Author Topic: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?  (Read 13125 times)

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Offline jsem

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2012, 04:14:37 PM »
It's not that Muslims are terrorists, it's just that terrorists tend to be Muslim.

:footloose:

Offline Adami

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2012, 04:15:42 PM »
It's not that Muslims are terrorists, it's just that terrorists tend to be Muslim.

:footloose:

Not sure what that has to do with anything. Only idiots assume muslims are terrorists and only idiots assume conservatives are bigoted racists.
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Offline jsem

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2012, 04:57:56 PM »
The facts tell the truth about terrorism, that only an extremely small percentage of all terrorist acts are committed by Muslims. So to even say that terrorists tend to be Muslim is undeniably false.

I'm showing by that statement that I'm not completely sure all bigots and racists are conservatives, maybe it's only a small amount. But whatever, I don't know. I'm just questioning the merits of that generalization.


Offline Adami

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2012, 05:00:13 PM »
The facts tell the truth about terrorism, that only an extremely small percentage of all terrorist acts are committed by Muslims. So to even say that terrorists tend to be Muslim is undeniably false.

I'm showing by that statement that I'm not completely sure all bigots and racists are conservatives, maybe it's only a small amount. But whatever, I don't know. I'm just questioning the merits of that generalization.

In America? Every racist and bigot I've met or heard from (and being from the midwest, it's a good amount) are all conservatives. Are they all? Probably not. But I doubt too many racists and bigots are out voting for Obama, you know?
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Offline jsem

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2012, 05:51:18 PM »
Doubting many racists voting for Obama
-> inferring that only white people are racists?

Could there be black people who are racist and bigoted too perhaps? Just a fair question. But in America, it might be so that most are conservatives, I don't have any stats.

((Either way, no matter how much one thinks racism is a part of the equation, race is a huge factor when people go vote... sadly. The impression of the candidate means so much more than substance.))

Offline Adami

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2012, 05:52:40 PM »
Doubting many racists voting for Obama
-> inferring that only white people are racists?

Could there be black people who are racist and bigoted too perhaps? Just a fair question.

((Either way, no matter how much one thinks racism is a part of the equation, race is a huge factor when people go vote... sadly. The impression of the candidate means so much more than substance.))

Black people can't be racist. Only white people, and in some rare cases purple people. But let's face it, they're purple, they have every right to be mad.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2012, 06:05:08 PM »
Pretty much started when Liberals started calling the right bigots, racists and uncivilized. name calling has been around for a while but you start throwing around the bigot and racist words, you know the shit is going to hit the fan.


That was pretty much "it" for me. This idea that conservatives are bigots or racists is completely absurd.

I don't think it's that conservatives are bigots or racist, but that bigots and racists tend to be conservatives.

Partly because of the way we define the terms, by the way. In fact, if you're a racist or a bigot, I think you are, by definition, not a liberal. And if you support many of the things conservatives support, you're still technically a liberal. Or pragmatically, at least.

I'd also want to make a distinction between the right-wing media, which often peddles racist undertones, and conservatives.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2012, 06:13:50 PM »
Doubting many racists voting for Obama
-> inferring that only white people are racists?

Could there be black people who are racist and bigoted too perhaps? Just a fair question.

((Either way, no matter how much one thinks racism is a part of the equation, race is a huge factor when people go vote... sadly. The impression of the candidate means so much more than substance.))

Black people can't be racist. Only white people, and in some rare cases purple people. But let's face it, they're purple, they have every right to be mad.

They'll discriminate till they're blue in the face. :neverusethis:
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2012, 06:50:45 PM »
Pretty much started when Liberals started calling the right bigots, racists and uncivilized. name calling has been around for a while but you start throwing around the bigot and racist words, you know the shit is going to hit the fan.


That was pretty much "it" for me. This idea that conservatives are bigots or racists is completely absurd.

I don't think it's that conservatives are bigots or racist, but that bigots and racists tend to be conservatives.

Partly because of the way we define the terms, by the way. In fact, if you're a racist or a bigot, I think you are, by definition, not a liberal. And if you support many of the things conservatives support, you're still technically a liberal. Or pragmatically, at least.

I'd also want to make a distinction between the right-wing media, which often peddles racist undertones, and conservatives.

That's very "No True Scotsman"-y.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2012, 07:22:12 PM »
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal?s=t

Quote
7.
free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
8.
open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

You can't be a bigot, and simultaneously free from bigotry. To say that you are a liberal bigot, is to say that you are an atheist who believes in God.

If I had to make any point, it would be that the words liberal and conservatives are unfortunately opposed to each other, even though the theories and ideas backing them up are actually usually in agreement.

Offline jammindude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2012, 10:04:36 PM »
Guinea Pig...

Be fair.  You throw that "No True Scotsman" thing around quite a bit...but for as much as I've seen you bring it up in several different threads (and if I'm mistaking you for someone else, I apologize in advance) I think you're missing the *most important* point of the "no true Scotsman" illustration. 

The "No True Scotsman" argument only works for something for which *there are no defined parameters* and some joe shmoe is just making up *his own* definition. 

But you often try to apply this argument to situations in which there *DOES* exist written, and clearly defined parameters of the subject at hand.   
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2012, 11:08:44 AM »
I'd also want to make a distinction between the right-wing media, which often peddles racist undertones, and conservatives.

What about the liberal media, which seems to have a clear, engrained bias against white people? How many horrendous black on white crimes get ignored in favor of bullshit like Tawana Brawley and Trayvon Martin? And what about liberal programs like affirmative action and quotas which are "reverse racism" against whites?

I'm not a racist. It's absurd that I would even have to bring that up, but I think the point stands that it is possible to be a liberal (at least a self-identifying one) and a bigot. And if you look at most of the early progressives (John Maynard Keynes, Margaret Sanger, George Bernard Shaw, William Beveridge, Marie Stopes etc.) they were all ardent racists and eugenicists.

Offline Vivace

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2012, 11:26:27 AM »
Pretty much started when Liberals started calling the right bigots, racists and uncivilized. name calling has been around for a while but you start throwing around the bigot and racist words, you know the shit is going to hit the fan.


That was pretty much "it" for me. This idea that conservatives are bigots or racists is completely absurd.

I don't think it's that conservatives are bigots or racist, but that bigots and racists tend to be conservatives.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2012, 11:28:05 AM »
Just to clarify, since I foresee an ensuing shitstorm. I'm not sleighting the fact that Trayvon Martin died. It's a tragedy when anyone, especially a young kid, ends up being shot and killed. My point of contention is simply the liberal media's eagerness to portray the shooting as a white on black hate crime- to the point of doctoring the 911 call- when Zimmerman wasn't even white and eyewitness testimonies seemed to confirm that Zimmerman acted in self defense.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2012, 11:40:01 AM »
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2012, 11:50:07 AM »
It's absurd that I would even have to bring that up, but I think the point stands that it is possible to be a liberal (at least a self-identifying one) and a bigot.
Yes, I think it's silly to think that political ideology could entirely preclude someone from bigotry or prejudice.  And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Offline jsem

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2012, 12:00:44 PM »
Trayvon Martin had its own thread, and its share of debates. And I can recall both sides being taken.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2012, 01:46:16 PM »
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal?s=t

Quote
7.
free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
8.
open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

You can't be a bigot, and simultaneously free from bigotry. To say that you are a liberal bigot, is to say that you are an atheist who believes in God.

If I had to make any point, it would be that the words liberal and conservatives are unfortunately opposed to each other, even though the theories and ideas backing them up are actually usually in agreement.

Bullshit.  There are so many elements to modern liberalism, that disagreeing to a minor point of it (the fucking 7th in your dictionary definition, by the way) doesn't prevent you from being a liberal.  That's absolutely a "No True Scotsman." 
Guinea Pig...

Be fair.  You throw that "No True Scotsman" thing around quite a bit...but for as much as I've seen you bring it up in several different threads (and if I'm mistaking you for someone else, I apologize in advance) I think you're missing the *most important* point of the "no true Scotsman" illustration. 

The "No True Scotsman" argument only works for something for which *there are no defined parameters* and some joe shmoe is just making up *his own* definition. 

But you often try to apply this argument to situations in which there *DOES* exist written, and clearly defined parameters of the subject at hand.   

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.  The whole basis of the name of the fallacy involves clearly defined parameters; i.e., someone claiming that someone is not actually a "true" Scotsman based on their actions. 

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2012, 01:57:24 PM »
I'd also want to make a distinction between the right-wing media, which often peddles racist undertones, and conservatives.

What about the liberal media, which seems to have a clear, engrained bias against white people? How many horrendous black on white crimes get ignored in favor of bullshit like Tawana Brawley and Trayvon Martin? And what about liberal programs like affirmative action and quotas which are "reverse racism" against whites?

Red herring. One giant red herring.

For starters, I don't know what media you're watching (the "liberal" media is more the sensationalism media), but the one I watch is hardly biased against white people. The fact that you bring up Trayvon Martin, to me, shows you misunderstanding the heart of the issue, and the facts of how racist our legal system is - overall.

Also, I'd say you should make a distinction between someones personal motivations, and the actual effects of their actions, and the legislation they might pass. Someone could do something technically bigotted, etc, but the reason for that may not be bigotry, but ignorance, humor, etc.*edit* If you see the definition of bigotry, it's not doing something in a prejudiced manner, it's more, not dealing with your own prejudices if and when you overcome them.

Quote
It's absurd that I would even have to bring that up, but I think the point stands that it is possible to be a liberal (at least a self-identifying one) and a bigot. And if you look at most of the early progressives (John Maynard Keynes, Margaret Sanger, George Bernard Shaw, William Beveridge, Marie Stopes etc.) they were all ardent racists and eugenicists.

I just linked to the current definition of liberal, and am accurately pointing out that you are not a liberal if you are bigoted, and it doesn't matter if you "self-identify" as one. If I get married, I cant' still "self-identify" as a bachelor, nor still be considered a bachelor. If you want to argue for a different definition of liberal, I'm all ears, but what seems more absurd to me is to so blissfully ignore the definition of a word.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 02:16:23 PM by Scheavo »

Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2012, 02:08:10 PM »
Bullshit.  There are so many elements to modern liberalism, that disagreeing to a minor point of it (the fucking 7th in your dictionary definition, by the way) doesn't prevent you from being a liberal.  That's absolutely a "No True Scotsman." 

Just because there's a lot of parts to the definition doesn't mean that all those parts lose significance. The different definitions are for differing contexts, as in, why and how you are using the word liberal. I'm going to the definition of the word that most aptly applies to the conversation at hand. Furthermore, the issue of bigotry also has overtones in many of the other definitions of the word, and for someone to be a bigot, requires one to be numerous other things which a liberal is not.

That, is not bullshit. That is logic. Now, what's bullshit, is what you're doing:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/broad-minded

So tell me, how can one be simultaneously, "obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices," and at the same time be "broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms" where broud-minded is defined as, "tolerant of varied views"?


Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2012, 02:40:27 PM »
Maybe it's important to distinguish between prejudice and discrimination. People tend to have an ingrained bias towards their own race, but certain people's ideologies prevent them from acting on that bias. So while liberalism doesn't necessarily preclude someone from prejudice, the case could be made that anyone who favors discrimination is not a liberal.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2012, 05:38:02 PM »
@Scheavo

Liberalism is a broad philosophy.  One's adherence to it does not hinge upon one element, no more than does supporting a tax hike not make one a conservative, or being tolerant of gays not make one a Christian.  It's absolutely a NTS to say "if you're a bigot, you're not a liberal," just as it is to say "if you commit a crime, you're not a Christian."
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2012, 05:49:57 PM »
Maybe it's important to distinguish between prejudice and discrimination. People tend to have an ingrained bias towards their own race, but certain people's ideologies prevent them from acting on that bias. So while liberalism doesn't necessarily preclude someone from prejudice, the case could be made that anyone who favors discrimination is not a liberal.

If we got into it, we all have prejudices, and they're a basic part of our world. But the difference between a liberal and a bigot, is that a liberal will challenge their biases, work against their prejudices, while a bigot will not. And it doesn't mean everyone's a bigot or a liberal, but it's an oxymoron to say someone is a liberal bigot.

@Scheavo

Liberalism is a broad philosophy.  One's adherence to it does not hinge upon one element, no more than does supporting a tax hike not make one a conservative, or being tolerant of gays not make one a Christian.  It's absolutely a NTS to say "if you're a bigot, you're not a liberal," just as it is to say "if you commit a crime, you're not a Christian."

No, it's more like saying, if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you're not a Christian. I'm pointing to something very fundamental through out liberalism. Where I would agree with you, is if I were somehow saying if you don't support social safety nets, then you're not a liberal. But I'm not talking about something like that, I'm talking about what liberalism is, how it is defined, and what it means for something and someone to be liberal.

Offline PraXis

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2012, 01:09:05 PM »
I'm been so flipping busy with work and traveling that I've been away a while (love making that money though!). However, I decided to check out the forum again and wanted to immediately respond to the thread's title:

Liberal used to essentially mean classically liberal; libertarian... meaning freedom/liberty loving. Freedom from big government = maximum individual freedom...not collectivist.at.all.

Modern liberalism = statism = what the American right essentially despises. (The exception is those social conservatives always bickering about marriage/abortion).

I blame the 60s... "free love" and hippies.  :rollin

It's funny now that I think about it.. many atheists that I know label themselves as liberal.. but when I point out that they are not atheists (that they worship government).. it sets them into a rage.  :biggrin:

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2012, 01:36:59 PM »
Liberal used to essentially mean classically liberal; libertarian... meaning freedom/liberty loving. Freedom from big government = maximum individual freedom...not collectivist.at.all.

Err, no.  That is your personal, very narrow interpretation of the word "liberal". In general it means "open", "generous", "not strict".

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2012, 03:46:38 PM »
I'm been so flipping busy with work and traveling that I've been away a while (love making that money though!). However, I decided to check out the forum again and wanted to immediately respond to the thread's title:

Liberal used to essentially mean classically liberal; libertarian... meaning freedom/liberty loving. Freedom from big government = maximum individual freedom...not collectivist.at.all.

Modern liberalism = statism = what the American right essentially despises. (The exception is those social conservatives always bickering about marriage/abortion).

I blame the 60s... "free love" and hippies.  :rollin

It's funny now that I think about it.. many atheists that I know label themselves as liberal.. but when I point out that they are not atheists (that they worship government).. it sets them into a rage.  :biggrin:

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Offline PraXis

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2012, 03:52:44 PM »
Liberal used to essentially mean classically liberal; libertarian... meaning freedom/liberty loving. Freedom from big government = maximum individual freedom...not collectivist.at.all.

Err, no.  That is your personal, very narrow interpretation of the word "liberal". In general it means "open", "generous", "not strict".

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2012, 04:50:34 PM »
It didn't. It turned into, "here's some of my money, go build roads with it, and keep my grandmother in her home, with health care."

Offline bosk1

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2012, 05:30:57 PM »
Americans are going to have a shorter life expectancy because 2/3 of them are fat fucks. 

FINALLY, I'm in the majority on something!  :victorydance:
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Offline Adami

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2012, 06:01:07 PM »
August 8th, 1964.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2012, 06:04:50 PM »
I guess if you're counting from when the Dixiecrats changed sides, yeah.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2012, 06:48:48 PM »
maximum individual freedom...not collectivist.at.all.

And you are not an anarchist how?  Why not go all the way to being solitary animals?

The entire success of humanity rested SOLELY on its ability to work together.  Nomadic tribes thrived because of organization and planning.  Civilizations flourished because of one's mans acceptance to help another who he may never meet.  "Taking your money" to build roads or "taking your money to create a government body to protect people thousands of miles away from food-born illnesses" is not impinging on your "freedom."  Its your natural requirement as member of a collective group of people working together.   If you don't feel that way, you have no right to be part of the group.

It sucks my taxes are being raised; but knowing some Jack Schmo in Nevada might have health care consoles me.


Offline Super Dude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2012, 06:51:04 PM »
maximum individual freedom...not collectivist.at.all.

And you are not an anarchist how?  Why not go all the way to being solitary animals?

The entire success of humanity rested SOLELY on its ability to work together.  Nomadic tribes thrived because of organization and planning.  Civilizations flourished because of one's mans acceptance to help another who he may never meet.  "Taking your money" to build roads or "taking your money to create a government body to protect people thousands of miles away from food-born illnesses" is not impinging on your "freedom."  Its your natural requirement as member of a collective group of people working together.   If you don't feel that way, you have no right to be part of the group.

It sucks my taxes are being raised; but knowing some Jack Schmo in Nevada might have health care consoles me.

He's a well known libertarian around these parts, actually. Not that I'm disagreeing with you or anything.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2012, 07:16:17 PM »
The second biggest problem with libertarianism is that it only considers "freedom" from a (limited) financial point of view.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2012, 07:27:53 PM »
It also considers freedom to be the be-all, end-all of positive human experience and political life.
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