Author Topic: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany  (Read 16627 times)

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Offline ReaPsTA

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Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« on: July 03, 2012, 09:13:07 AM »
Link here

Here's the part that's actually interesting:

Quote
The Cologne case involved a four-year-old boy who had been taken on Nov. 4, 2010 to a clinic in the same city, where he was circumcised at the express wish of his Muslim parents. Two days later, the parents brought their son to the emergency room at Cologne's university hospital because he suffered from profuse bleeding. The public prosecutor then filed charges against the doctor.

In its first ruling in the case, the lower Cologne district court ruled that the medical treatment given had been irreproachable and the judges acquitted the doctor. The court ruled that the surgery had in fact represented bodily injury, but that it had been justified by the "child's well-being" and noted that the parents had given their approval for the procedure. The court stated that circumcision serves as a "traditional-ritual course of action for documenting belonging culturally and religiously to the Muslim community." Circumcision, the court argued, would prevent the threat of stigmatization for the child among his peers. The court also stressed its opinion that there are medical advantages to circumcision. The public prosecutor responded by appealing the ruling, pushing the case up to the regional court.

The court ultimately rejected the appeal, ruling that the doctor had been innocent because of the legal uncertainty surrounding circumcision.

The judges nevertheless decided to issue some clarity for the future on that regard, ruling that the surgery, or bodily injury, had not been justified by the permission given by the parents and that it did not represent the well-being of the child. The court ruled that the child's right to physical integrity is more important than the parent's basic rights. The ruling stated that a mother's or father's right to freedom of religion as well as their right to determining how they raise their child would not be limited if they were forced to wait and allow their child to decide for himself if he wanted to be circumcised. The ruling states a child's right to self-determination should come first.

I'm not sure if I'd have my child circumcised.  It seems like a semi-complicated decision.

Why would the government just say no?  If the argument was medical, I'd understand.  But I'm not sure what aspect of "self-determination" is really at stake here.  For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 10:01:30 AM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2012, 09:19:27 AM »
I saw this on Facebook a few days ago. I learned some interesting statistics, including that only 3% of men are circumcised - 2/3 of that being Americans.

It's a difficult question. I initially assumed I'd always have my son circumcised, but it seems like the potential harm outweighs the minimal benefit.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2012, 09:30:57 AM »
I'm not sure what aspect of "self-determination" is really at stake here. 

Well, you are essentially robbing someone of a part of their body. It's just a weird issue because besides the "men's rights" wackos pretty much everyone seems happy with their situation, circumcised or not. Social norms play a much larger role in it than any perceived loss of choice.

I'm not really sure a ban was necessary, but it's not something that really bothers me anyways. I'm circumcised and I'm perfectly fine with that, but if I were to have kids I wouldn't support getting them circumcised. I don't see the point beyond tradition.
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Offline Implode

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2012, 09:46:55 AM »
pretty much everyone seems happy with their situation, circumcised or not. Social norms play a much larger role in it than any perceived loss of choice.

That's an interesting truth. And it's probably why it'll be perpetuated here in the US.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2012, 09:46:56 AM »
Yeah, that was pretty controversial, and mind you, it's only the city of Cologne.
That said, I actually somewhat agree that forcing the parents to postpone the circumcision until the child can make a willing decision about it, is a far smaller penalty than the damage of body-modding the child by default.

For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

Well, Germany has such a low rate of circumcision that there isn't just the societal collective shrug of "that's how we've always done it". And when you actually look at it, mutilating your infant is a *highly* questionable practice. I guess humanity can consider itself lucky that there isn't a religion that beats up their infants on religious grounds.

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« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 09:54:07 AM by rumborak »
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2012, 10:07:05 AM »
I imagine people would start kicking up shit if tatooing your baby became a fad.  I don't know why Americans are OK with genital mutilation of infants.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2012, 11:43:56 AM »
Relevant


I am circumcised, but my son is not (he's 25)


Personally, I don't have an opinion, other than this:  If you have it done as an infant you will not remember it.  If you have it done when you're old enough to make your own decision about it, you're definitely going to remember it.  You may even be mentally/physically/emotionally traumatized by it.  Just sayin'

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2012, 11:53:11 AM »
I am circumcised and I never once considered my genitals 'mutilated.'
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2012, 11:57:59 AM »
Well, you grew up in a culture where it is considered a norm, so not surprisingly you never seriously questioned it.
Is female circumcision not mutilation for you either?

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2012, 12:25:42 PM »
True - sort of. The 'norm' I was familiar with was ony my own, which, I guess to a little boy, is the norm unless or until he finds out differently. And I wouldn't say I never questioned it. I was just implying I never thought of it as 'mutilation.'

And with regards to female circumcision, I don't really know enough about it. My daughter was born last year, and it isn't like my wife and I ever discussed the topic.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 12:30:00 PM »
I thought female circumcision actually had lasting damages on the nerves in the area though. Isn't it way more damaging than male circumcision?

Offline Sigz

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 01:18:34 PM »
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The WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy); Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood—the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth.[4] Around 85 percent of women who undergo FGM experience Types I and II, and 15 percent Type III, though Type III is the most common procedure in several countries, including Sudan, Somalia, and Djibouti.

Yeah, I don't think it's really fair to compare the two.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2012, 01:33:02 PM »
Yay, let's open this can of worms yet again.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2012, 01:34:55 PM »
Female circumcision, I'm assuming right now, can be done as safely and impact-less as male circumcision if done by a trained professional. The point still stands; would it not be mutilation either then?
Either way, I think there's a chock full of societal waving-through going on regarding circumcision.

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Offline adace

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 01:43:40 PM »
I am circumcised and I never once considered my genitals 'mutilated.'
This.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 01:47:17 PM »
 :facepalm:
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 02:22:22 PM »
Female circumcision, I'm assuming right now, can be done as safely and impact-less as male circumcision if done by a trained professional. The point still stands; would it not be mutilation either then?

Well, no. Removing the clitoris is considerably different anatomically speaking than removing foreskin is, regardless of how safe or sterile the procedure is.

That said, I agree with you in principle. Circumcision is something that takes a piece of someone's body for no real reason other than social norms. I mean, it's not something I'm particularly bothered by in any way, but I don't support it and really see no reason for it to continue.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 02:36:28 PM »
Male and Female circumcision aren't the same discussion.  At all.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 02:41:05 PM »
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 02:46:03 PM »
I think that's being a bit too general. People used to have their tonsils unnecessarily removed all the time.

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 03:04:16 PM »
And wisdom teeth. I've been circumcised, my brothers were and my father too, and if I have sons I'm sure they will be too.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 03:08:45 PM »
A current article published by the AMA.  In a nutshell, American circumcisions are at an all time low (closing on 50/50).  A few factors are a vociferous advocacy group, a neutral stance from the American Academy of Pediatrics, and a reluctance for state run medicaid programs to pick up the tab.  The flip side is that they're starting to think that their might be some health benefits to getting snipped.  As the numbers decrease, we'll get better data from a larger sample.   

And wisdom teeth. I've been circumcised, my brothers were and my father too, and if I have sons I'm sure they will be too.
Yeah, but you're Jewish.  You have an excuse.  Americans lost their religious identity long ago, and even then it wasn't really strongly affixed to circumcision. 
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 03:55:31 PM »
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised. It's obviously true that he could decide to get one at a time when he's levelheaded enough to make important life decisions but I'd imagine it'd be very stressing to have to choose between potential sexual ostracism or the physical pain and discomfort one goes through during the recovery process.

This line of thought also occurred to me:

1) Smegma smells

2) Cologne outlaws circumcision thereby increasing the amount of smegma in town

3) Sell more cologne to cover the smell

4) ?

5) Profit
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 04:49:41 PM »
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised.
Is... is that actually a possibility where you live? A normal, unmodified penis is considered that odd there?
That's a bizarre notion to me. Then, it's far from the norm here. In Canada, it's estimated that fewer than 30% of guys are circumcised, and in my province, a quick search shows that it's about 6.8% (the lowest in the country). Some reports put the national number at 'less than 17%'.

If you look at percentage of boys who have been circumcised in the past ten years, it drops below 1% in Nova Scotia, and is statistically nil in Newfoundland.

Edit: Looked it up, and it looks like it is certainly much more common in the US than here in Canada. It's just odd to me that there are people who consider it odd for a guy to not have part of his penis cut off.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 04:56:29 PM by TL »

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2012, 05:03:56 PM »
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised.
Is... is that actually a possibility where you live? A normal, unmodified penis is considered that odd there?
That's a bizarre notion to me. Then, it's far from the norm here. In Canada, it's estimated that fewer than 30% of guys are circumcised, and in my province, a quick search shows that it's about 6.8% (the lowest in the country). Some reports put the national number at 'less than 17%'.

If you look at percentage of boys who have been circumcised in the past ten years, it drops below 1% in Nova Scotia, and is statistically nil in Newfoundland.

Possibility? Definitely yes. Probability? Not totally sure. People sometimes joke about it in a non-malicious way from time to time to an extent that I've definitely been led to believe that it has a reputation of being a significant departure from the norm (in American society that is.) I've heard more than a few girls mention their less-than-comfortable attitude toward them as well. Not that these gals were mortally grossed out but moreso that they were so unaccustomed to it that they talked about it in a somewhat uneasy manner.

I don't personally give a rat's ass one way or another and have no issues with anteater cocks. My strong personal preference for being cut is the easier cleanup aspect of it. I ain't implying that it's that hard to clean inside foreskin but it surely can't be easier than polishing a firepole.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2012, 05:07:43 PM »
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Like Cool Chris and Adace said, I don't feel very mutilated.  I don't think women/girls who are circumcised feel quite the same way.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2012, 05:16:25 PM »
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2012, 05:21:09 PM »
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby?
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2012, 05:24:46 PM »
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby?

Not comparable.

I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin.  I have attachment to it.  I feel no injustice at it being taken away.

If I was given a tattoo as a kid and grew up not liking it, there would be a problem.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2012, 06:46:18 PM »
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby?

Not comparable.

I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin.  I have attachment to it.  I feel no injustice at it being taken away.

If I was given a tattoo as a kid and grew up not liking it, there would be a problem.

I suppose it's not directly comparable.

What about a nosejob?  You wouldn't ever remember or experience another nose, and it is also just a cosmetic surgery done without your consent.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2012, 06:51:46 PM »
Was it a good nose job?
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2012, 07:04:24 PM »
I thought female circumcision actually had lasting damages on the nerves in the area though. Isn't it way more damaging than male circumcision?

Depends on the type but male circumcision comes with damages of its own. The glans forms a callous over it due to constant rubbing against clothing, leading to a loss of sensitivity. Nerve endings are severed, which explains why circumcised men are 4.5 times more likely to suffer from erectile dysfunction. The circumcision scar can become sore or inflamed during sex.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2012, 07:40:28 PM »
I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin. 

For what it's worth, I don't miss your foreskin either. 

Wait...  ???
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 07:44:30 PM »
A current article published by the AMA.  In a nutshell, American circumcisions are at an all time low (closing on 50/50).  A few factors are a vociferous advocacy group, a neutral stance from the American Academy of Pediatrics, and a reluctance for state run medicaid programs to pick up the tab.  The flip side is that they're starting to think that their might be some health benefits to getting snipped.  As the numbers decrease, we'll get better data from a larger sample.   

And wisdom teeth. I've been circumcised, my brothers were and my father too, and if I have sons I'm sure they will be too.
Yeah, but you're Jewish.  You have an excuse.  Americans lost their religious identity long ago, and even then it wasn't really strongly affixed to circumcision.

It's all good and well until someone else tries to stop us from doing so (i.e. that California ban, IIRC).
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 07:57:38 PM »
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised.
Is... is that actually a possibility where you live? A normal, unmodified penis is considered that odd there?

I live in the US, and from what I've gathered, yes it is a distinct possibility. That's the biggest reason why circumcision is perpetuated. It's not religion; it's because most Americans see an uncircumcised penis as weird/gross.

Isolated culture is funny like that.