Author Topic: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?  (Read 13374 times)

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Offline soundgarden

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2012, 07:40:40 PM »
It also considers freedom to be the be-all, end-all of positive human experience and political life.

"freedom" discussed today is such a cliched line its hard to know what it actually means anymore.  Does the right even realize that evil socialist Europe has, in fact, more "Freedom" than the US?

Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2012, 08:53:07 PM »
It also considers freedom to be the be-all, end-all of positive human experience and political life.

I'm sure most of us were very happy as a kid, when we had very little freedom.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2012, 08:56:37 PM »
Yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious from my post that I don't think it's the most important thing ever. :P
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2012, 06:28:51 AM »
The second biggest problem with libertarianism is that it only considers "freedom" from a (limited) financial point of view.

That's not true at all. Libertarians tend to be very in favor of social freedom, in fact moreso than many liberals who support things like gun control and hate speech laws. I think it's been established by now that the anti-libertarians on this board are really just anti-capitalists.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2012, 06:39:20 AM »
I'm very much a proponent of capitalism, just not the hard and fast 'pure' capitalism you crave.
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Offline PraXis

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2012, 07:05:28 AM »
Libertarians are not anarchists. We believe in a limited federal government which strictly protects our borders (not invades other countries under false pretenses) and our individual liberties; most importantly, our PROPERTY RIGHTS. Every thing else you leave to the states and let them do their own thing. Bordering states can partner up if they feel some policy will provide an economic/social benefit. If it succeeds, it can move on to other states and eventually (if the particular idea/plan continues to work well), you can amend the Constitution to make it a federal policy. However, if something fails, then it becomes that state's problem, and not every American taxpayer's issue. Plus, we're broke!...and so is Europe!!

As for Europe more free than US? BS. Higher income taxes, with VATs on top of that!? No thanks! Strict gun control (great way to control the population), no thanks! $9-10/gal gas? No thanks! Oh wait, they have "free" healthcare.  :o

It IS essentially a "survival of the fittest" mindset, but that's how this country was formed; self-reliance. Any collectivism was voluntary, not forced. :)

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« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 07:12:43 AM by PraXis »

Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2012, 11:40:06 AM »
Quote
Remember the Libertarian motto.. we're going to take over and LEAVE YOU ALONE!

Didn't realize libertarians had a rocket ship, and a planet to colonize.


The second biggest problem with libertarianism is that it only considers "freedom" from a (limited) financial point of view.

That's not true at all. Libertarians tend to be very in favor of social freedom, in fact moreso than many liberals who support things like gun control and hate speech laws. I think it's been established by now that the anti-libertarians on this board are really just anti-capitalists.

There's freedom on the books, and there's freedom in actuality. Force is sometimes requires to ensure freedom.

And would do you mean by capitalism? What Adam Smith came up with? Or what Von Mises surmised?

Offline jsem

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2012, 02:40:08 PM »
Libertarians are not anarchists. We believe in a limited federal government which strictly protects our borders (not invades other countries under false pretenses) and our individual liberties; most importantly, our PROPERTY RIGHTS.
Uhm. Lol? I guess you're right, because being libertarian doesn't mean your an ancap, but ancaps are always libertarians.

There is no consensus, so saying "we believe" and making a statement for every libertarian doesn't work either. Plus, not every libertarian believes a government ought to exist at all.


The second biggest problem with libertarianism is that it only considers "freedom" from a (limited) financial point of view.
Absolutely not true. Many libertarians arrive at their stances from deontological ethics, i.e. the non-aggression principle. Basically, every act of aggression is deemed unethical and everything must be done voluntarily.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2012, 12:04:46 PM »
As for Europe more free than US? BS. Higher income taxes, with VATs on top of that!? No thanks! Strict gun control (great way to control the population), no thanks! $9-10/gal gas? No thanks! Oh wait, they have "free" healthcare.  :o
Because gas prices and income tax are certainly the best measures of freedom.

Offline soundgarden

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2012, 12:28:09 PM »
As for Europe more free than US? BS. Higher income taxes, with VATs on top of that!? No thanks! Strict gun control (great way to control the population), no thanks! $9-10/gal gas? No thanks! Oh wait, they have "free" healthcare.  :o

Ah finally; so THAT is Libs' definition of freedom.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2012, 12:31:13 PM »
Does the right even realize that evil socialist Europe has, in fact, more "Freedom" than the US?

Please.  Every "enlightened" liberal makes this argument.  It may even be true that, depending on how you define it, Europe is more free than America.  I can't say it's not.  But the way you categorically say this makes it completely removed from any notion of reality.  I would never in a million years want to deal with Britain's insulting excuse for libel laws.  As for this:

Because gas prices and income tax are certainly the best measures of freedom.

They're maybe not the best measures, but they do matter.  Low gases prices effectively equal freedom of movement without having to rely on public transportation.  Any money being taken from you in taxes is money you don't have the freedom to keep for yourself to spend as you like.

I know that, depending on how you look at it, choice doesn't equal freedom.  You'd probably rather have two good choices than four shitty ones.  But no one ever talks about how any service provided by the government creates a situation where the citizens become dependent on that government for their basic livelihood.  Dependency absolutely is one of the opposites of freedom.  And it seems to me that Europe has the notion of dependency on government far more culturally ingrained into it than America does.  How is that a more free society?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2012, 12:46:24 PM »
They're maybe not the best measures, but they do matter.  Low gases prices effectively equal freedom of movement without having to rely on public transportation.  Any money being taken from you in taxes is money you don't have the freedom to keep for yourself to spend as you like.

I know that, depending on how you look at it, choice doesn't equal freedom.  You'd probably rather have two good choices than four shitty ones.  But no one ever talks about how any service provided by the government creates a situation where the citizens become dependent on that government for their basic livelihood.  Dependency absolutely is one of the opposites of freedom.  And it seems to me that Europe has the notion of dependency on government far more culturally ingrained into it than America does.  How is that a more free society?

I really don't think you're looking at the problem correctly. People have to rely on public transportation in Europe because there's so many god damn people so close together. For most of the US, this doesn't apply. Equating a car with freedom is looking at the question of freedom through highly skewed and biased lenses. To me, you're lumping a whole bunch of societal and population problems into something that is somehow the "governments" fault, and trying to claim people are less free because of it (and at that point, I might partially agree with you).


Offline El Barto

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2012, 12:54:09 PM »
As for Europe more free than US? BS. Higher income taxes, with VATs on top of that!? No thanks! Strict gun control (great way to control the population), no thanks! $9-10/gal gas? No thanks! Oh wait, they have "free" healthcare.  :o
The VATs are no different than the state income tax or sales tax that we pay.  Wait, it is different.  It's fairly applied and unobtrusive. 

As for gun control being a means to control the population, that's just ridiculous.  None of the people who scream about gun rights will ever rise up against a the government.  The Koresh's and Weaver's of the world are few and far between, and usually manage to get themselves killed pretty quickly anyway (and rightly so, IMO).  The people who care the most about gun ownership are the people who insist on a MINE! MINE! MINE! mentality.

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Offline soundgarden

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2012, 12:57:24 PM »
Does the right even realize that evil socialist Europe has, in fact, more "Freedom" than the US?

Please.  Every "enlightened" liberal makes this argument.  It may even be true that, depending on how you define it, Europe is more free than America.  I can't say it's not.  But the way you categorically say this makes it completely removed from any notion of reality.  I would never in a million years want to deal with Britain's insulting excuse for libel laws.  As for this:

Because gas prices and income tax are certainly the best measures of freedom.

They're maybe not the best measures, but they do matter.  Low gases prices effectively equal freedom of movement without having to rely on public transportation.  Any money being taken from you in taxes is money you don't have the freedom to keep for yourself to spend as you like.

I know that, depending on how you look at it, choice doesn't equal freedom.  You'd probably rather have two good choices than four shitty ones.  But no one ever talks about how any service provided by the government creates a situation where the citizens become dependent on that government for their basic livelihood.  Dependency absolutely is one of the opposites of freedom.  And it seems to me that Europe has the notion of dependency on government far more culturally ingrained into it than America does.  How is that a more free society?

You depend on the government organizing a military force to protect you.  You depend on the government to check food and drug imports free from mal intent. I depend on the government to protect me because of my race from bigots.  We depend on the government for anti-trust laws.  Europeans depend on the government to give fair health policies that are not functions of business profit-cost balance sheets. 

People were once dependent on private interests but increasingly no longer because private interests are NOT DEPENDABLE.  Their purpose is profit, not the betterment of society and its people.

It doesn’t help when libertarians paint government programs as evil tax sucking purposeless institutions.  This is absolutely clearly not the case. 

Also, if you are going to use the mobility argument; then again check out Europe.  The people are far more mobile.  It costs nearly three times as much to go from Paris to Marseille than it does to take the train.  Yet I get there anyway (faster, without the hassle, and with a glass or two of wine)  Am I less free?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 01:06:52 PM by soundgarden »

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2012, 02:24:40 PM »
You depend on the government organizing a military force to protect you.  You depend on the government to check food and drug imports free from mal intent. I depend on the government to protect me because of my race from bigots.  We depend on the government for anti-trust laws.  Europeans depend on the government to give fair health policies that are not functions of business profit-cost balance sheets. 

Right, but that doesn't mean this is necessarily a great thing.  It's just the least worst option we've come up with as a race.

Quote
People were once dependent on private interests but increasingly no longer because private interests are NOT DEPENDABLE.  Their purpose is profit, not the betterment of society and its people.

Depending on how you look at it, businesses are the most honest they've been in human history.  Have you heard of company towns?  Have you seen the snake oil that used to be passed off as real medicine?  It makes the sexual energizer pills they sell at the gas station seem downright honest by comparison.

Do you really think the purpose of the government is the betterment of society and its people?  Because it's a very silly idea.

Why is the argument always presented as government or private business?  Why aren't government regulated markets more discussed?

Quote
It doesn’t help when libertarians paint government programs as evil tax sucking purposeless institutions.  This is absolutely clearly not the case.

Do you think all government programs worth our tax dollars?

And please - I don't think I've ever posted that public roads are a bad idea or anything nutty like that.  There's libertarians and then there's the Ron Paul devotees.  I don't know if I'd self-identify as Libertarian anywhere other than my Facebook page, but don't lump me in with them without some kind of reason, please.

Quote
Also, if you are going to use the mobility argument; then again check out Europe.  The people are far more mobile.  It costs nearly three times as much to go from Paris to Marseille than it does to take the train.  Yet I get there anyway (faster, without the hassle, and with a glass or two of wine)  Am I less free?

The government is creating an economic situation that frames the choice in a specific way.  You can have the benefits of driving, but they come at a higher cost than just doing it using their train system.  There is bias and control inherent to the choice.
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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2012, 03:34:39 PM »
Right, left, middle doesn't really matter when the country is divided.  Nobody can agree on how to run a country because of their own selfish arrogance.  To me, all of it is a collection of dirty words until our so-called leaders figure out that we should all be on the same side.
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Offline jsem

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2012, 04:21:02 PM »
Or maybe a country doesn't have to be run. Maybe no one has to be top dog.

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2012, 05:06:38 PM »
Only idiots assume muslims are terrorists and only idiots assume conservatives are bigoted racists.

And there are some things I've probably said (and certainly others) that aren't true of liberals as a whole.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2012, 05:39:07 PM »
They're maybe not the best measures, but they do matter.  Low gases prices effectively equal freedom of movement without having to rely on public transportation.  Any money being taken from you in taxes is money you don't have the freedom to keep for yourself to spend as you like.

I know that, depending on how you look at it, choice doesn't equal freedom.  You'd probably rather have two good choices than four shitty ones.  But no one ever talks about how any service provided by the government creates a situation where the citizens become dependent on that government for their basic livelihood.  Dependency absolutely is one of the opposites of freedom.  And it seems to me that Europe has the notion of dependency on government far more culturally ingrained into it than America does.  How is that a more free society?

Not dependency. Trust. In any case, dependency is an inherent part of civilization, and the only reason capitalism exists at all. If everyone were completely self dependent, there would be no need for a market, and at the same time nothing of note would be achieved because true progress only happens when people have the freedom to specialize, which is made possible by things like food and shelter are taken care of exclusively by other parts of the society. Gas is an interesting one as, in the US at least, the price and availability is something that is more and more at the mercy of foreign countries that are able to supply it, so if anything gas is a severe restriction on your freedom imo.

Individual freedoms do not exist in a vacuum, every freedom that a populace has can have a positive or negative effect on other freedoms. So it is not a question of "giving up freedoms", but instead "which freedoms do I value most?"

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2012, 05:57:27 PM »
The government is creating an economic situation that frames the choice in a specific way.  You can have the benefits of driving, but they come at a higher cost than just doing it using their train system.  There is bias and control inherent to the choice.

Building tons of highways and not charging user fees isn't biased towards a choice of transport?  Subsidizing roads, parking, organizing the building of suburbs, low density neighbourhoods, and single-use development isn't biased towards a choice of transport?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2012, 07:16:59 PM »
Or maybe a country doesn't have to be run. Maybe no one has to be top dog.

And maybe I could win the lottery. Maybe I could get laid tonight. Maybe pigs will fly. There's always going to be some asshole out there who wants power. That's why the rest of us are supposed to come together, protecting ourselves from the assholes, but giving up some freedoms in exchange.

Quote
Individual freedoms do not exist in a vacuum, every freedom that a populace has can have a positive or negative effect on other freedoms. So it is not a question of "giving up freedoms", but instead "which freedoms do I value most?"

Pretty much this. Society requires us to make concessions towards each other. A society isn't simply a group of people in a given area, a society is a group of people bound by the same culture.

Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2012, 08:38:58 PM »
People were once dependent on private interests but increasingly no longer because private interests are NOT DEPENDABLE.  Their purpose is profit, not the betterment of society and its people.

Even if we presuppose that all businessmen are just in it for the money, what happens when a businessman makes dumb or unethical decisions? They go out of business. What happens when the government makes dumb or unethical decisions? They often get away with it because the government has a monopoly on force. As counterintuitive as it may seem, private companies actually have more checks and balances to keep them in line.

The real problem is when government and business unite. Some call it fascism, some call it corporatism, some call it crony capitalism, state capitalism, cartelism, protectionism… whatever you call it, this is what really corrupts the private sector. Just as we have a wall of separation between church and state, we need a wall of separation between state and business.

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: When did "liberal" become a dirty word for the american right?
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2012, 08:40:28 PM »
Or maybe a country doesn't have to be run. Maybe no one has to be top dog.
We're human.

Someone will always try to be top dog.