Author Topic: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany  (Read 17108 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2012, 05:47:14 PM »
If your culture/religion harms another human without their consent. A reasoned society should do away with it.

Yes, and thank you for very succinctly making the argument for why murdering infants (i.e. "abortion") should be outlawed.  But that's not what the thread is about, so let's get back on topic.  ;)
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2012, 05:55:57 PM »
If your culture/religion harms another human without their consent. A reasoned society should do away with it.

Yes, and thank you for very succinctly making the argument for why murdering infants (i.e. "abortion") should be outlawed.  But that's not what the thread is about, so let's get back on topic.  ;)

Oh you :lol

Offline bosk1

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2012, 05:56:41 PM »
:bosky:
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2012, 05:58:18 PM »
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings; the question is, is a zygote alive?

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2012, 06:10:28 PM »
Data on 402 908 children were identified from 12 studies (one randomised controlled trial, four cohort studies, and seven case–control studies). Circumcision was associated with a significantly reduced risk of UTI (OR = 0.13; 95% CI, 0.08 to 0.20; p<0.001) with the same odds ratio (0.13) for all three types of study design.

This paper cites the Wiswell studies which are deeply flawed. The problem with Wiswell's studies is that he told parents to forcibly retract their sons' foreskins and wash them with soap. Not only will soap kill off the good, naturally occurring bacteria, but the foreskin is actually meant to adhere to the glans until puberty. If you broke a little girl's hymen and forcibly douched her, she'd probably get an infection too. The bottom line: leave it alone. If you're raising an intact child, just wipe off any excess urine and don't try and scrub under the foreskin.

Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2012, 06:36:05 PM »
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings a person; the question is, is a zygote alive a person?

rumborak
Hopefully you don't mind, I feel that's a better distinction than just being alive, which will hopefully be less likely to invite response. Whatever you think the answer is to that question, I think we can all agree that prelonged discussion of it belongs outside a thread about circumcision, so hopefully this won't get too sidetracked.

Anyway, I realise that for some people this is an emotional issue (or at very least a personal one) and that it is a significant part of your culture, so to see people who it doesn't really affect casually discussing whether or not it's "WRONG" in a sort of academic way could easily annoy you, make you angry or defensive. I don't think anyone is really trying to be insulting or dismissive towards people or cultures that perform it though - I know I certainly wasn't trying to be, I just think it's quite an interesting issue to discuss, and if it's going to be discussed at all it should at least be the key issues that are being addressed.

I don't really feel strongly one way or the other. Being circumcised or not seems to be happiness and health-neutral (or at least so close to it that any difference is negligible), based on what I've seen so far, so I don't think that's a huge issue. But just the question of whether a parent should be able to make permanent alterations to a person's body at an age where they are incapable of consent is something to think about, imo. The analogy of another culture removing part of the earlobe is a good one in my opinion, and even the one about the tattoo, which was dismissed without much reason as far as I can tell, could work. Lets say it's a tattoo that isn't even readily visibile - hell, one on the genitals to make the location match, if such a procedure could be performed with the exact same risks associated with it as circumcision (I don't know if that's really possible or not). And I'm not trying to make these analogies as a way to demean the procedure, just to try to provide similar alternatives to think about that don't provoke such personal or emotional responses because they refer to real people who have undergone the procedure, or don't just seem so normal that they are automatically accepted.

But it's not hard to imagine that if people had had such procedures performed on them and lived with them all their lives, then "The earlobe doesn't do anything, so what does it matter?" or "It seems perfectly normal to me, so it's never bothered me" would be common responses. Yet even if the effect and reasons behind it were the same, I'm not sure people would be so happy if they heard about these procedures being done.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2012, 06:43:52 PM »
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings a person; the question is, is a zygote alive a person?

rumborak
Hopefully you don't mind, I feel that's a better distinction than just being alive, which will hopefully be less likely to invite response. Whatever you think the answer is to that question, I think we can all agree that prelonged discussion of it belongs outside a thread about circumcision, so hopefully this won't get too sidetracked.

Your correction is a good one. We kill things that are alive all the time (cows, chickens etc. because they're delicious, bugs because they're bothersome), so proving a fetus was alive wouldn't really do much.  It's whether a fetus is a person that matters, because with personhood comes a bunch of rights, like the right not to be killed.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #147 on: July 12, 2012, 06:55:17 PM »
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings a person; the question is, is a zygote alive a person?

rumborak
Hopefully you don't mind, I feel that's a better distinction than just being alive, which will hopefully be less likely to invite response. Whatever you think the answer is to that question, I think we can all agree that prelonged discussion of it belongs outside a thread about circumcision, so hopefully this won't get too sidetracked.

Your correction is a good one. We kill things that are alive all the time (cows, chickens etc. because they're delicious, bugs because they're bothersome), so proving a fetus was alive wouldn't really do much.  It's whether a fetus is a person that matters, because with personhood comes a bunch of rights, like the right not to be killed.

And to tie it in with this thread, we don't give infants the same rights as we do an adult, or even a 2 year old. It's not necessarily violating the rights of an infant to circumcise him. It's not entirely irreversible either.

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #148 on: July 12, 2012, 07:44:48 PM »
If this was about any facet of Bosk1's religion, we'd be banned in a heartbeat

But it's okay for him to make snide comments and be bigoted about things he doesn't like


fuck you bosk. you are the embodiment of hypocritical assholes


/tiphat

Offline Sigz

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #149 on: July 12, 2012, 07:50:08 PM »
Well.

This thread escalated quickly.
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #150 on: July 12, 2012, 07:52:52 PM »
Ouch.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #151 on: July 12, 2012, 07:55:07 PM »
If this was about any facet of Bosk1's religion, we'd be banned in a heartbeat

But it's okay for him to make snide comments and be bigoted about things he doesn't like


fuck you bosk. you are the embodiment of hypocritical assholes


/tiphat

Well, despite your effort to go out in a blaze of glory, I'm going to just ignore the immature personal attack for a moment.  Do it again, and you'll be parting ways with the forum.  But setting that aside for just a moment since you seem to basically be a good, if somewhat misguided, soul...

First off, I don't even have the first clue which post your response is aimed at, so your post really doesn't even make sense to me.

Second, uh...what?  ???  No, I have never, as far as I am aware, shown any bias against people making negative comments about Christianity.  If anything, I go out of my way to be even more lenient about anti-Christian posts as opposed to anti-[insert religion here] posts simply because I want to be extra careful about not being biased.  You can't even make that argument.

Third, uh...what?  ???  I'm not sure why you think I'm making snide or bigoted comments about you religion.  I didn't.  And if you paid closer attention, you probably would have figured out that, if anything, I support your side of the argument more than the other side.  I think it is stupid to ban circumcision.  Again, if you paid attention, you would realize you have it backwards.

Fourth, knock off the personal attacks/namecalling.  Seriously.  It just screams out "attention grab."  If you want to be banned for breaking the rules, fine.  You of all people know I don't have a problem banning you.  But it's silly to try to play the martyr.  There's a big difference between yourself and a martyr:  people mourn when martyrs die.

So...wanna try again?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 08:01:24 PM by bosk1 »
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Offline Gadough

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
« Reply #152 on: July 12, 2012, 08:15:28 PM »
pretty much everyone seems happy with their situation, circumcised or not.

This is why I think the whole argument is silly. My parents chose to circumcise me for non-religious reasons. Do I care? Not in the slightest. I'm perfectly content living life without a foreskin. People get so riled up when talking about this, and honestly, I find it amusing. I don't understand why it's such a big deal.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2012, 08:18:35 PM »
Yeah, but it's easy for you to say because it's the societal norm,so you feel "safe". Now imagine living in Germany where almost no-one is circumcised. There a circumcision becomes a potential cause of derision amongst your peers.
I have to wonder how many cultural Jews in the US would choose to not circumcise their kids if they felt it would single out they kid unnecessarily.

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Offline Gadough

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2012, 08:22:28 PM »
Good point. Still, it makes me wonder why those cultural ideas developed. What about it is so inherently bad that causes it to be a source of shame?
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Offline Implode

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #155 on: July 12, 2012, 09:49:20 PM »
There a circumcision becomes a potential cause of derision amongst your peers.

The same could be said for the opposite here in the US. Like you said, it seems like one way isn't better than the other. It's just cultural difference. Let people do what they want.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #156 on: July 12, 2012, 11:42:33 PM »
Yeah, but it's easy for you to say because it's the societal norm,so you feel "safe". Now imagine living in Germany where almost no-one is circumcised. There a circumcision becomes a potential cause of derision amongst your peers.

Eh, at least here it's basically a non-issue. I've had a couple friends who were uncircumcised and it was never an issue for them. The whole 'gym class shower' scenario is non-existent in present day schools, and beyond that circumcision isn't even brought up in a social context.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #157 on: July 13, 2012, 08:03:07 AM »
Out of all things to be mad at another cultural group about; they picked one that doesn't affect the rest of society at all.
I'm circumcised, I never thought to ask my parents whether it was religious or cultural.
I didn't even know there was such a thing as uncircumcised until I was like 18, imagine my shock learning it from a porn film, going "wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.
All due respect the thing looks creepy, must be double the work for a sex partner to perform oral work there heh
But it occurs to me that people with uncircumcised penises probably feel less guilty after masturbation than circumcised people, with nothing looking back at you in the after moments :lol
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #158 on: July 13, 2012, 08:28:56 AM »
circumcised or uncircumcised...........either way........they'll fit right in.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2012, 09:27:02 AM »
Interestingly, a Jewish friend of mine moved to Switzerland about a year ago, with her Christian husband (well, they're both "culturally" Christian and Jewish). Well, she's knocked up now and mentioned the discussion she had with her husband about circumcision. Her being American and Jewish she immediately assumed the kid would be circumcised, but interestingly she changed her mind later.
Nothing much to draw from the story, just figured I'd mention it because it fit in here.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #160 on: July 13, 2012, 03:15:00 PM »
I don't have much to offer to this discussion that hasn't been said already, but I want to offer mad props to metty for this one:
"wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.

For the record, I agree with what PLM said: parents make decisions for their children all the time, even some that are irreversible, which is why I would just adopt a live-and-let-live stance on this one.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2012, 03:34:35 PM »
:lol Scorpion mein wütend Freund, did you read what I said before that? It was my reaction to seeing an uncircumcised penis on a porn movie for the first time ever when I was 18 years old, having not known there is such a thing as uncircumcised penis prior to the incident.
I had a similar reaction at 12 years old at my first vagina sighting heh
Pass the chill pill jar around this thread.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2012, 03:35:34 PM »
"wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.
This is the best thing I've read on this forum in years :lol

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2012, 03:45:26 PM »
:lol Scorpion mein wütend Freund, did you read what I said before that? It was my reaction to seeing an uncircumcised penis on a porn movie for the first time ever when I was 18 years old, having not known there is such a thing as uncircumcised penis prior to the incident.
I had a similar reaction at 12 years old at my first vagina sighting heh
Pass the chill pill jar around this thread.

Oh I read it alright, but that quote was just pure gold.
And I'm already pretty  :chill
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2012, 03:52:03 PM »
Oh I'm the one that misunderstood your post, I thought "mad props" meant "angry props" cause of what you said after that.
My bad :)
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Offline Scorpion

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #165 on: July 13, 2012, 03:59:04 PM »
metty, you know what? This quote is worthy of replacing lonestar's in my sig.

You may now feel honoured.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 01:30:08 AM by Scorpion »
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #166 on: July 13, 2012, 04:07:20 PM »
this thread makes me want to go watch the Legend of Sleepy Hollow
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #167 on: July 13, 2012, 06:19:36 PM »
The power went out earlier as I was typing a reply.
I just got off the phone with my dad and he said it's for religious reasons and Egyptian Christians (Coptic Church) do it as well.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #168 on: July 13, 2012, 06:27:12 PM »
Did you mention to him how you first discovered the difference?
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #169 on: July 13, 2012, 06:31:04 PM »
Out of all things to be mad at another cultural group about; they picked one that doesn't affect the rest of society at all.
I'm circumcised, I never thought to ask my parents whether it was religious or cultural.
I didn't even know there was such a thing as uncircumcised until I was like 18, imagine my shock learning it from a porn film, going "wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.
All due respect the thing looks creepy, must be double the work for a sex partner to perform oral work there heh
But it occurs to me that people with uncircumcised penises probably feel less guilty after masturbation than circumcised people, with nothing looking back at you in the after moments :lol
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This.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #170 on: July 13, 2012, 07:00:31 PM »
Did you mention to him how you first discovered the difference?

My father likes to assume I didn't know how babies are made until my wedding night so I don't like to break his illusions   ;D
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #171 on: July 13, 2012, 07:30:49 PM »
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...

I've wanted to come up with a rebuttal to this but I really can't.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #172 on: July 13, 2012, 07:37:08 PM »
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...

I've wanted to come up with a rebuttal to this but I really can't.

That's because he's arguing based on emotion and not logic. For instance, if circumcision didn't exist and then today suddenly it was introduced, people would freak the hell out and go up in arms. The reason they're not is because the practice has been around for thousands of years. Cutting off the lobes is being introduced as a brand new concept which freaks people the hell out. So comparing the reactions of something that has been around for thousands of years to something that hasn't is illogical. Just as a purple person would scare everyone because we haven't seen one, yet a black or white person doesn't scare the other because we're used to it already. I'm sure if there a pagan community that had been ritualistically cutting off the earlobes for thousands of years, we wouldn't throw any more of a fit than the people here are currently throwing about circumcision.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #173 on: July 13, 2012, 07:44:11 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-tells-jews-muslims-free-circumcise-121016362.html


Looks like Germany made the right call, whatever their motives.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2012, 07:49:36 PM »
I am still stunned at the stupidity of the Cologne judges. This was the absolutely obvious outcome of this, and their ruling has done nothing but tarnish Germany's image.

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