Author Topic: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany  (Read 16637 times)

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Offline black_biff_stadler

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 08:08:37 PM »
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby?

Not comparable.

I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin.  I have attachment to it.  I feel no injustice at it being taken away.

If I was given a tattoo as a kid and grew up not liking it, there would be a problem.

I suppose it's not directly comparable.

What about a nosejob?  You wouldn't ever remember or experience another nose, and it is also just a cosmetic surgery done without your consent.

Circumcisions make hygienic maintenance easier though since smegma can't build up and cleaning your dingus in the shower is also much easier and more thorough.

A rhinoplasty is sheerly aesthetic. You aren't making an apples to apples comparison.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 08:38:01 PM »
The whole cleanliness argument for circumcision only works if you don't wash for a week. It's the equivalent of saying armpits can be problematic because they breed bacteria. Believe it or not, the remaining uncircumcised world doesn't run around with a ring of smegma under their dick. And neither did the millennia of human ancestors.
You wash it, and then it's clean.

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Offline black_biff_stadler

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 08:50:48 PM »
Can I wash your dick just to be sure? :caffeine:
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Offline Omega

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2012, 08:58:46 PM »
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Say it was the practice of religion x to remove the appendix of every child upon birth. Would that still be mutilation? Or what about piercing the ears of baby girls? Doesn't that occur long before the girl can come into an age whence she could "decide for herself" whether she wants her ears pierced? Wouldn't such an action be "mutilation" by your definition?

Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2012, 09:21:30 PM »
Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.

No, there's not much of a reason to strictly oppose circumcision. The problem, however, is that there's also very little reason to support circumcision besides religion, which I think is what most anti-circumcision people are opposed to. We shouldn't be engaged in this practice at all if A) it offers few to no health advantages and B) complications, while rare, are this inherently severe. And we're realizing that "God told me to", secularist agenda aside, isn't actually that great a defense for the practice.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2012, 09:25:51 PM »
Oh, and for the people who are confused about female circumcision: no, that's not something you want to consider for your daughter. :lol

While we could take or leave the foreskin, the clitoris has a pretty ridiculous amount of nerve endings. Taking it off serves no purpose other than to oppress women.

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« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2012, 09:45:49 PM »
It also makes cunnilingus take a HELL of a lot longer :(
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: No, I haven't been eating out African tribal women.
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2012, 09:49:58 PM »
See, it's bad for everybody, not just the woman. :lol

Offline Shine

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2012, 09:56:22 PM »
This coming from a borderline anarchocapitalist -

I'm sort of fine with this, assuming the headline is exactly what actually happened. Young children are generally much less capable of making decisions on their own, and really can't give consent in a way that we define it among adults. I don't think it should be banned for kids over 10 years old, but they should also have to consent to the surgery. Everyone under 10, if they ban it for them, I won't fight it.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2012, 10:27:37 PM »
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Say it was the practice of religion x to remove the appendix of every child upon birth. Would that still be mutilation? Or what about piercing the ears of baby girls? Doesn't that occur long before the girl can come into an age whence she could "decide for herself" whether she wants her ears pierced? Wouldn't such an action be "mutilation" by your definition?

Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.
Honestly, I think you're the only one in here who has actually associated it with a religious agenda (aside from SD's Jewishness).  We all think it's merely an aesthetic thing nowadays.  I know that in my opinion, and I suspect in plenty of others, if somebody actually does have a real religious concern for having his kid cut, then they can knock themselves out.  Snip snip.  Mazel tov.  Today you are slightly less of a man. 
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2012, 10:38:01 PM »
Yeah, I didn't reply to Omega'a post because it was just so off the mark.
BTW, I'm actually not particularly fond of the ruling myself. I think the cultural damage it does far outweighs the (as I agree) pretty minimal damage to the small number of circumcised German kids anyway. My stance in this thread is rather that religiously motivated irreparable body damage is something that shouldn't be taken to lightly either. It's just that in this case the scale tips the other way.

The whole "secularist agenda" is Omega brain fart.

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2012, 10:48:17 PM »
As a general rule, if you think a group that doesn't have meetings (atheists, homosexuals) has an agenda, you are wrong.

EDIT: http://www.conservapedia.com/Gay_agenda
http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist_agenda
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 10:55:49 PM by theseoafs »

Offline bosk1

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2012, 12:04:23 AM »
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Say it was the practice of religion x to remove the appendix of every child upon birth. Would that still be mutilation? Or what about piercing the ears of baby girls? Doesn't that occur long before the girl can come into an age whence she could "decide for herself" whether she wants her ears pierced? Wouldn't such an action be "mutilation" by your definition?

Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.

Great point.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2012, 12:15:57 AM »
Circumcision is basically what has made the Jewish race successful as it makes it more difficult for boys to discover masturbation and forces them to stay more focused working in the fields, studying or contributing in the Jewish communities. With natural genetilia the playing field is more even racially. Good move, fascist or not.

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2012, 12:35:36 AM »
If you gentiles don't want to snip off your kids shwingshwang then don't do it. You think it's disgusting or harmful or wrong? THEN DON'T DO IT. But our culture has survived for thousands of years and doing it hasn't harmed us in the slightest (actually it was the people who didn't approve of the things we did that harmed us quite a bit) and it's a major part of our cultural identity. Banning it is harmful to an entire religion and is really not too different than telling any other group of people that they can't do something that the majority group doesn't personally approve of.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2012, 12:36:12 AM »
Circumcision is basically what has made the Jewish race successful as it makes it more difficult for boys to discover masturbation and forces them to stay more focused working in the fields, studying or contributing in the Jewish communities. With natural genetilia the playing field is more even racially. Good move, fascist or not.

Only 3/8 of that makes any sense.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2012, 12:44:42 AM »
Circumcision is basically what has made the Jewish race successful as it makes it more difficult for boys to discover masturbation and forces them to stay more focused working in the fields, studying or contributing in the Jewish communities. With natural genetilia the playing field is more even racially. Good move, fascist or not.

...so that's why american boys are so successful in their studies, right?
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2012, 01:21:51 AM »
Oh god, not the smegma argument. Such an ignorant one.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2012, 03:13:44 AM »
Banning it is harmful to an entire religion

I'm sure that banning female circumcision is harmful to some religions or traditions as well but that doesn't mean I should give a shit.

...so that's why american boys are so successful in their studies, right?

Correlation der not equals causation etc.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2012, 08:32:40 AM »






Personally, I don't have an opinion, other than this:  If you have it done as an infant you will not remember it.  If you have it done when you're old enough to make your own decision about it, you're definitely going to remember it.  You may even be mentally/physically/emotionally traumatized by it.  Just sayin'

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2012, 09:18:19 AM »
If you gentiles don't want to snip off your kids shwingshwang then don't do it. You think it's disgusting or harmful or wrong? THEN DON'T DO IT. But our culture has survived for thousands of years and doing it hasn't harmed us in the slightest (actually it was the people who didn't approve of the things we did that harmed us quite a bit) and it's a major part of our cultural identity. Banning it is harmful to an entire religion and is really not too different than telling any other group of people that they can't do something that the majority group doesn't personally approve of.

That's the cultural damage I was talking about. It's safe to do, it's a cultural heritage for you guys, and Germans banning a practice that is predominantly exercised by Jews and Muslims, well, not so good.
That said, I also *do* understand the argument of infant integrity. I just don't think it has enough weight.

EDIT: BTW, if the decision in the US to circumcise your kids is mostly based on peer pressure (i.e. "don't want to have my kid stick out"), this article says in 2009 only 32% of kids were circumcised, mostly because insurances stopped covering it because of its nonexistent medical benefit.

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« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 09:50:30 AM by rumborak »
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2012, 10:04:17 AM »
lol

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2012, 10:51:10 AM »
Banning it is harmful to an entire religion

I'm sure that banning female circumcision is harmful to some religions or traditions as well but that doesn't mean I should give a shit.



Name one. Name one culture that demands female circumcision to be a part of it.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2012, 10:58:32 AM »
Sudan apparently has a >90% prevalence of one or another form of female circumcision. If you asked them I would guess they see it as a cultural heritage.

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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2012, 11:01:16 AM »
Sudan apparently has a >90% prevalence of one or another form of female circumcision. If you asked them I would guess they see it as a cultural heritage.

rumborak


A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese? Nah, I doubt that. People doing it, and a culture having it as part of their cultural identity for thousands of years is a very different thing.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2012, 11:06:06 AM »
Sudan apparently has a >90% prevalence of one or another form of female circumcision. If you asked them I would guess they see it as a cultural heritage.

rumborak


A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese? Nah, I doubt that. People doing it, and a culture having it as part of their cultural identity for thousands of years is a very different thing.

wut

That's like saying because you don't need to be circumcised to be Israeli, that circumcision isn't a part of Jewish culture.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2012, 11:07:20 AM »
No it's not? He pointed out that people in Sudan happen to do a lot of female circumcisions, and implied that it was equally necessary to their culture as it is in the Jewish culture. I pointed out that it was not.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2012, 11:18:39 AM »
No it's not? He pointed out that people in Sudan happen to do a lot of female circumcisions, and implied that it was equally necessary to their culture as it is in the Jewish culture. I pointed out that it was not.

From Wikipedia (FGM standing for "female genital mutilation") :


Obviously there are quite a few areas all around Africa where 95-100% of girls have been circumcised, and I'm sure it would be difficult for uncircumcised girls in these areas to be considered true members of their target culture (given that they can still enjoy sex, which I'm sure these cultures' elders don't appreciate). Obviously the only reason FGM still happens is tradition, and many cultures consider circumcision of both males and females equally important.

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2012, 11:20:50 AM »
Once again, not my point. Doing it a lot, and it being a actual necessity for ones culture or religion are VERY different things.

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Offline Omega

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2012, 11:21:11 AM »
Honestly, I think you're the only one in here who has actually associated it with a religious agenda (aside from SD's Jewishness).  We all think it's merely an aesthetic thing nowadays.  I know that in my opinion, and I suspect in plenty of others, if somebody actually does have a real religious concern for having his kid cut, then they can knock themselves out.  Snip snip.  Mazel tov.  Today you are slightly less of a man.

Yea, I don't doubt that many people nowadays choose to have their children circumcised by social convention, tradition, preference, etc rather than religious motivation. But, again, why choose to ban all male circumcision? I don't see the practice of circumcision any more pernicious or any less traditional than the piercing of the ears of infant girls. I assume that the piercing of the ears could, also, in an extremely unfortunate case perhaps lead to infection or some other bodily ailment. I can imagine that would be extremely rare, but the possibility would still exist, wouldn't it? So why allow the piercing of ears and not allow circumcision? It seems to me that the entire stance is not being consistent with its premises. Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself." Such inconsistency with the adopted premises, coupled with a strange obsession with what occurs to foreskins leads me to see the move as one motivated to deal a blow to a tradition that was founded in religion, however aptly disguised in a "caring" or "anti-mutilation" it may be, and however alienated or divorced from that religion it may be now.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2012, 11:23:20 AM »
Adami, I find it surprising how easily you dismiss another culture's practices as negligible. If the prevalence is near 100%, one has to assume it is considered to be an integral part of the culture. And I'm sure they can produce old documents stating the requirement of it, just like Jews have the Torah that says so.

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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2012, 11:23:55 AM »
Adami, I find it surprising how easily you dismiss another culture's practices as negligible. If the prevalence is near 100%, one has to assume it is considered to be an integral part of the culture. And I'm sure they can produce old documents stating the requirement of it, just like Jews have the Torah that says so.

rumborak

Then feel free to provide them.



Also, I don't think they should be banned from doing female circumcision either mind you. If the culture wishes to do it, let them. If the women want to revolt and change the rules, let them. Chances are they will continue to do it in their countries and probably not move to America or other parts of Europe, do it and then move back, facing ostracism .
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2012, 11:27:06 AM »
But, again, why choose to ban all male circumcision? I don't see the practice of circumcision any more pernicious or any less traditional than the piercing of the ears of infant girls.

Can you have your infant girl's ear pierced in America? I thought you had to be a certain age to give consent to that.

By the way, circumcision is different than having your ear pierced in that an ear piercing will heal itself after time. So if you decide once you reach a certain age that you don't want a hole in your ear, you can just leave out the earring for a while and it will eventually return to normal, but a foreskin will not grow back no matter how much you will it. That's a pretty essential difference.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2012, 11:27:19 AM »
Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself."

This is such utter junk, it's unfathomable. Sorry dude, seriously. Cutting hair != circumcision.

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Offline Rathma

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2012, 11:28:19 AM »
A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese?

Calm your titties. Nobody is claiming that there is a culture that values genital mutilation more than Jews.

But I'm interested, is basically impossible to be considered Jewish if you aren't circumcised? I can understand the importance as the Bible makes it pretty fundamental.