Author Topic: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is  (Read 4599 times)

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Offline snapple

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Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« on: June 15, 2012, 08:43:54 AM »
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 08:52:35 AM »
It is wrong, but not the way you are thinking.

It is disingenuous to show one solitary debt, and not show assets or income, for each person.
The comic strips intent is to try to show that the beggar is in a better financial position.  Yet he has no income, no food, no shelter, no health insurance, etc.

A better question, if you think the intent of the comic is correct....would YOU much rather be the beggar?

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Offline snapple

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 08:55:18 AM »
It is wrong, but not the way you are thinking.

It is disingenuous to show one solitary debt, and not show assets or income, for each person.
The comic strips intent is to try to show that the beggar is in a better financial position.  Yet he has no income, no food, no shelter, no health insurance, etc.

A better question, if you think the intent of the comic is correct....would YOU much rather be the beggar?

that was my point.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 09:05:35 AM »
It is wrong, but not the way you are thinking.

It is disingenuous to show one solitary debt, and not show assets or income, for each person.
The comic strips intent is to try to show that the beggar is in a better financial position.  Yet he has no income, no food, no shelter, no health insurance, etc.

A better question, if you think the intent of the comic is correct....would YOU much rather be the beggar?

that was my point.


Ah good....I thought you might have been agreeing with the implied statement of the comic, showing how "wrong" it is that the beggar has a higher net worth than everybody else.
:)
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 09:11:36 AM »
though I agree with the misconception, I still found the perspective interesting.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 09:12:37 AM »
It'd be interesting to measure the degree of stress and happiness of both.  The beggar has the harder life, by far, but he's already at the bottom, and people are pretty adaptable.  He's got his routine and makes enough money to eek out a modest living, or at least keep himself in Colt 45.  Those other guys are working their asses off trying to stay one step ahead of the beggar.  At the moment they're lucky to have a job, and there's a very good chance they're working at a loss right now.  I've got enough friends and family that I'm not likely to end up living in a box under a bridge, but if I didn't, I'd probably be pretty horrified about how bad things could get. 
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 09:21:04 AM »
It'd be interesting to measure the degree of stress and happiness of both.  The beggar has the harder life, by far, but he's already at the bottom, and people are pretty adaptable.  He's got his routine and makes enough money to eek out a modest living, or at least keep himself in Colt 45.  Those other guys are working their asses off trying to stay one step ahead of the beggar.  At the moment they're lucky to have a job, and there's a very good chance they're working at a loss right now.  I've got enough friends and family that I'm not likely to end up living in a box under a bridge, but if I didn't, I'd probably be pretty horrified about how bad things could get.

The stress and happiness factor of people can certainly vary.  The successful business man with all the material goodies can be very unhappy and stressed.  The "free spirit" guy, who works sporadically, making just enough to sustain himself can be stress free and happy.
But I would caution thinking that free-spirit guy is the same as beggar guy.  I have seen documentaries about the homeless, and the extreme stress, sadness, depression, and poor health they experience.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 09:34:20 AM »
The problem I saw was that the student has more than double the debt of everyone else combined... I thought this was an outrageous tution cost comic strip.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 10:42:51 AM »
the majority of homeless that I have gotten to know have no interest in living "normal."
I think most of it is the sad reality that they have given up on their dreams or are too addicted to the things that keep them down.
however, I think some it is just the simplicity of the lifestyle (especially when you live in warm and dry climates)

Offline Chino

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 12:30:59 PM »
the majority of homeless that I have gotten to know have no interest in living "normal."
I think most of it is the sad reality that they have given up on their dreams or are too addicted to the things that keep them down.
however, I think some it is just the simplicity of the lifestyle (especially when you live in warm and dry climates)

How's does one go about getting out of homelessness (not sure if that's a word)? If you've been on the streets for just 2 or 3 years, I see no getting out of it.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 12:39:50 PM »
I suspect it's going to require a significant support network of some sort, such as a halfway house.  I suspect there are plenty of charitable options available.  I doubt it'd really be possible to do on your own.  You'd also need to still have all your marbles.

My guess would be that the rules established by such groups are such that most people would wash out.  Yesh referred to the simplicity of the lifestyle.  I'll bet that's a major obstacle when Pastor Bob is requiring a curfew, responsible behavior and probably a healthy dose of Jebus for a couple of months while you get back on your feet. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 12:47:41 PM »
It'd be interesting to measure the degree of stress and happiness of both.  The beggar has the harder life, by far, but he's already at the bottom, and people are pretty adaptable.

I'm not so sure it always works at the extremes (and eric: one reason the homeless suffer more mental disorders is because they are homeless becuase they have a mental disorder), though I know there's more than one bum out there who loves his life. However, the general idea that poorer people can be happier is something I fully agree with, and for basically the reasons you give.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 01:01:27 PM »
since the homeless don't have any debt and have much lower standards than the "normal," getting out isn't quite the task as one might think.  the ones I've seen get out simply needed to get off alcohol, get a basic job (holding a sign, etc) and they easily had enough for a cheap hotel room and food for the day.  From there, they could shower and get healthy, eventually get a better job and then eventually wind up in massive debt like the rest of us  :biggrin:

Offline El Barto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 01:09:09 PM »
I'm guessing you have a fair amount of experience with the homeless; charitable guy and all. 

Is it that easy to get a simple job, even holding a sign?  All the sign twirlers I see look halfway clean-cut.  Plus, because of the heat down here, it's actually a pretty well paying job (certainly more than call center work).  I'm having a hard time figuring out what kind of work a homeless guy living in a no-tell motel could scrounge up. 

You've also got the issue that a good street corner can earn you more than the sign twirler job.  Add a dog or a missing limb and you'll do quite well.  Panhandling will get you a room at the sleazy motel just as easily. 
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 01:17:23 PM »
there is no question that having someone to give you a shot is almost required.
personally, I look for homeless people that appear to be genuinely trying.
one couple recently did a bunch of mechanic work on my car and was able to get enough to spend those nights in a hotel.  it saved me money on a regular mechanic and helped him "earn" money for himself and wife.
the same person who panhandles could instead sell or offer services (which you see more and more of this).  like newspapers on the corner, flowers, etc.
I actually wouldn't have a problem with panhandling if it was temporary and if it was to be used for food/lodging. 
The difference is that I need $400/day to cover all my expenses, whereas they need about $50/day.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 06:57:58 AM »
I have found that owing money is a way of life here in the U.S, something no one seems to find a burden or a result of wrong choices, it's just something that is integrated into everyone's life. From my cultural background I would definitely be happier as the beggar in that picture and go to sleep on the street knowing that I don't owe anybody shit than go about my day in my nice car and sweeping my fingers across my iPhone pretending that I am normal just cause everyone else is doing it. Where I come from an item that you can't afford is an item you can't have, story ends here bitch, you work to save money to buy it, not to repay the money you had to borrow to get it. The idea of living with a debt over your head is a heavy burden on the conscience there, the thought of dying before repaying a debt is nightmare on it's own.
But now I'm here and I realize that is almost impossible to avoid swimming with that tide and I have a car loan but I looked at that picture and envied the beggar.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Chino

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 07:09:57 AM »
I have found that owing money is a way of life here in the U.S, something no one seems to find a burden or a result of wrong choices, it's just something that is integrated into everyone's life. From my cultural background I would definitely be happier as the beggar in that picture and go to sleep on the street knowing that I don't owe anybody shit than go about my day in my nice car and sweeping my fingers across my iPhone pretending that I am normal just cause everyone else is doing it. Where I come from an item that you can't afford is an item you can't have, story ends here bitch, you work to save money to buy it, not to repay the money you had to borrow to get it. The idea of living with a debt over your head is a heavy burden on the conscience there, the thought of dying before repaying a debt is nightmare on it's own.
But now I'm here and I realize that is almost impossible to avoid swimming with that tide and I have a car loan but I looked at that picture and envied the beggar.

I'd much rather have cool shit and be in manageable debt versus being on the street with no debt.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 07:15:26 AM »
My wife said the same thing and I'm not attacking that way of thinking, I just can't subscribe to it easily.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline tofee35

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 05:38:04 AM »

According to that picture, the little kid, should be the richest (if they labelled her). She's got to make at least $5.00/wk in allowances and I doubt she's got too much debt.

The college loan kid is spot on. I'm lucky enough to not have school loans that big, but I definitely know people who paid their own way through school and now have that much debt.

Offline Chino

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2012, 06:42:17 AM »

According to that picture, the little kid, should be the richest (if they labelled her). She's got to make at least $5.00/wk in allowances and I doubt she's got too much debt.

The college loan kid is spot on. I'm lucky enough to not have school loans that big, but I definitely know people who paid their own way through school and now have that much debt.

I'd be thrilled with $66K of debt. I'm looking at closer to $100k by the time I'm out. Not to knock them, but I have 3 friends with $200k+ of debt from various art schools... One's in ceramics, the other in photography, and the third in graphic design without these of computers... All seems pretty foolish to me.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2012, 09:21:42 AM »
At the core, I agree with progmetty.  debt makes one a slave to another.
but I also like Chino's use of the term "manageable."
debt is like anything else:  it is a balance.


Offline Scheavo

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 04:50:16 PM »

According to that picture, the little kid, should be the richest (if they labelled her). She's got to make at least $5.00/wk in allowances and I doubt she's got too much debt.

The college loan kid is spot on. I'm lucky enough to not have school loans that big, but I definitely know people who paid their own way through school and now have that much debt.

I'd be thrilled with $66K of debt. I'm looking at closer to $100k by the time I'm out. Not to knock them, but I have 3 friends with $200k+ of debt from various art schools... One's in ceramics, the other in photography, and the third in graphic design without these of computers... All seems pretty foolish to me.

Nothing personal against your friends, but since they aren't my friends, I'm gonna have to knock them a little.

200k+ for art? I'm sorry, but that's a horrible, horrible fucking loan to make. They'll be lucky to make that much money in 15 years, let alone have enough after to pay off those loans. No lender should be giving out like that, and no person should be taking out a $200k+ for art. Hell, taking out a 5k loan for an art school is asking for years of debt. Even without loans, you're going to have a hard as fuck time paying your bills, add in loans on $200k+ worth of loans, and you're screwed, for life.

I say this as someone basically trying to do work in the field, having only 16k in debt, living at home, and still basically having no fucking money. If I was 15x in debt, I think I'd just go ahead and go squat in some remote as fuck location, and hope my farming and hunting skills can feed me.


Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 10:16:32 PM »
The US post-secondary system is fucking ridiculous. 
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Offline Chino

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2012, 11:22:38 PM »

According to that picture, the little kid, should be the richest (if they labelled her). She's got to make at least $5.00/wk in allowances and I doubt she's got too much debt.

The college loan kid is spot on. I'm lucky enough to not have school loans that big, but I definitely know people who paid their own way through school and now have that much debt.

I'd be thrilled with $66K of debt. I'm looking at closer to $100k by the time I'm out. Not to knock them, but I have 3 friends with $200k+ of debt from various art schools... One's in ceramics, the other in photography, and the third in graphic design without these of computers... All seems pretty foolish to me.

Nothing personal against your friends, but since they aren't my friends, I'm gonna have to knock them a little.

200k+ for art? I'm sorry, but that's a horrible, horrible fucking loan to make. They'll be lucky to make that much money in 15 years, let alone have enough after to pay off those loans. No lender should be giving out like that, and no person should be taking out a $200k+ for art. Hell, taking out a 5k loan for an art school is asking for years of debt. Even without loans, you're going to have a hard as fuck time paying your bills, add in loans on $200k+ worth of loans, and you're screwed, for life.

I say this as someone basically trying to do work in the field, having only 16k in debt, living at home, and still basically having no fucking money. If I was 15x in debt, I think I'd just go ahead and go squat in some remote as fuck location, and hope my farming and hunting skills can feed me.

I'm not disagreeing with you  :lol I think they are retarded for it. I think art comes from within/those who have the gift. Four years at $50k won't get you anywhere.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2012, 11:53:54 AM »
I'm looking at about $20k in loans for general computer science, which I'm okay with. Thank god for good financial aid.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2012, 12:54:46 PM »

According to that picture, the little kid, should be the richest (if they labelled her). She's got to make at least $5.00/wk in allowances and I doubt she's got too much debt.

The college loan kid is spot on. I'm lucky enough to not have school loans that big, but I definitely know people who paid their own way through school and now have that much debt.

I'd be thrilled with $66K of debt. I'm looking at closer to $100k by the time I'm out. Not to knock them, but I have 3 friends with $200k+ of debt from various art schools... One's in ceramics, the other in photography, and the third in graphic design without these of computers... All seems pretty foolish to me.

Nothing personal against your friends, but since they aren't my friends, I'm gonna have to knock them a little.

200k+ for art? I'm sorry, but that's a horrible, horrible fucking loan to make. They'll be lucky to make that much money in 15 years, let alone have enough after to pay off those loans. No lender should be giving out like that, and no person should be taking out a $200k+ for art. Hell, taking out a 5k loan for an art school is asking for years of debt. Even without loans, you're going to have a hard as fuck time paying your bills, add in loans on $200k+ worth of loans, and you're screwed, for life.

I say this as someone basically trying to do work in the field, having only 16k in debt, living at home, and still basically having no fucking money. If I was 15x in debt, I think I'd just go ahead and go squat in some remote as fuck location, and hope my farming and hunting skills can feed me.

I'm not disagreeing with you  :lol I think they are retarded for it. I think art comes from within/those who have the gift. Four years at $50k won't get you anywhere.

Ya, I was gonna say, if you are a good enough artist and can afford 200k in debt... you probably wouldn't need to go to art school in the first place.

Offline snapple

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2012, 03:29:00 PM »
200k in debt for art has absolutely got me floored. Mrs. snapple and I have figured out a balance with work/school so we don't have to take out a loan. She is going to graduate this June with her bachelors in 4 years, with 0 debt.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 11:12:14 AM »
College is way overpriced and way overvalued in this country.







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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 11:14:53 AM »
200k in debt for art has absolutely got me floored. Mrs. snapple and I have figured out a balance with work/school so we don't have to take out a loan. She is going to graduate this June with her bachelors in 4 years, with 0 debt.

My wife and I accomplished the same.  She quit working full time and went to school full time while working part time.

It took her 5 years to finish but she got her Bachelor's Degree of Liberal Arts (English Major) and we incurred $0.00 in debt.  And she didn't got a shit school either.  Granted, she didn't go to Harvard or BU, but still.....

Offline Implode

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 11:39:06 AM »
College is way overpriced and way overvalued in this country.

Overpriced? Sure. Overvalued? No way.

Offline the Catfishman

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2012, 01:54:52 PM »
yeah, the price of education seems ridiculous in the US. I finished my masters with 0 euro dept and will start my PhD in September which is considered a job and which comes with decent enough salary (for starters)... I can't even imagine the debt I would be in if I would have followed the same tract in the US.
To me it seems like 'the american dream' of equal opportunity for everyone doesn't really seem applicable to the US educational system. Poor people don't have access to the same level of education as rich people.



Offline snapple

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 01:56:55 PM »
yeah, the price of education seems ridiculous in the US. I finished my masters with 0 euro dept and will start my PhD in September which is considered a job and which comes with decent enough salary (for starters)... I can't even imagine the debt I would be in if I would have followed the same tract in the US.
To me it seems like 'the american dream' of equal opportunity for everyone doesn't really seem applicable to the US educational system. Poor people don't have access to the same level of education as rich people.

well, if you're poor enough, you can get decent scholarships and what not. It's not impossible, but the odds are definitely not in their favor.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 02:19:47 PM »
College is way overpriced and way overvalued in this country.

Overpriced? Sure. Overvalued? No way.

It's way overvalued. Do you know how many morons who know nothing have college degrees? It's shocking. Getting a college education is a matter of paying your dues, and showing up to class. If you do that, you'll be able to get a degree. Maybe not a degree in physics or math, but you can sure as hell find yourself a degree, and the college will make sure you can find that degree, so they can get their tuition.

Most people who go to a University would be just as well suited going to a technical school, or having some sort of national service like Americorps be mandatory, like in Europe. Most people get their degree, even in a relevant field, and have to be trained by their employers anyways.

If you wanna be a engineer or a scientist, ya, go get a degree at a University. Everything else should be covered in either High School (talk about a failing fucking system) or by community colleges.

Our society needs to stop pushing young kids into college. It needs to make sure the people going to a university, are the kind of people who can actually benefit from it, will actually learn something. I'm sure you know a couple of people who went to the school they went to because it was a good party school. There's too many people who have no desire to actually be in a university, they're simply doing it because they're told they have to, they have to to get a job (and because so many do, in a sense, they do have to).

Offline Riceball

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 06:14:04 PM »
I haven't read the rest of the thread in great detail, but I agree with Scheavo here. University/college education is being commoditised to the point that to "stand out" now you have to do an honours degree or higher. I don't know this for sure, only being in my early 20s, but I dare say even 10 years ago having a bachelors degree was 'enough' to get you into a good skilled occupation - so a Bachelor of Commerce could get you working as an analyst at a bank or something. Now, every dick, dick and dick has a BoC, so to get into a skilled occupation like banking you need to get an honours degree.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Let's talk about how wrong this picture is
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 08:26:33 PM »
So college itself isn't overvalued, we've just cheapened it by the way we've come to operate it. I'm a recent college graduate myself and I don't believe my time there was for naught. Just the opposite, as my friends who are working with a high school degree alone show well enough.

What matters is the degree you get and whether or not you're going to graduate school.
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