Author Topic: One US soldier suicide per day  (Read 5921 times)

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2012, 02:32:58 PM »
US soldiers kill way more than one person per day so I consider this a nice first step toward justice.

Not even sure what to say.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2012, 03:06:20 PM »
US soldiers kill way more than one person per day so I consider this a nice first step toward justice.

Not even sure what to say.
Eh, since this is an all volunteer army I'm no too terribly troubled by his remark.  Although, I'd certainly prefer to see the responsibility dumped on the assholes that got them into the war.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2012, 03:22:03 PM »
A volunteer army whose volunteers usually don't really have anywhere else to go.
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Offline ohgar

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2012, 03:45:36 PM »
Desperation does not justify murder, nor does ignorance.
Iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli vendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2012, 03:47:35 PM »
I'm not saying that I like war or the military either, but some of these guys enlist in the army because they have no future: no college prospects, no job, no way out sorta thing. I'm not justifying their actions in the army, just their joining the army in the first place.
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Offline ohgar

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2012, 03:49:08 PM »
Yeah and a lot of suicide bombers grew up in much worse environments and became "terrorists" out of desperation, but that doesn't justify their actions nor does it clear them of guilt.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2012, 03:59:18 PM »
Desperation does not justify murder, nor does ignorance.

But to suggest that it's a good thing that a group of people who lead incredibly difficult lives and who are willing to sacrifice themselves for your safety (assuming, of course, that you live in the US, which is the impression I've gotten from your posts) is committing suicide more is just awful. It's gross; it is by far the worst sentence I've read on DTF. You are a bad person.

It's one thing to suggest that war is immoral and that we shouldn't have an army. A lot of people are of that mind. But this leaves a really awful taste in my mouth.

Offline Sigz

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2012, 04:02:41 PM »
Desperation does not justify murder, nor does ignorance.

Even if I agreed that them dying is 'justice', you're assuming that every soldier who commits suicide has actually committed murder or some equally terrible action, which is silly.
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Offline ohgar

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2012, 04:22:03 PM »
Desperation does not justify murder, nor does ignorance.

But to suggest that it's a good thing that a group of people who lead incredibly difficult lives and who are willing to sacrifice themselves for your safety

That's where you are mistaken. The vast majority of soldiers (excluding the Coast Guard and National Guard) are not sacrificing themselves for my safety, but rather for the imperialistic ambitions of a corrupt and evil nation. The Nuremberg trials established that "everyone is responsible for his own actions."
Iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli vendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2012, 05:46:58 PM »
The Nuremberg trials established that "everyone is responsible for his own actions."

And they also said that anyone accused of a War crime has right to a fair trial based on facts and law. Not sure you go from this to saying that psychological problems and eventual suicide of the accused is justice.

Offline ddtonfire

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2012, 09:28:28 PM »
US soldiers kill way more than one person per day so I consider this a nice first step toward justice.

Hey man, I'm proud we're on a forum where we're free to express our opinions, but this is just tasteless and crass.

Offline ohgar

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2012, 04:59:42 AM »
The Nuremberg trials established that "everyone is responsible for his own actions."

And they also said that anyone accused of a War crime has right to a fair trial based on facts and law. Not sure you go from this to saying that psychological problems and eventual suicide of the accused is justice.

No, justice--proportional justice--would be if U.S. soldiers were dragged around the world to various secret military prisons and given no fair trial whatsoever before they were executed by a military tribunal or, in the event that they were discovered to be innocent, dropped off in the middle of the night on a highway in Eastern Europe with the clothes on their back, no money and no ride home. This is just something I don't exactly shed a tear about.
Iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli vendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2012, 05:55:02 AM »
That's one of the most heartless things I've ever heard.
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Offline ohgar

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2012, 06:07:12 AM »
Yeah well then tell U.S. soldiers to stop doing it to people.
Iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli vendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses.

Offline the Catfishman

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2012, 07:44:50 AM »
I have to agree with Oghar here, the US has spend trillions of dollars on fighting nonsense obviously imperialistic wars in the last 20 (30? 40?)  years, killing thousands of civilians in the process.

Of course it's not good news but do you really feel it's appropriate to pay much attention or shock to the news that US soldiers commit suicide more often than the average population?

Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2012, 07:55:48 AM »
No, justice--proportional justice--would be if U.S. soldiers were dragged around the world to various secret military prisons and given no fair trial whatsoever before they were executed by a military tribunal or, in the event that they were discovered to be innocent, dropped off in the middle of the night on a highway in Eastern Europe with the clothes on their back, no money and no ride home. This is just something I don't exactly shed a tear about.
This is a much more reasonable stance than saying they should all kill themselves.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2012, 11:44:37 AM »
The Nuremberg trials established that "everyone is responsible for his own actions."

And they also said that anyone accused of a War crime has right to a fair trial based on facts and law. Not sure you go from this to saying that psychological problems and eventual suicide of the accused is justice.

No, justice--proportional justice--would be if U.S. soldiers were dragged around the world to various secret military prisons and given no fair trial whatsoever before they were executed by a military tribunal or, in the event that they were discovered to be innocent, dropped off in the middle of the night on a highway in Eastern Europe with the clothes on their back, no money and no ride home. This is just something I don't exactly shed a tear about.

So, your view of justice is an eye for an eye then?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »
No, justice--proportional justice--would be if U.S. soldiers were dragged around the world to various secret military prisons and given no fair trial whatsoever before they were executed by a military tribunal or, in the event that they were discovered to be innocent, dropped off in the middle of the night on a highway in Eastern Europe with the clothes on their back, no money and no ride home. This is just something I don't exactly shed a tear about.
This is a much more reasonable stance than saying they should all kill themselves.

Not by much. Especially when we're considering people who are found to be innocent.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2012, 04:33:51 PM »
Nah, innocence wouldn't really be applicable to either side.  When we round somebody up, they're guilty by association.  If you're around to be caught, then you're an enemy combatant*.  From their perspective of the US military, the same rule would apply, but actually have some legitimacy.  Every single military person over there would be an enemy combatant.  I don't share Ohgar's belief that it's cool when soldiers off themselves, or constitutes some karmic justice, as I don't see any direct correlation between service and committing atrocities.  I certainly do see his point of view that they shouldn't be held less accountable than those they're fighting, though. 


*I believe the current ROE regarding drone strikes is that any male of adult age is considered a combatant and fair game.  The only civilian casualties that count when something get's Mavericked is females and children. 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2012, 04:52:36 PM »
US soldiers kill way more than one person per day so I consider this a nice first step toward justice.

Hey man, I'm proud we're on a forum where we're free to express our opinions, but this is just tasteless and crass.

This.  If you want to argue against the goals or tactics of the U.S. military, have at it.  But celebrating the death anyone and essentially coming out in favor of more of the same is not cool and not something I am going to allow here.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2012, 03:23:29 PM »
Just saw a program about this on CNN, they said most of the suicides have never seen combat. So yes, cheering their suicide does make you a monster.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2012, 03:39:17 PM »
Just saw a program about this on CNN, they said most of the suicides have never seen combat. So yes, cheering their suicide does make you a monster.
To be fair, I'm not sure that makes them any less culpable.  The support roles are just as important to a combat operation as the combat roles.  A mechanic or a cook bears just as much responsibility for the overall picture of what's happening.   
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2012, 03:50:00 PM »
Seriously? A cook?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2012, 04:16:50 PM »
Absolutely.  You think the guys fighting would be half as good at what they did if they had to eat MRE's 3 per day for 9 months?  They'd still do it, but the cooks make them better at what they do.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2012, 05:25:12 PM »
It just seems extreme to me. I wouldn't even assign that sorta blame to the guy who cooked mess hall meals for Nazis, and I hate Nazis (as any non-sociopathic person should).

Edit: Actually probably not a great comparison, because some such cooks saved people like my grandfather from starvation.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2012, 05:42:35 PM »
And undoubtedly there are American cooks (and other roles) who are similarly sympathetic.  Again, I'm just saying that they're all a part of a bigger machine and as such bare some responsibility. 
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2012, 06:13:04 PM »
So they should kill themselves?

Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2012, 06:38:05 PM »
So they should kill themselves?
I'd call that a personal decision between them and their conscience. 

Ohgar's the one who suggested they should.  Not me.  I've only refuted some bogus remarks by people assailing his position, as I so often do.  If you're asking for my thoughts on what Ohgar said, I've already made them, but I'll sum them up again.  I don't think it's right to suggest that service members should off themselves to make up for what they, collectively, have done.  There are assuredly some real bastards out there, but for the most part I consider them more misguided than rotten.  Where I did agree with Ohgar is that it wouldn't break my heart any if they get treated exactly the same way they treat their enemies.

No, justice--proportional justice--would be if U.S. soldiers were dragged around the world to various secret military prisons and given no fair trial whatsoever before they were executed by a military tribunal or, in the event that they were discovered to be innocent, dropped off in the middle of the night on a highway in Eastern Europe with the clothes on their back, no money and no ride home. This is just something I don't exactly shed a tear about.
This is a much more reasonable stance than saying they should all kill themselves.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2012, 06:45:41 PM »
But that's just the point; the servicemen who didn't see combat didn't really treat their enemies any way, because they never went hand-to-hand with anyone in their service. I hardly think the cook did.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2012, 07:04:47 PM »
Aside from the fact that I still maintain that support personnel are equally culpable, what about bin Laden's driver?  How about the guys who couriered thumb drives for him?  The guy manning the tandoor in some Tora Bora cave?  I assure you that plenty of people have been blown up, or rendered and tortured for doing nothing more than cooking naan for bad people. 

It's like the guys installing the toilets in the Death Star.  They knew what they were getting into when they took the job, and because they're helping to operate the machine, they take their chances the same way. 
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: One US soldier suicide per day
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2012, 07:08:35 PM »
I feel a Clerks viewing coming on.
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