Live CDs vs. Live DVDs

[hefdaddy42]

Sure, the studio version is the most perfect version of the song. But it is also the result of a combination of numerous takes by the separate instruments/vocalists playing and singing separately to combine that most perfect version.

The fact that a live version is a combined group effort on one shot (possible overdubs notwithstanding) is part of the allure of listening to a live performance.  Especially with a band like DT, whose catalogue isn't predicated on simple 4/4 songs with 12-bar blues solos.

[TAC]

Oddly, when I go on a DT binge, I hardly ever listen to the studio albums. I am always going for the bootlegs and will go through their catalog that way.

[MoraWintersoul]

To answer the newly re-phrased question and address some of the upper posters, I'll post again - still DVDs all the way. You guys may argue that "us youngsters" have more free time on our hands, but it is not the case with a lot of people I know. In this economic climate, we are always told we have to study and work really hard and even then be prepared of never succeeding in anything ever. So if we have any sort of hobby and personal life, it consumes a lot of our time as well (though in a more pleasant way than work and other "adult" activities consume yours).

Whenever I watch a DVD, I make a holiday out of it - steal time from whatever activity I may yet have to do (most often from sleep), get some popcorn and lodge myself in front of the screen. For some reason, just listening to the entire concert feels incomplete to me. I prefer many live versions to the studio versions and so I'll listen to many of them when I'm on a "random song"-binge, as opposed to my usual album binges, but if I am to listen to the whole thing, I'll always pick the music and the visuals, because I don't "do" background music. Whenever I listen to music, I don't do anything else. If I have enough time to listen to two hours of a concert, I have enough time to watch them. That's what I do. It lends itself to some quite interesting situations.

Mom: "Milena, why are you watching these fugly old men again?"
Me: "Because I love them, obviously."

Sister: "Are you watching that same concert over and over again?"
Me: *thought bubble* "No, but you obviously can't tell the difference between Live In Tokyo and Awake In Japan."

[TheGreatPretender]

Mom: "Milena, why are you watching these fugly old men again?"
Me: "Because I love them, obviously."

Sister: "Are you watching that same concert again?"
Me: "No, but you obviously can't tell the difference between Live In Tokyo and Awake In Japan."

In my case it would be more like:

Mom: "Ough, that's not fair! I wanna watch too!"

[Jaffa]

Honestly, I don't usually care for live releases much at all.  There have been exceptions, but for the most part, live releases just make me sad because I wasn't actually there. 

[MoraWintersoul]

In my case it would be more like:

Mom: "Ough, that's not fair! I wanna watch too!"

I wish my mom was more like your mom  I'll compile her a list of live ballads and see if she gets into it a bit, she usually gets into all my ballady stuff.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wish my mom was more like your mom  I'll compile her a list of live ballads and see if she gets into it a bit, she usually gets into all my ballady stuff.

Same here. She's also into their crazy progressive stuff. Whenever Outcry instrumental section comes on, or something of the sort, she just says, "Those bastards. They're crazy." Hahah.
But it's Myung that she's the biggest fan of. When I went to the meet and greet last year, I was like, "I have a message for you," and he was like, "What is it?" and I'm like, "My mom says she's in love with you." He got SO flustered, hahahah. 

[MoraWintersoul]

Same here. She's also into their crazy progressive stuff. Whenever Outcry instrumental section comes on, or something of the sort, she just says, "Those bastards. They're crazy." Hahah.
But it's Myung that she's the biggest fan of. When I went to the meet and greet last year, I was like, "I have a message for you," and he was like, "What is it?" and I'm like, "My mom says she's in love with you." He got SO flustered, hahahah. 

Tell your mom I'm in love with her, see if she gets equally flustered that sounds amazing.

Edit: Wait, did you tell that to JMX before or after you took that picture with them? Because he looks deep in thought 

[ZirconBlue]

The thing is, I mean, yeah, often times, on live material, we get some bonus stuff like Live at Budokan versions of Hollow Years and Beyond This Life. But other than those select few songs where something is unique and different, why would you listen to a live version of a song when you could just listen to the studio version of it, which is more often than not better quality and isn't surrounded by applause?

Because:

Even if they play a song basically the same as the studio album, the different context and mix will often reveal parts within the music that I never noticed before, giving me a deeper appreciation of the studio version.

[Sketchy]

Same here. She's also into their crazy progressive stuff. Whenever Outcry instrumental section comes on, or something of the sort, she just says, "Those bastards. They're crazy." Hahah.
But it's Myung that she's the biggest fan of. When I went to the meet and greet last year, I was like, "I have a message for you," and he was like, "What is it?" and I'm like, "My mom says she's in love with you." He got SO flustered, hahahah. 

Wait, I wasn't aware I had a maternal half-brother. Where the hell did you appear from?

[TheGreatPretender]

Edit: Wait, did you tell that to JMX before or after you took that picture with them? Because he looks deep in thought 

After. It was photo session, then autographs, which was when I actually delivered him the message. But now he knows she's out there, haha.

Even if they play a song basically the same as the studio album, the different context and mix will often reveal parts within the music that I never noticed before, giving me a deeper appreciation of the studio version.

Which means, you'll inevitably go back to the studio version at some point anyway, right? Either way, if everything they played live was pretty much exactly as their album versions (albeit with slightly different sounding mixes for obvious reasons), if you're buying the live CD, then that's a lot of money to pay for songs that you pretty much already own. And even if these mixes reveal something different, that doesn't make them better. Obviously, the crowd noise and everything else usually means the concert songs don't sound quite as polished, so it's different from buying an actual album that you love, that got remixed. And hey, don't get me wrong, I will listen to all those songs again and again, the ones that don't have anything different in them at all, it's just that I will be doing that listening WHILE watching them play the actual music on the DVDs/Blu-Rays.

Wait, I wasn't aware I had a maternal half-brother. Where the hell did you appear from?

Err... Elaborate?

[cramx3]

A lot of bands usually play off of the energy of the crowd and you can hear it in the music. One of the reason IM live albums are so awesome IMO. That makes a difference to m compared to a studio album.

[TheGreatPretender]

A lot of bands usually play off of the energy of the crowd and you can hear it in the music. One of the reason IM live albums are so awesome IMO. That makes a difference to m compared to a studio album.

Yeah, but it's still infinitely better to SEE them do their thing, rather than just hearing it. Whenever I'm listening to live material without actually seeing the concert, I always feel... Blind, almost. Like, "oh man, John Pettrucci sounds like he's doing something interesting while he's playing that section, but I can't see it. This sucks!"

[cramx3]

A lot of bands usually play off of the energy of the crowd and you can hear it in the music. One of the reason IM live albums are so awesome IMO. That makes a difference to m compared to a studio album.

Yeah, but it's still infinitely better to SEE them do their thing, rather than just hearing it. Whenever I'm listening to live material without actually seeing the concert, I always feel... Blind, almost. Like, "oh man, John Pettrucci sounds like he's doing something interesting while he's playing that section, but I can't see it. This sucks!"

I agree. I voted for DVD over CD. I just think there is something worthy in a live vs. Studio regardless of which physical media is used.

[ZirconBlue]

Which means, you'll inevitably go back to the studio version at some point anyway, right?

You make it sound like I have to choose one or the other.  I do listen to the studio albums more than the live ones (mostly because I'm more of an "album" guy than a "song" guy), but I still bust out each of the various live releases on occasion.  Listening to various different versions give me new appreciation for the songs.

[MoraWintersoul]

Yeah, but it's still infinitely better to SEE them do their thing, rather than just hearing it. Whenever I'm listening to live material without actually seeing the concert, I always feel... Blind, almost. Like, "oh man, John Pettrucci sounds like he's doing something interesting while he's playing that section, but I can't see it. This sucks!"

[Elite]

But also on DVD you can't see everything. I hate that when I want to get a look at someone's playing the camera always focuses on something else and I've found that this happens a lot with Dream Theater's DVDs.

[MoraWintersoul]

But also on DVD you can't see everything. I hate that when I want to get a look at someone's playing the camera always focuses on something else and I've found that this happens a lot with Dream Theater's DVDs.

It's better than "just" a CD though

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I insist. If you want CD audio, just rip the music from the DVD and there you have it.

[TheGreatPretender]

You make it sound like I have to choose one or the other.  I do listen to the studio albums more than the live ones (mostly because I'm more of an "album" guy than a "song" guy), but I still bust out each of the various live releases on occasion.  Listening to various different versions give me new appreciation for the songs.

Well, no you don't have to choose one or the other. But my point is that you said listening to live versions makes you appreciate the studio versions more, because now you might hear some things that you didn't before. So the studio songs are still integral to the overall experience.
And you can still get that from a DVD, the little things that you may have missed. Except with a DVD, you also get the visuals to go along.

What I don't understand about the whole debate is that it's like saying, "Would you rather hear and be blind? Or be able to see and hear at the same time?" The DVD offers everything the CD does (in most cases, excluding LSFNY) plus the visual. So I don't see how people could say, "Nah, I'd rather NOT see the band perform, just hear them."

[Kotowboy]

The DVD offers everything the CD does (in most cases, excluding LSFNY) plus the visual. So I don't see how people could say, "Nah, I'd rather NOT see the band perform, just hear them."

[ZirconBlue]

I can't watch DVD's in my car.

[TheGreatPretender]

I can't watch DVD's in my car.

You can watch DVDs at home and listen to the studio albums in the car.

[robwebster]

So I don't see how people could say, "Nah, I'd rather NOT see the band perform, just hear them."

Same reason I'd rather read an interview than watch a video one - I'd usually rather leave my other senses free to do other things. It's nice to have the option, and that's why if I'm only buying one or the other it tends to be the DVD, but I can plop on the CD and play a video game, read a book, drive a car, write a story. Not saying you can't do that with a DVD, but it's a distraction. Not to mention, the CD's more versatile. You need a DVD player to put on a DVD - whether that's in your laptop, or attached to your television, or whatever. You need to take a screen out of use to put it on. CD doesn't carry nearly as much baggage.

Sometimes I like to see the band perform, but it's maybe a third of the appeal maximum. I don't need to see them play the instruments any more than I need to see David Mitchell's lips move when I'm listening to his radio show. It's a nice luxury to have, but most of the time it's an inconvenience. I get a lot more use out of CDs than DVDs, out of podcasts than films - you name it.

With respect, the line I've quoted up there isn't a million miles from saying, 'I don't how people can say "Nah, I'd rather NOT see the music video, just listen to the song."' Which is patently nonsense, of course you can enjoy a song without the video, they're completely separate media. Same goes for a live performance.

Edited 21:35 BST - minor edit for clarity!

[ZirconBlue]

I can't watch DVD's in my car.

You can watch DVDs at home and listen to the studio albums in the car.

Better yet, I can watch DVDs at home and listen to the studio AND LIVE albums in the car.


Also, this:

Same reason I'd rather read an interview than watch a video one - I'd usually rather leave my other senses free to do other things. It's nice to have the option, and that's why if I'm only buying one or the other it tends to be the DVD, but I can plop on the CD and play a video game, read a book, drive a car, write a story. Not saying you can't do that with a DVD, but it's a distraction. Not to mention, the CD's more versatile. You need a DVD player to put on a DVD - whether that's in your laptop, or attached to your television, or whatever. You need to take a screen out of use to put it on. CD doesn't carry nearly as much baggage.

Sometimes I like to see the band perform, but it's maybe a third of the appeal maximum. I don't need to see them play the instruments any more than I need to see David Mitchell's lips move when I'm listening to his radio show. It's a nice luxury to have, but most of the time it's an inconvenience. I get a lot more use out of CDs than DVDs, out of podcasts than films - you name it.

[Lowdz]

I used to love live albums when I was younger. Some of my top 50 would be live albums (Alive 2, Strangers In The Night, If You Want Blood, Unleashed In The East, We Want Moore and many many more).
In recent years I've seriously gone off them. I'll buy DT's for completist's sake but will skip everyone else's. I wil buy the dvds though and gain alot more enjoyment from watching and listening than just watching alone.
I'm more likely to watch the dvd than listen to the live album.

[TheGreatPretender]

Same reason I'd rather read an interview than watch a video one - I'd usually rather leave my other senses free to do other things.

I'd always rather watch an interview. Heck, by that logic, it should be the opposite for you. I mean, you can listen to an interview and do other things. But reading an interview, at most the only other thing you could do is listen to music while you do so, and even then your attention is on the writing and the music just kind of fills the background noise.

I don't need to see them play the instruments any more than I need to see David Mitchell's lips move when I'm listening to his radio show. It's a nice luxury to have, but most of the time it's an inconvenience. I get a lot more use out of CDs than DVDs, out of podcasts than films - you name it.

Okay, now you COMPLETELY lost me. First of all, watching Dream Theater (of all bands) do their thing on stage is nothing short of amazing. Look at The Score version of Octavarium. That Continuum intro, half the awesomeness of it is seeing JR's face when he's performing it, that look of bliss and complete joy. Or Live Scenes From New York, which, with all its visual aids almost comes off like a musical. Not quite, but it's still incredibly spectacular to see.
And heck, any kind of a crazy instrumental breakdown by the band, such as the Instrumedley, it's just awesome to watch them in all their dexterity.

And umm... You'd rather listen to a podcast than watch a film? That just makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.


Also, yes, CDs are more versatile. But again, that's where studio albums come in. If you have the studio album, I don't see the point of buying a whole CD of songs that you already own, just sounding slightly different from being in a live setting.

[robwebster]

Same reason I'd rather read an interview than watch a video one - I'd usually rather leave my other senses free to do other things.

I'd always rather watch an interview. Heck, by that logic, it should be the opposite for you. I mean, you can listen to an interview and do other things. But reading an interview, at most the only other thing you could do is listen to music while you do so, and even then your attention is on the writing and the music just kind of fills the background noise.

Well, when I'm browsing the internet, I'm often listening to music, podcasts, whatever. "Here's a link to a great interview." "Oh, great!" "It's a video!" "Oh. Great."

I have to stop listening to my music, I have to digest the interview at speaking pace rather than reading pace (speaking is a lot slower), if I leave the room for a few seconds I might lose my place - video interviews are inconvenient. Especially since, as they're usually put together by video experts rather than audio experts, there are a lot more terrible-sounding audio interviews than video interviews (though that's a production issue rather than intrinsic to the medium), and because they've been produced for mixed-media lots of them flash questions up on screen so you lose context if you just listen... it can be a much bigger chore.

I don't need to see them play the instruments any more than I need to see David Mitchell's lips move when I'm listening to his radio show. It's a nice luxury to have, but most of the time it's an inconvenience. I get a lot more use out of CDs than DVDs, out of podcasts than films - you name it.

Okay, now you COMPLETELY lost me. First of all, watching Dream Theater (of all bands) do their thing on stage is nothing short of amazing. Look at The Score version of Octavarium. That Continuum intro, half the awesomeness of it is seeing JR's face when he's performing it, that look of bliss and complete joy. Or Live Scenes From New York, which, with all its visual aids almost comes off like a musical. Not quite, but it's still incredibly spectacular to see.
And heck, any kind of a crazy instrumental breakdown by the band, such as the Instrumedley, it's just awesome to watch them in all their dexterity.

(...)

Also, yes, CDs are more versatile. But again, that's where studio albums come in. If you have the studio album, I don't see the point of buying a whole CD of songs that you already own, just sounding slightly different from being in a live setting.

I'm not entirely sure who you're trying to convince here - I've said several times this thread if it's one or the other I always buy the DVD, including once within the post you're quoting. They're very good. I have noticed that. q:

But the pictures are a tiny part of the appeal of live music. The music is almost all of it. Shut your eyes and you can still get swept away in the energy, the technicality, the sheer emotion. Shut your ears and you're watching five middle aged men twiddling their fingers.

And WRT why you'd listen to songs you already own, I'll reiterate from a page or so back --

I'll go through fairly frequent phrases when I'm properly craving live music. I like the slightly raw, rugged quality, and particularly the energy of a live performance. The songs on One Cold Winter's Night by Kamelot, for instance, tend to outstrip the studio versions by miles. Even when they're abridged! March of Mephisto's gorgeous.

Because there's a reason some songs only click when you see them live. A studio recording can often be sterile, every note recorded umpteen times, layered, processed into technical perfection. Pull Me Under's a good example - the opening notes barely sound like a real guitar, to me. Watch Pull Me Under at Download 2009, it's the difference between the intro tape and the moment the drums kick in.  Sometimes you don't want the clean, processed version - the jagged crunch of an electric guitar doesn't always grip your soul on a studio album like it does in a live arena. Peruvian Skies is another one that a live environment works wonders on. The soulful bits soar higher, the heavy bits are crunchier... you're clearly not getting the same things out of live music that I am, and that's fine. But it's not even a question for me - live music's superb, pictures or no, and because the music's what matters, the most convenient way to digest it will always be my personal favourite.

And umm... You'd rather listen to a podcast than watch a film? That just makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

I said I get more use out of a podcast. I can listen to twelve hour-long podcasts in a day - have them on the go while I'm showering, browsing the web, working, driving, making dinner, travelling. I'll watch maybe one film every two months, when I've got two hours spare, and want to spend them watching a single story from start to finish. They're inconvenient. It's a lot easier to digest audio media because they don't demand your full sensory attention.

But I do like them more, yes!

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, when I'm browsing the internet, I'm often listening to music, podcasts, whatever. "Here's a link to a great interview." "Oh, great!" "It's a video!" "Oh. Great."

I have to stop listening to my music, I have to digest the interview at speaking pace rather than reading pace (speaking is a lot slower), if I leave the room for a few seconds I might lose my place - video interviews are inconvenient. Especially since, as they're usually put together by video experts rather than audio experts, there are a lot more terrible-sounding audio interviews than video interviews (though that's a production issue rather than intrinsic to the medium), and because they've been produced for mixed-media lots of them flash questions up on screen so you lose context if you just listen... it can be a much bigger chore.

Or, you can put the video interview on, shut off your music for a little bit, and just listen to said interview while you keep browsing the web in other tabs. You're calling it an inconvenience like it's forcing you to change your whole lifestyle around.

Because there's a reason some songs only click when you see them live. A studio recording can often be sterile, every note recorded umpteen times, layered, processed into technical perfection. Pull Me Under's a good example - the opening notes barely sound like a real guitar, to me. Watch Pull Me Under at Download 2009, it's the difference between the intro tape and the moment the drums kick in.  Sometimes you don't want the clean, processed version - the jagged crunch of an electric guitar doesn't always grip your soul on a studio album like it does in a live arena. Peruvian Skies is another one that a live environment works wonders on. The soulful bits soar higher, the heavy bits are crunchier... you're clearly not getting the same things out of live music that I am, and that's fine. But it's not even a question for me - live music's superb, pictures or no, and because the music's what matters, the most convenient way to digest it will always be my personal favourite.

Well, if you ask me, more often than not, the sound quality suffers a bit in live performances. I mean, it always depends on the acoustics of the venue and stuff like that. In arena type venues, for example, they're usually filled with horrible amount of reverb, a lot of which probably happens naturally just from the sound echoing through the outdoors.
It doesn't compare to the crispness of a studio recording. Even Pull Me Under, I'll always much rather prefer the studio version.

I said I get more use out of a podcast. I can listen to twelve hour-long podcasts in a day - have them on the go while I'm showering, browsing the web, working, driving, making dinner, travelling. I'll watch maybe one film every two months, when I've got two hours spare, and want to spend them watching a single story from start to finish. They're inconvenient. It's a lot easier to digest audio media because they don't demand your full sensory attention.

But I do like them more, yes!

Okay, well, with all due respect, if you find it such an extreme inconvenience to sit down and watch a movie or a concert DVD of your favorite band, then I think you really need to slow down and 'smell the roses' as the expression goes.

It's seriously a big problem in society these days, everyone's always in too much of a hurry to get somewhere. You need to Take The Time to immerse yourself in something, whether it's a good movie, or a Dream Theater concert.

[E.S.]

I rarely listen to live CD's at all. Without that visual element I pick the actual album instead. So yes, DVD is my choice.

[Jaffa]

You're calling it an inconvenience like it's forcing you to change your whole lifestyle around.

Meanwhile, you're acting like not watching concert videos all that often is some sort of social affliction.   

[TheGreatPretender]

Meanwhile, you're acting like not watching concert videos all that often is some sort of social affliction.   

No, I just don't see the point of paying money for music recorded at a concert, unless you're going to have a visual to go with that music, unless it's something completely new, like their cover series. And even then, IF it's available in video format, then that's the way to go.

[Jaffa]

If that's your opinion that's fine.  I just found the last paragraph of your last post, where you turned rob's preference for live CDs into a tangent about how society is in too much of a hurry these days, a bit laughable.  No disrespect intended. 

[TheGreatPretender]

If that's your opinion that's fine.  I just found the last paragraph of your last post, where you turned rob's preference for live CDs into a tangent about how society is in too much of a hurry these days, a bit laughable.  No disrespect intended.

Well, that had more to do with the fact that he said podcasts are more useful to him because he doesn't have time to sit down and watch a movie. If you don't have two hours at least every week to sit down and relax and not have to multitask a thousand things at once, I think you (by you, I mean any given person) need to slow down and relax a little bit. All I ever see is people in a constant hurry to get somewhere, and it's a very good reflection on our (at least North American) society.

[iamtheeviltwin]

If that's your opinion that's fine.  I just found the last paragraph of your last post, where you turned rob's preference for live CDs into a tangent about how society is in too much of a hurry these days, a bit laughable.  No disrespect intended.

Well, that had more to do with the fact that he said podcasts are more useful to him because he doesn't have time to sit down and watch a movie. If you don't have two hours at least every week to sit down and relax and not have to multitask a thousand things at once, I think you (by you, I mean any given person) need to slow down and relax a little bit. All I ever see is people in a constant hurry to get somewhere, and it's a very good reflection on our (at least North American) society.

There are many other ways to "relax" other than drowning your mind in movies or televition (reading, gaming, exercise, socializing, fishing, etc.).  Rob was speaking about his day and I didn't get the feeling he didn't "have time" to sit down and watch a movie.  He just chose other activities that did not involve plopping in front of the small screen.

I am in agreement with Rob on this basic point.  Pure audio programs are far more useful to me in my day to day life than a video program.  I usually work from 8-10 hours a day and I cannot dedicate myself to a video program during that time.  Listening to podcasts, audiobooks, and music make my day go faster, teach me many things, and generally entertain me while hammering out code or chasing ghosts in the machine.  Often when I get home from work the last thing I want to do is sit on my large ass in front of a screen.  Even if I am just puttering around the house I can run my radio, watching a DVD of a concert is low on that priority list.

Personally I voted for CD in the poll, because of value.  I will get far more entertainment value from a CD of a concert which I will listen to in both a dedicated manner multiple times and then chop the bits I like best into my music rotation.  Much better ROI, than a concert DVD that I will make sure I watch once and then most likely never return to again.  (and yes I could just buy the DVD and burn it down, but i rarely see the value in that when I just want the CD which is usually cheaper anyway).