Author Topic: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany  (Read 16635 times)

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Offline Omega

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2012, 11:29:30 AM »
Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself."

This is such utter junk, it's unfathomable. Sorry dude, seriously. Cutting hair != circumcision.

rumborak

That's entire the point. It's a reductio ad absurdum.
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Online rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #71 on: July 04, 2012, 11:30:21 AM »
Which works *marvelously* when discussing culture  :\
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2012, 11:32:34 AM »
Then feel free to provide them.

Most of these cultures are Islamic, actually. I don't believe there is an Islamic text that mandates female genital mutilation (but I could be wrong). If I'm not mistaken, they're actually basing their concept of female circumcision off the Jewish concept of male circumcision; "if it's so important for males to be circumcised, we should make sure to cut off a piece of our women's junk too!!!"

Also, I don't think they should be banned from doing female circumcision either mind you. If the culture wishes to do it, let them. If the women want to revolt and change the rules, let them. Chances are they will continue to do it in their countries and probably not move to America or other parts of Europe, do it and then move back, facing ostracism .

They should be banned from doing female circumcision, though. While male circumcision is neither helpful nor harmful in the long run, female genital mutilation is crippling and awful.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2012, 11:35:16 AM »

Online rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #74 on: July 04, 2012, 11:35:19 AM »
Which once again brings it back to the main point here. Cricumcision is a question of cultural context. Germans viewing it as a barbaric mutilation of infants is equally understandable as Jews seeing it as not much more objectionable than wearing a yamulke. I don't agree with Cologne imposing their view on the population, but I can somewhat understand the rationale.

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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2012, 11:40:33 AM »
A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese?

Calm your titties. Nobody is claiming that there is a culture that values genital mutilation more than Jews.

But I'm interested, is basically impossible to be considered Jewish if you aren't circumcised? I can understand the importance as the Bible makes it pretty fundamental.

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #76 on: July 04, 2012, 11:43:27 AM »
Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself."

This is such utter junk, it's unfathomable. Sorry dude, seriously. Cutting hair != circumcision.

rumborak

That's entire the point. It's a reductio ad absurdum.

I know you're ignoring me because I've gotten you into trouble before, but do read my reply to you above, which explains why ear-piercing and hair- and nail-cutting are fundamentally different from circumcision.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2012, 11:49:10 AM »
Imagine if foreskin grew back like hair and nail. You'd have to chop it off every year.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2012, 11:52:33 AM »
Imagine if foreskin grew back like hair and nail. You'd have to chop it off every year.

*hopes there's no such thing as an ingrown foreskin*
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Online kingshmegland

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2012, 04:12:03 PM »
Well, I've always thought there was done because medically, it cuts down on socially transmitted diseases.  Personally, I think government should stay out of it and it should be a personal choice for either side.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2012, 09:40:45 PM »
Imagine if foreskin grew back like hair and nail. You'd have to chop it off every year.

*hopes there's no such thing as an ingrown foreskin*

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Stop.

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« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2012, 11:32:22 PM »
I suffered from an inverted urethra for a few months in my teen years.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2012, 11:41:10 PM »
*sobs*

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2012, 10:03:32 AM »
Every girl/woman I have spoken to on the subject vastly prefers a cut pickle.  Obviously this may be due to my socio/economic, geographic, cultural area, etc......but that is certainly the way it is.  I see no other more valid reason than cut pickles being the preference of your potential pool of partners.
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Offline ohgar

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2012, 11:02:55 AM »
I'm OK with banning circumcision as long as you ban baptism of young kids as well. After all, submerging an infant in water is careless, dangerous and potentially traumatizing.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2012, 11:35:09 AM »
I'm pretty sure infant baptism doesn't involve submersion.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2012, 11:42:19 AM »
It does not. They either pour or sprinkle water over the head because they know a baby wouldn't listen if you said "hey dude hold your breath for a second, you're going under". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2012, 12:17:25 PM »
And submersion baptism is only performed on people old enough to concent to that on their own.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2012, 12:31:11 PM »
Infants are born with the bradycardic response, also known as the "dive reflex", which causes them to hold their breath when submerged.

Dunk away.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2012, 02:45:23 PM »
People miss a fundamental point in this debate, which is that circumcision is basically irreversible. Foreskin restoration can bring back sensitivity to the glans, but it won't bring back the ridged band or other specialized nerve endings and cells in the foreskin. So to use a corny analogy, not circumcising your child is like ordering your meal without salt.

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2012, 02:46:57 PM »
People miss a fundamental point in this debate, which is that circumcision is basically irreversible. Foreskin restoration can bring back sensitivity to the glans, but it won't bring back the ridged band or other specialized nerve endings and cells in the foreskin. So to use a corny analogy, not circumcising your child is like ordering your meal without salt.


So are you in favor of banning it?
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Online rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2012, 03:20:37 PM »
I'm not following on that analogy, at all. It sounds like he's against circumcision, up until the last sentence which sounds like the opposite.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2012, 03:31:52 PM »
So are you in favor of banning it?

No. Whenever you ban something, you just create a black market. It's better to educate people about the ill effects in the hopes fewer people will choose to have it done.

I'm not following on that analogy, at all. It sounds like he's against circumcision, up until the last sentence which sounds like the opposite.

It's actually straight from The Joy Of Sex;D

Ordering something with salt is sort of irreversible because you can't pick out the individual grains. The idea is that you let boys choose later in life rather than forcing an irreversible procedure on them at birth.

Offline orcus116

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2012, 04:51:12 PM »
Salt probably isn't the best analogy to use because it's generally considered an enhancement to food.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2012, 04:56:19 PM »
I don't know, I understood the analogy.  The idea is that you may be happy with your food should you ask the cook to salt it, but you can't really reverse the decision should that not be the case.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2012, 05:51:36 PM »
I think it would be an interesting statistic to see how many circumcised men would rather not be. I just looked randomly and there were quite a few posts by people who did not like having had made the decision without their agreement.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2012, 07:58:22 PM »
I don't recall that. You sure?
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Online rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2012, 08:45:32 PM »
Not in this thread. I checked on stuff like Yahoo Answers etc. There were quite a few people saying they'd rather be "whole".

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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2012, 09:17:29 PM »
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2012, 09:22:18 PM »
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.

If you guys don't want to do it, then don't do it. But don't tell a religion who has done it for 3,000 years to stop doing it because you don't like it.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2012, 09:30:40 PM »
Adami, is your only support of circumcision that Judaism has been practicing it for a very long time?

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2012, 09:32:08 PM »
Adami, is your only support of circumcision that Judaism has been practicing it for a very long time?

My support of it is that it is part of my culture and has been since its inception, and not only that but it's an essential part, not just something we happen do. And we don't have a whole lot of jewish guys raising hell that they were circumcised. Which is why it should be allowed and optional. If people don't like that they're circumcised, then don't circumcise your children.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2012, 09:44:24 PM »
And we don't have a whole lot of jewish guys raising hell that they were circumcised.

But there are some?

My support of it is that it is part of my culture and has been since its inception, and not only that but it's an essential part, not just something we happen do.

An honest question:  would you be opposed to requiring a minimum age of consent for circumcision?  Does the Jewish faith encourage infant circumcision rather than circumcision of 10- or 13-year olds?

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2012, 09:55:46 PM »
Yes, 7 days.


And I don't speak in absolutes, so I won't say there are none. You can't force western ideals and values on every society you deem fit.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2012, 10:00:47 PM »
Yes, 7 days.

Just asking, because I didn't know.  Thanks.