Author Topic: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?  (Read 13126 times)

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2012, 11:26:35 AM »
Did you start college within the last year or so, and did you discover libertarianism around the same time?

A friend of mine went through a brief libertarian phase not long after he started college, and a lot of your views look really familiar from that. It's natural to want to rebel against the system a bit and back an underdog, but trust me, six months to a year from now, you'll realize that pure libertarianism flat out doesn't work, and that the US incarnation of it is a laughable mess.

I've been a libertarian for about 3 or 4 years. The college I go to is very left-leaning, so that had nothing to do with it. I was raised in a moderate liberal household and strayed into conservatism when I discovered Michael Savage in 10th grade. I eventually realized that liberals and conservatives are equally right and equally wrong, which is why they can both make convincing arguments against one another. Freedom is one big unit. You don't divvy out social freedoms and not economic freedoms or vice versa. This strikes some people as idealistic, but history shows us that the truly unsustainable systems are ones built off of collectivism, coercion, fiat money, and brute force, much like the current system in the United States.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2012, 11:35:25 AM »
This strikes some people as idealistic, but history shows us that the truly unsustainable systems are ones built off of collectivism, coercion, fiat money, and brute force, much like the current system in the United States.

How so? If anything, the totally unstructured ways of living have historically shown themselves as inferior, be that from the barter systems of the Middle Ages to the Western frontier of the US. They were both marked by lawlessness, violence and injustice. To my knowledge, any attempt of true minimum-gov't has failed, mostly because their lack of cohesion made them easy prey for outside forces.

It's easy to point out flaws of existing systems, but I would like to see evidence that the Libertarian utopia is any more feasible than the Communist utopia. To my knowledge any attempt has been quickly reversed by the population because of its adverse effects.

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« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 11:40:50 AM by rumborak »
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2012, 01:43:44 PM »
This strikes some people as idealistic, but history shows us that the truly unsustainable systems are ones built off of collectivism, coercion, fiat money, and brute force, much like the current system in the United States.



Offline TL

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2012, 02:27:02 PM »
I've been a libertarian for about 3 or 4 years. The college I go to is very left-leaning, so that had nothing to do with it.
The type of college you go to has nothing to do with it. It's more just hitting that point in your life where you go out on your own more than you ever have, and really start to re-evaluate things for yourself. It's good. It's a time of philosophical exploration. There's no problem with giving different philosophies and ideologies a try. Just always be sure to keep an open mind, get all the facts, and be open to hearing both the pros and cons of any ideology.

(Side note, keep in mind that I'm more familiar with the Canadian notions of 'liberal' and 'conservative', so that may cause some inconsistencies here. Terms like 'liberal', 'conservative', 'libertarian', etc tend to be very distorted in the US).

No ideology is going to be 100% right about everything. Again, it's tempting to abandon the more major ones when you find things you disagree with, and go for an underdog. That period of trying out different ideas and forming your own political beliefs is very important.
Libertarians do tend to have some good talking points, and on a very surface level, it can look very appealing. It does tend to fall apart under closer scrutiny though. Libertarianism tends to not take into account the less fortunate, or even just people born into a life with fewer advantages and opportunities. A society can be judged by how it treats its most helpless and disadvantaged.

The whole 'saving our freedom' thing sounds great, until you realize that it's not really at risk in the first place.

Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2012, 04:27:47 PM »
How so? If anything, the totally unstructured ways of living have historically shown themselves as inferior, be that from the barter systems of the Middle Ages to the Western frontier of the US. They were both marked by lawlessness, violence and injustice. To my knowledge, any attempt of true minimum-gov't has failed, mostly because their lack of cohesion made them easy prey for outside forces.

It's easy to point out flaws of existing systems, but I would like to see evidence that the Libertarian utopia is any more feasible than the Communist utopia. To my knowledge any attempt has been quickly reversed by the population because of its adverse effects.

The Middle Ages are not comparable to libertarianism, as people were living under monarchy, theocracy, and feudalism- very authoritarian philosophies. And a lot has been written on the not-so-wild West, like this article here.

Countries often heralded as the most libertarian in the world include Switzerland, New Zealand, Estonia, and Lichtenstein. Hong Kong also has the freest market in the world according to the Economic Freedom of the World Index. Are we to believe that Hong Kong would fall apart if they legalized, say, gay marriage and marijuana? Of course not. Anti-libertarians love bringing Somalia into the discussion, just as eagerly as they love smearing libertarians as "Randroids." Somalia is really just an exercise in anarchy and most libertarians promote some form of government. I'm not as extreme as other libertarians and I probably wouldn't even eviscerate the government to the extent that Ron Paul would. I would start by eliminating the most unpopular government institutions and go from there.

My final point is that I'm not promoting a "utopia." It's in fact the statists who get utopian and think the government can root out every single problem in society. There will always be injustice. There will always be inequality. There will always be suffering. Nothing will ever fully erase these problems from the human condition.

Libertarianism tends to not take into account the less fortunate, or even just people born into a life with fewer advantages and opportunities. A society can be judged by how it treats its most helpless and disadvantaged.

You're talking to a vegan here, and someone who's volunteered literally hundreds of hours at nursing homes, homeless shelters, and women's shelters. My family also donates a lot of money to charity. It's a very common misconception that libertarians are just cold, heartless people who care about no one but themselves. The first thing that sets us apart is our realization that charity enforced through the barrel of a gun is not really charity at all. If someone mugged you and gave your money to charity, would you be OK with it? No. It was a fundamental abrogation against your private property. The second thing that sets libertarians apart is that we have a much deeper understanding of why people become victims in the first place. What you often see is the government, through its incompetence or malevolence, creating entire classes of victims, who are not coincidentally the same people who push for handouts and bigger government. Look at health for example. Everyone in this country was relatively healthy until the government started unleashing poisons upon us like fluoride, aspartame, trans fats, high fructose corn syrup, MSG etc. We now have a class of people in this country who are ill and rely on tax payer dollars for medical treatment. Does that mean they're bad people or that they shouldn't be helped. Of course not. You just have to understand how they became victims in the place and attack the root problem rather than masking things with welfare. Unfortunately, there are also some in our society who deserve to be disadvantaged. I hate to use anecdotal evidence, but a former homeless man and welfare recipient has been stalking and harassing me since early January. He's terrorized around 7 people recently, including Charlie Dominici. This individual fakes having a disability and games the system to support his fruitless career and voracious marijuana habit. There are many on welfare who are like this, and they most certain deserve a lower status than honest, hard working people and innovators.

The whole 'saving our freedom' thing sounds great, until you realize that it's not really at risk in the first place.

Am I wrong for being concerned about something like The Patriot Act? Did you know that at any time, I could be seized indefinitely, without a warrant, tried without due process, and tortured by the U.S. government? Here's a 16 year old homeschooled boy who was captured using the Patriot Act. It could happen to anyone! Or how about the TSA borderline molesting people in airports? Our freedom's not at risk my ass.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 04:34:53 PM by MondayMorningLunatic »

Offline jsem

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 04:35:06 PM »
Actually, this article provides a little more insight too into Somalia:
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880

Offline TL

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2012, 04:53:28 PM »
Quote
You're talking to a vegan here, and someone who's volunteered literally hundreds of hours at nursing homes, homeless shelters, and women's shelters. My family also donates a lot of money to charity. It's a very common misconception that libertarians are just cold, heartless people who care about no one but themselves.
I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm saying the philosophy of pure libertarianism would not work out well for the less fortunate. It's fantastic that you give to charity and do volunteer work.

However, there are things the government can do and provide that just aren't possible through personal charity. Personal charity can't really provide the poor with proper health care, for example.

I'm not saying all libertarians are 'cold, heartless people'. It's usually ignorance or lack of proper perspective, not malice. It's mostly not really thinking the whole thing through.

The government collecting taxes and using it to provide services isn't 'through the barrel of a gun'. It's a social contract that comes with living in a society. Those who can afford to contribute do, and we all benefit.

Quote
Look at health for example. Everyone in this country was relatively healthy until the government started unleashing poisons upon us like fluoride, aspartame, trans fats, high fructose corn syrup, MSG etc.
Okay, this is just getting silly. Nevermind that life expectancy over the past half century has skyrocketed, and that quality of life has dramatically improved. Fluoride? Really? Chemicals are used to treat drinking water, because otherwise it would be full of bacteria and numerous contaminants that would make people sick, and in many cases, kill them.

As for health care, most Americans would spend LESS money under a universal system. On average, Canadians pay far less per capita than Americans do for health care when everything is taken into account. It's cheaper, because people don't have to worry nearly as much about outrageous medical bills. As a result, there's more of an emphasis on preventative care and early diagnosis. We live longer, we live healthier lives, and we pay less per person for it, because of our universal health care system.

Also, are you really trying to discredit welfare with the story of one crazy homeless dude? Yes, occasionally someone will try to game or abuse the system. In a massive population, you'll sometimes get a few here and there who do. Those people tend to be statistically insignificant.
Quote
There are many on welfare who are like this, and they most certain deserve a lower status than honest, hard working people and innovators.
Nice vague, unsubstantiated statement there. Saying it doesn't make it so.
Also, how does welfare in any way hurt 'working people and innovators'?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 05:09:41 PM by TL »

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2012, 05:11:12 PM »
The Middle Ages as a whole aren't representative of libertarianism realized, no. But that sort of libertarian world is actually the reason for the sharp decline of freemen and the beginning of feudalism in France in the aftermath of Carolingian decline. The power vacuum made way for the rise of individual lords and maiors, creating what we know today as the tyranny of aristocratic class. All from a power vacuum caused by the total obliteration of centralized governance.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2012, 05:23:45 PM »
MML, let me ask you something;

If rather than a concept, the 'social contract' were an actual contract, and you were allowed to opt out, would you? Meaning that you don't have to pay any taxes, but in return, you're not allowed to take advantage of anything that taxes pay for.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2012, 05:54:31 PM »
He'd say yes if it were possible - but then he'd be trapped in his own property since public property I presume cannot be used or touched - like the road outside his house.

This wouldn't happen in a free society, because there'd be money to be made in letting property owners next to your privately owned road use the road, for some kind of a fee or some other voluntary agreement.

And to be honest, this thing with poverty is.. well - maybe it IS better without government welfare and maybe it IS better with private charities:


You may say a thousand other things about this, and there are other factors etc, but it's a fun stat.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2012, 06:12:34 PM »
Yeah I took a look at that website, and...well, I will say one thing: at least their message is consistent.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2012, 08:06:12 PM »

Countries often heralded as the most libertarian in the world include Switzerland, New Zealand, Estonia, and Lichtenstein.

You say that, but if you actually lived in any of those countries your eyes would piss blood at all the "socialism" around you.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2012, 08:28:24 PM »
Oh my god, yes. Seeing that list as a list of libertarian countries only shows complete unfamiliarity with them.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2012, 04:12:48 AM »
The government collecting taxes and using it to provide services isn't 'through the barrel of a gun'. It's a social contract that comes with living in a society. Those who can afford to contribute do, and we all benefit.

Of course it is. What happens if you refuse to pay your income tax? The state will knock down your door and imprison you. How do you feel about my robber analogy? Would you be OK if someone stole your money and gave it to charity? Furthermore, what happens if it's a charity that you don't agree with? What if the robber's conception of "charity" is actually paying off the interest on his debt and blowing up innocent civilians in a foreign country?

Nevermind that life expectancy over the past half century has skyrocketed, and that quality of life has dramatically improved.

This is the first generation in 2 centuries where Americans will be sicker and have a shorter life expectancy than their parents. But this couldn't possibly be because of the FDA and USDA because they're doing their job just wonderfully.

MML, let me ask you something;

If rather than a concept, the 'social contract' were an actual contract, and you were allowed to opt out, would you? Meaning that you don't have to pay any taxes, but in return, you're not allowed to take advantage of anything that taxes pay for.

No. Again, you come to the idea that use ≠ consent. Things haven't gotten bad to the point where I would want to "secede" from the United States. Living here doesn't neccessraily mean that I agree with the income tax, just as pacifists don't "endorse" the War On Terror by living here. We're trying to work within the system to change the system

You say that, but if you actually lived in any of those countries your eyes would piss blood at all the "socialism" around you.

If an atheist visited countries heralded as "secular" they would piss blood at all the religion around them. 70% of Swedes belong to the Church of Sweden. Churches, religious organizations, and religious schools receive funding from the government. Buddhism still dominates many aspects of life in Japan. The argument isn't necessarily that these countries are "pure," just that they're moving in the right direction. As it stands there has never been a successful country which recognizes atheism as an official ideology. Atheist Russia and China killed hundreds of millions, but does that necessarily invalidate atheism? No.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2012, 07:01:03 AM »

Nevermind that life expectancy over the past half century has skyrocketed, and that quality of life has dramatically improved.

This is the first generation in 2 centuries where Americans will be sicker and have a shorter life expectancy than their parents. But this couldn't possibly be because of the FDA and USDA because they're doing their job just wonderfully.

Americans are going to have a shorter life expectancy because 2/3 of them are fat fucks.  Not much to puzzle out there.  And that has everything to do with how cheap and available junk food is (making it extremely attractive to the urban poor), the move towards high-fructose corn syrup and salt as the major constituents of our diet, a lack of exercise for all age groups (fostered by the overwhelming focus on the automobile for transportation) and a lack of knowledge (or people willing to care) about the problems.  You could just as easily blame the "free market" for America's obesity problems.

Quote
You say that, but if you actually lived in any of those countries your eyes would piss blood at all the "socialism" around you.

If an atheist visited countries heralded as "secular" they would piss blood at all the religion around them. 70% of Swedes belong to the Church of Sweden. Churches, religious organizations, and religious schools receive funding from the government. Buddhism still dominates many aspects of life in Japan. The argument isn't necessarily that these countries are "pure," just that they're moving in the right direction. As it stands there has never been a successful country which recognizes atheism as an official ideology. Atheist Russia and China killed hundreds of millions, but does that necessarily invalidate atheism? No.

Sorry, what?  I don't know what this is about.  Atheism isn't a positive belief system; people, or countries, being atheist has no inherent implications about the rest of their demographics/politics/government/etc.  Saying a country is libertarian, or the "most" libertarian, does.  Yeah, Switzerland has low tax rates, but the government also has conscription, requires people to buy health insurance, has a transportation system built primarily upon public transport and cycling, has extremely stringent environmental regulations, and a well-funded public school system.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2012, 07:12:02 AM »
The robber analogy is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Sadly I've heard it a lot.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2012, 08:52:01 AM »
No. Again, you come to the idea that use ≠ consent. Things haven't gotten bad to the point where I would want to "secede" from the United States. Living here doesn't neccessraily mean that I agree with the income tax, just as pacifists don't "endorse" the War On Terror by living here. We're trying to work within the system to change the system.

So you agree, then, that you are indeed consenting to live in the States, which makes your robber analogy quite invalid and irrelevant.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2012, 09:31:10 AM »
MML, Canada has much more regulation and government involvement when it comes to food, medicine, etc, than the US, and Canada also has a higher average life expectancy and higher quality of life. Plus, as has been pointed out, a lot of health problems in the US come from people shoving excessive amounts of terribly unhealthy food into their fat faces; something they have the freedom to do. The market has decided in the US that people want to be fat and unhealthy. So I guess that worked out well.
Seriously, you REALLY can't blame government regulation for that.

Oh, and just as an aside, Canada also has a much more regulated banking system, which allowed us to avoid most of the worst of the economic crisis that the US faced. Currently, we have one of the strongest banking systems in the world thanks to that government regulation. Again, no ideology works for everything 100% of the time. You need a mix of philosophies.

As for the 'robber' analogy, it doesn't work, because I can choose to live elsewhere. If I wanted to, I could go live in the libertarian paradise of Somalia. However, in exchange for my taxes here, I have access to roads, public education, subsidized post secondary education, clean drinking water and safe food, access to quality health care, emergency services, telecommunications infrastructure, sanitation services, and so much more. For a bunch of private citizens to get together and just buy what they needed at the time, it would cost so much more, and be far less efficient. Even if some of it goes toward things I don't need or want, it's still a great deal overall.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 09:36:44 AM by TL »

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2012, 10:13:05 AM »
MML, Canada has much more regulation and government involvement when it comes to food, medicine, etc, than the US, and Canada also has a higher average life expectancy and higher quality of life. Plus, as has been pointed out, a lot of health problems in the US come from people shoving excessive amounts of terribly unhealthy food into their fat faces; something they have the freedom to do. The market has decided in the US that people want to be fat and unhealthy. So I guess that worked out well.
Seriously, you REALLY can't blame government regulation for that.

Oh, and just as an aside, Canada also has a much more regulated banking system, which allowed us to avoid most of the worst of the economic crisis that the US faced. Currently, we have one of the strongest banking systems in the world thanks to that government regulation. Again, no ideology works for everything 100% of the time. You need a mix of philosophies.

As for the 'robber' analogy, it doesn't work, because I can choose to live elsewhere. If I wanted to, I could go live in the libertarian paradise of Somalia. However, in exchange for my taxes here, I have access to roads, public education, subsidized post secondary education, clean drinking water and safe food, access to quality health care, emergency services, telecommunications infrastructure, sanitation services, and so much more. For a bunch of private citizens to get together and just buy what they needed at the time, it would cost so much more, and be far less efficient. Even if some of it goes toward things I don't need or want, it's still a great deal overall.

And now that you mention it, I can think of another "libertarian paradise." It's called Amish land.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2012, 10:37:40 AM »
If an atheist visited countries heralded as "secular" they would piss blood at all the religion around them. 70% of Swedes belong to the Church of Sweden. Churches, religious organizations, and religious schools receive funding from the government. Buddhism still dominates many aspects of life in Japan. The argument isn't necessarily that these countries are "pure," just that they're moving in the right direction. As it stands there has never been a successful country which recognizes atheism as an official ideology. Atheist Russia and China killed hundreds of millions, but does that necessarily invalidate atheism? No.
70% of Sweden being in the Church of Sweden means nothing. I probably even am, yet I do not affiliate with them otherwise - don't attend or anything. Everyone born before 1996 or something in Sweden was automatically a member, it was state religion. Most people are agnostics I'd say in Sweden. It's HIGHLY secularized.

And atheism is not an ideology.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2012, 10:59:33 AM »
To drive the case home, I am Roman Catholic, and it says so on just about any official German document associated with me.

I believe that should seal it.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2012, 11:04:21 AM »
Sorry, what?  I don't know what this is about.  Atheism isn't a positive belief system; people, or countries, being atheist has no inherent implications about the rest of their demographics/politics/government/etc.  Saying a country is libertarian, or the "most" libertarian, does.  Yeah, Switzerland has low tax rates, but the government also has conscription, requires people to buy health insurance, has a transportation system built primarily upon public transport and cycling, has extremely stringent environmental regulations, and a well-funded public school system.

I guess what I'm trying to say (and this should have been my initial argument against rumborak) is that it's a fallacy to say that something won't work because it hasn't been fully implemented yet. That's an argument from ignorance is it not? By the way, I actually consider environmental regulation to be a part of libertarianism because pollution is a form of aggression.

The robber analogy is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Sadly I've heard it a lot.

Then refute it.

And now that you mention it, I can think of another "libertarian paradise." It's called Amish land.

Amish land? Since when was being a libertarian the same as being a Luddite?

70% of Sweden being in the Church of Sweden means nothing. I probably even am, yet I do not affiliate with them otherwise - don't attend or anything. Everyone born before 1996 or something in Sweden was automatically a member, it was state religion. Most people are agnostics I'd say in Sweden. It's HIGHLY secularized.

So according to theseoafs, you consent to the Church of Sweden simply by your refusal to revoke your membership.

Offline TL

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2012, 11:25:31 AM »
So I can only assume that MML is preparing a response to my points. It would be a bit silly to just ignore it, which is why I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2012, 11:29:00 AM »
BTW, one very important thing to point out regarding that list of Liechtenstein etc.

I can totally see how a casual Libertarian could think that Liechtenstein is the libertarian utopia. It has very low taxes, and its residents are rich.
You will however notice one thing: Liechtenstein is tiny. It has 30,000 inhabitants. And now it becomes obvious why Liechtenstein does so well. It doesn't provide anything really, all it does is be a tax loop hole where non-Liechtensteinians can illegally keep their money. Given how huge the EU is, this provides a massive influx for Liechtenstein, thus being able to luxuriate its 30k citizens very well with a 1.2% tax rate.
Now imagine most EU countries doing such a low tax rate. Poof, there goes that concept of wealth. Now this stream from rich people's money distributes across the whole EU, and all is left is the countries being bankrupt because of the low tax rate.

In summary, I think Libertarian thought often preys on the ignorance of the listener.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2012, 11:35:23 AM »
So according to theseoafs, you consent to the Church of Sweden simply by your refusal to revoke your membership.

According to me, he consented to living in the state, and "membership" in the church was one of the consequences to that consent.

The robber analogy is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Sadly I've heard it a lot.

Then refute it.

It's been refuted.  You can choose to live elsewhere, so being taxed is nothing like being mugged.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 11:56:26 AM by theseoafs »

Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2012, 11:52:25 AM »


Basically, sans other information, that graph is using the post hoc fallacy. The decline in the poverty rate could have come to a halt shortly after the legislation (and let's not forget social security was already in effect) for many other economic reasons.

I'm sure this graph and it's numbers could be used slightly differently to make the opposite point.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2012, 12:02:14 PM »
And I'd like to know for sure whether that information actually comes from census.gov. For all we know, it's all made up.

So according to theseoafs, you consent to the Church of Sweden simply by your refusal to revoke your membership.

According to me, he consented to living in the state, and "membership" in the church was one of the consequences to that consent.

The robber analogy is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Sadly I've heard it a lot.

Then refute it.

It's been refuted.  You can choose to live elsewhere, so being taxed is nothing like being mugged.

Oh, I was just gonna say that Amish land is the refutation. They don't pay taxes, but they don't buy into the society either. If you don't want the government poking into your life, just become Amish. They have their own hospitals and everything.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2012, 12:06:18 PM »
Excellent. I shall hereby combine the two refutations into one mega-refutation:

"Being taxed is nothing like being robbed because you can choose to live elsewhere, including at least one place where you are not taxed at all."

Lovely.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2012, 12:14:35 PM »
To MML, because I was rereading the older posts: just because you want economic equity (i.e. a progressive tax or otherwise) doesn't make you a Marxist or mean you hate the rich. Heck, I'm what most would consider part of the 1%, and I can see that shit be fucked up.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2012, 12:43:01 PM »
So I can only assume that MML is preparing a response to my points. It would be a bit silly to just ignore it, which is why I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

There's a lot I could dissect from your initial post. Do you even know that Canada has more regulation and government intervention than the United States? Are you sure that your quality of life and healthcare system are really all that great? There's evidence that quality of life varies wildly across Canada and your healthcare system isn't all it's cracked up to be. How are those Inuits doing? Wasn't it you who said you can judge a society by how well it treats it most underprivileged? Is your standard of excellence merely how a country stacks up to the United States? Did you know that the U.S. NEVER manifested anything as bad as the Great Depression or current recession before central banking? And finally, where would Canada be without the immense prosperity and culture generated by capitalism in the United States?

"Being taxed is nothing like being robbed because you can choose to live elsewhere, including at least one place where you are not taxed at all."

a) It's not fair to have to move to secure a fundamental right (in this case, the right to your money which is private property)
b) Most people, myself included, wouldn't have the money to move and it would be difficult adjusting to a new culture.
c) As I already stated, I don't find taxation to be sufficiently bad enough that I would want to move.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 01:02:32 PM by MondayMorningLunatic »

Offline Vivace

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2012, 01:18:14 PM »
Pretty much started when Liberals started calling the right bigots, racists and uncivilized. name calling has been around for a while but you start throwing around the bigot and racist words, you know the shit is going to hit the fan.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2012, 03:11:20 PM »
Do you even know that Canada has more regulation and government intervention than the United States?
Yes. A LOT more. This is pretty common knowledge, and any amount of research will back it up.

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Are you sure that your quality of life and healthcare system are really all that great? There's evidence that quality of life varies wildly across Canada and your healthcare system isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Again, yes. Note, I never said our system or standard of living were perfect. It is substantially better than in the US though. Most of the countries that are doing better than Canada have far more socialism in their governments.
On average, we live longer than Americans, those longer lives are much healthier, a far greater percentage of our population has access to excellent care, the care they receive is among the best in the world, and people don't break the bank visiting the doctor, the ER, or receiving medication they need.
There's certainly room for improvement, but between Canada and the US when it comes to healthcare, it's no contest.

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How are those Inuits doing? Wasn't it you who said you can judge a society by how well it treats it most underprivileged?
Most of the Inuit population in this country choose to live outside of the system. In fact, you'd probably love it. No taxes, and they still receive some government services.
Yes, there are dealings from our history with our native population that we're less than proud of, but none of it had to do with how much or little socialist policy or regulation there was. It's a completely separate matter. Plus, again, coming from the US, you don't exactly have any high ground to speak from there.

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Is your standard of excellence merely how a country stacks up to the United States?
For the sake of this discussion, the comparisons are largely between Canada and the US because it's a clear side by side comparison of a country that has more regulation and socialist policies vs a country with less. On the world stage, Canada does well across the board. There's room for improvement, but by any metric you choose, we're doing quite well.
 

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Did you know that the U.S. NEVER manifested anything as bad as the Great Depression or current recession before central banking?
Are you... are you actually using the Great Depression in favor of your argument? One of the top causes of the Great Depression was a lack of regulation.

Again, what you're not getting is that no one is saying we should get rid of capitalism entirely. We're just saying it isn't a magic fix-all. Every developed country in the world has a mixed-market system that combines capitalism and socialism to varying degrees, and it's like that for a reason. Neither system should be applied 100%. It has been said over and over. It's all about balance, rather than blindly following one ideology.

Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2012, 03:33:45 PM »
Yes. A LOT more. This is pretty common knowledge, and any amount of research will back it up.

This is still an unsubstantiated statement on your part. The United States Code of Federal Regulation (CFR, not to be confused with the globalist shills) is enormous. Can you prove that more regulations exist in Canada than this?

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A One of the top causes of the Great Depression was a lack of regulation.

Myth. Total myth. This article gives you some insight into the government intervention prior to the Great Depression, but doesn't even cover some of the nuttier stuff like Hoover paying farmers to destroy their crops and kill livestock.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2012, 04:09:33 PM »
Pretty much started when Liberals started calling the right bigots, racists and uncivilized. name calling has been around for a while but you start throwing around the bigot and racist words, you know the shit is going to hit the fan.


That was pretty much "it" for me. This idea that conservatives are bigots or racists is completely absurd.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2012, 04:10:32 PM »
Pretty much started when Liberals started calling the right bigots, racists and uncivilized. name calling has been around for a while but you start throwing around the bigot and racist words, you know the shit is going to hit the fan.


That was pretty much "it" for me. This idea that conservatives are bigots or racists is completely absurd.

I don't think it's that conservatives are bigots or racist, but that bigots and racists tend to be conservatives.
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