone's #1 favorite, but it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.

[lovethedrake]

It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.

ITPOE (1+2): I feel like this song has aged incredibly well. Not to say it was ever hated, but I see so much love for it these days. I'm always seeing requests for it on reaction channels, and lots of praise elsewhere. Maybe not considered their best epic, but when in the company of Octavarium, SDOIT, and ACOS that isn't really saying much. This is almost ONE THIRD of the album right here

Forsaken: I actually think that, for one of their more "commercial" tunes, this song is pretty well-received. It seems like it has gained a bit more respect over the years. It seems like a song that everyone would bash, but I see generally positive vibes about it. I love it personally - great chorus and what an awesome little solo by JP.

Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.

TDEN: Admittedly not a personal favorite, but again - I see a lot of love for this song, and trying to gauge how others see this album is what this post is about. I have actually seen people with this song in their top 5! Respectable, since this song is very experimental and I like that about it. Also - does anyone else feel like this song pops up on a lot of their set lists? If it was truly hated, they'd probably never/rarely play it. So I think it's another net positive.

Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.

POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!

TMOLS: And here it is. This is the song that makes or breaks the album for most people. The range between hate and love for this song may just be the largest of any DT song. It's a mini-epic, so it makes up a big chunk of this album. If this song was universally loved (or even loved to the extent of a song like "The Count of Tuscany" is), I believe that alone would project this album into the middle of the pack for most DT fans. I absolutely love this song (best outro ever! And possibly my favorite chord progression), but MANY hate it. I think a big reason is due to the slow tempo of the first half of the song.


Overall, I rank this album somewhere around 7th or 8th. There are days that I rank it above Octavarium, and it's DEFINITELY ahead of DT12, TA, D/T, FIF, and WDADU. I can see how this album will probably never be anyone's #1 favorite, but it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.

Production... it’s just not that enjoyable to listen to imo.

[bosk1]

It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.

ITPOE (1+2): I feel like this song has aged incredibly well. Not to say it was ever hated, but I see so much love for it these days. I'm always seeing requests for it on reaction channels, and lots of praise elsewhere. Maybe not considered their best epic, but when in the company of Octavarium, SDOIT, and ACOS that isn't really saying much. This is almost ONE THIRD of the album right here

Forsaken: I actually think that, for one of their more "commercial" tunes, this song is pretty well-received. It seems like it has gained a bit more respect over the years. It seems like a song that everyone would bash, but I see generally positive vibes about it. I love it personally - great chorus and what an awesome little solo by JP.

Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.

TDEN: Admittedly not a personal favorite, but again - I see a lot of love for this song, and trying to gauge how others see this album is what this post is about. I have actually seen people with this song in their top 5! Respectable, since this song is very experimental and I like that about it. Also - does anyone else feel like this song pops up on a lot of their set lists? If it was truly hated, they'd probably never/rarely play it. So I think it's another net positive.

Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.

POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!

TMOLS: And here it is. This is the song that makes or breaks the album for most people. The range between hate and love for this song may just be the largest of any DT song. It's a mini-epic, so it makes up a big chunk of this album. If this song was universally loved (or even loved to the extent of a song like "The Count of Tuscany" is), I believe that alone would project this album into the middle of the pack for most DT fans. I absolutely love this song (best outro ever! And possibly my favorite chord progression), but MANY hate it. I think a big reason is due to the slow tempo of the first half of the song.


Overall, I rank this album somewhere around 7th or 8th. There are days that I rank it above Octavarium, and it's DEFINITELY ahead of DT12, TA, D/T, FIF, and WDADU. I can see how this album will probably never be anyone's #1 favorite, but it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.

no

[Aitania]

Considering SC was the album that got me into DT I am very fond of it!
I can understand some of the criticism, but I still think that it's a fun album with lots of amazing moments overall. With that being said I do tend to skip Repentance and TMOLS. I don't think they're bad songs, but I'm somehow not in the mood to listen to them very often.
One super nitpicky thing that I have been thinking about ever since I watched the "making of" is that I'm a bit bitter that the vocal melody JLB did for the "To the ends of the earth" part in Forsaken didn't end up on the album. It was much better IMO. It's no big deal, but everytime I listen to Forsaken I'm just reminded of that.
But yeah, I still really like it!

[smegolas]

I just dont get the hate for Prophets of War.  I love every part of it - the highlight of an otherwise sub par album for me.  Wish DT would do more straight ahead rockers like it.

[DoctorAction]

ITPOE is fun in a silly metal way. But that's it. I never play this record. The cover art and title are the best things about it.

[darkshade]

If it was just

ITPOE1
TMOLS
ITPOE2

I would consider it a masterpiece, one of the best progressive metal albums of all time.

[bosk1]

I would agree with you.  ...if you took out TMOLS and added Forsaken, Constant Motion, and The Dark Eternal Night.

[gzarruk]

I just dont get the hate for Prophets of War.  I love every part of it - the highlight of an otherwise sub par album for me.  Wish DT would do more straight ahead rockers like it.

It's not a bad song, really, it just doesn't sound too much like a "DT" song, and those high pitched vocals Mike added... just no.

[darkshade]

I would agree with you.  ...if you took out TMOLS and added Forsaken, Constant Motion, and The Dark Eternal Night.

I like all those songs, but I'm imagining it as if DT's discography came out during the 70s and 80s or the band were 'less is more' when it came to how much music to release at once.

[RAIN]

It's not a bad song, really, it just doesn't sound too much like a "DT" song, and those high pitched vocals Mike added... just no.

Yet that's one of the best parts...  Opinions, right? 

[ytserush]

It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.


Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.


Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.

POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!

... it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.

Not difficult for me at all.  It's a sonic disaster and difficult to listen to all the way though in spite it.
It's the only Dream Theater album that has that effect on me.
The lyrics to the cartoon metal songs are Astonishing-level bad.
Don't think too highly of the direct references to the Korean comic or manga or whatever it was either.

That said, I do like the three songs above, especially Prophets Of War.

[SleeperAwake]

As an album it's all over the place. High highs, low lows. ITPOE is mostly great, though the solo section does nothing for me. Forsaken and POW are very good, Constant Motion is ok.

Repentance is good, except for the spoken apologies that make the song several minutes longer than it needs to be. TMOLS... the first half drags, the second half dulls. And TDEN is one of their worst songs.

[CrimsonSunrise]

I just dont get the hate for Prophets of War.  I love every part of it.  Wish DT would do more straight ahead rockers like it.

I agree 1000%.  Systematic Chaos is one of my least favorite DT albums but I started re-visiting it the other day.  It's been awhile since I've given it a good listen.  ITPOE pt 1 is awesome, pt 2, not so much for me.  Constant motion is probably my 2nd least favorite DT song....ever.  While on the other end of the spectrum POW is an awesome song, and like you I don't quite get the hate for it.

TDEN still rocks and I still love TMOLS.

[Architeuthis]

I recently came across the authentic guitar tab edition book for Systematic Chaos at my local music store.  I've been learning some of Constant Motion pretty much up through the first chorus.  I'll tell you what, that intro is a mind bender and takes some practice to get it smooth.

I was laughing the other day because I watched part of the Making of SC dvd to see how JP did the fingering on that riff, and Jordan was jamming along with him playing that same riff in unison with his right hand while sipping on a cup of coffee from his left.  All too easy... 

[pg1067]

Since someone else bumped this thread....

It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.

Well...ummm...you seem to be baffled about the album being "generally considered one of [DT's] wrorst," but your support for that seems only to be that you like it better than what you perceive to be the consensus.

Since you gave your subjective opinions on each song, I'll do likewise and explain why, for me, SC is a bottom three DT album:

ITPOE:  I was disappointed by this song in a matter of a couple minutes.  I remember the first time I listened to this song.  I thought the intro section was cool.  And then, just when I thought it ought to be wrapping up, JR and JP went into ultra-wank mode.  The song never recovered.  It's long and bland and has little that I find interesting.  And one of the worst parts about listening to SC is knowing the second part is looming at the end (sort of like having to answer an essay question after having slogged through 100 multiple choice questions on a test).

Forsaken:  It's fine.  Nothing objectionable about it, but it's also not terribly memorable.

Constant Motion:  Great song.  Love it.  Only bad comment is about the second, scratchy-sounding verse.

The Dark Eternal Night:  My opinion changes about this with some regularity.  I've never thought it was great.  Parts of it are good.  Parts are silly.  The fact that it was easily spliced into a Mario run through says a lot ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-QGtEIHc3g&t=46s ).  It's a bit better live than on the album.

Repentance:  This remains my absolute #1 worst DT song of all time.  I find nothing redeeming about this song.  I think you have overestimated how it is regarded by "most fans."

Prophets of War:  It's well below average, but I don't think I dislike it as much as a lot of folks here.

The Ministry of Lost Souls:  I never liked this song and really still don't.  However, a re-listen a while back showed that the song isn't as bad as I thought.  So...the nicest thing I can say about it is that I don't dislike it as much as I had thought.

So...there you go.  For every other DT album (save TA), there are multiple songs that are great (even FII has five songs that I think are at least really good).  However, if I were making any sort of DT playlist, CM is the only song that would make the cut.

[Architeuthis]

I agree about Repentance, that song just never did anything to get my attention.  Just dark, dull, and boring.
As far as the rest of the songs, Systematic Chaos is a fantastic album! 

[Northern Lion]

I agree about Repentance, that song just never did anything to get my attention.  Just dark, dull, and boring.
As far as the rest of the songs, Systematic Chaos is a fantastic album! 

I agree.  I don't like Repentance very much either and I also don't really care for CM.  But other than that I love the rest of the songs.  And ITPoE is my favorite DT song.

[TAC]

So regarding Repentance...

I know SC gets a lot of grief, but it might be the DT album that has the most variety.

I personally don't listen to Repentance a lot, but I respect the hell out of it. It has a a total Pink Floyd vibe. I love the distorted spoken words parts and it has an amazing and underrated JP solo. I also think the lyrics are excellent.