Author Topic: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand  (Read 4451 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2012, 07:06:03 PM »
A democracy means the public elects. A republic is government through representation. Two totally separate things and not mutually exclusive.
And while there are certainly a lot of people conflating the two things, there's also a lot of people who don't know the difference between mass and weight.

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« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 07:12:45 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2012, 07:13:57 PM »
It's funny, because one of those 17 specific powers given to Congress, is to power to "promote the General Welfare." If memory serves me correctly, it's even the first one listed.

James Madison clarified the meaning of "general welfare" in Federalist #41. The 17 enumerated powers (which you can read here) are the things by which Congress is supposed to promote the general welfare and common defense. If "general welfare" and "common defense" were standalone statements, surely they wouldn't have enumerated specific powers like "To establish Post Offices and Post Roads" and "To provide and maintain a Navy." It would have been redundant. Clearly the Founders did not see it within the scope of the government to provide health care.

At the end of the day, we live in a Democracy. Why? Because our military really won't accept anything else. The system is corrupt and it favors the status quo, but if people truly went out and voted out all the fucking morons in our government

We do not live in a Democracy. This is a very common misconception. We live in a Republic. In fact, true democracies are terrible because they don't protect minority rights. "Democracy is two wolves and and lamb arguing over what's for dinner" as the saying goes. If the U.S. was a true democracy, the Christian majority could, for example, vote away the rights of atheists, Muslims, or Jews.

Yeah, if only.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2012, 07:17:33 PM »
It's funny, because one of those 17 specific powers given to Congress, is to power to "promote the General Welfare." If memory serves me correctly, it's even the first one listed.

James Madison clarified the meaning of "general welfare" in Federalist #41. The 17 enumerated powers (which you can read here) are the things by which Congress is supposed to promote the general welfare and common defense. If "general welfare" and "common defense" were standalone statements, surely they wouldn't have enumerated specific powers like "To establish Post Offices and Post Roads" and "To provide and maintain a Navy." It would have been redundant. Clearly the Founders did not see it within the scope of the government to provide health care.

Funny thing you mention Madison. He was originally against the first Bank of the US. After being President, and trying to wage a war without a bank, he changed his mind. So, even though the Constitution doesn't mention a bank, even the person you have to call the Father of the American Constitution, Madison, came to back the bank as Constitutional.

I don't see how that example doesn't perfectly correlate with social security and welfare.

Quote
At the end of the day, we live in a Democracy. Why? Because our military really won't accept anything else. The system is corrupt and it favors the status quo, but if people truly went out and voted out all the fucking morons in our government

We do not live in a Democracy. This is a very common misconception. We live in a Republic. In fact, true democracies are terrible because they don't protect minority rights. "Democracy is two wolves and and lamb arguing over what's for dinner" as the saying goes. If the U.S. was a true democracy, the Christian majority could, for example, vote away the rights of atheists, Muslims, or Jews.

I failed to finish my though, so I finished it in the edit.

You're correct in saying we were originally a Republic, but there's been numerous changes to the original Constitution to make us a Democracy. Most historians I've read end the Republic in 1830, with the Election of Jackson. The ideals of this country are democratic, the rights and morals we exude everywhere, are democratic. I'd say even the anarcho-capitalists that show up around here every now and then are even promoting a form of democracy. There are some Republican features still to our government, but it's wrong to say that we are a still Republic.

I really don't see how giving minority rights makes us not a Democracy. The people are the ones prohibiting themselves from overruling minority rights. If the people really wanted to trample on the rights of minorities, they could change the Constitution to allow for it. Hard to see how this makes us not a democracy?

A democracy means the public elects. A republic is government through representation. Two totally separate things and not mutually exclusive.
rumborak

This is true, but in the beginning, this country was not a Democracy. It was purely a Republic. This is what the Founders called it, this is what they advocated. You had to be a rich property owner to vote. It's mostly forgotten about, but white male suffrage didn't occur until 1830.

Re: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2012, 12:13:20 AM »
Of course the United States has democratic aspects. I was just pointing out that it's a misnomer to call our form of government "Democracy." Most encyclopedias will list the United States' form of government as a Constitutional Republic. It's close to a representative democracy, but the Bill Of Rights, and to a miniscule extent, the Electoral College, temper majority rule. I'm not anti-democracy per se. There just has to be a basal assumption that individuals are born with certain inalienable rights that "the mob" can't take away.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2012, 05:32:15 AM »
And we know how libertarians love to tote those inalienable, "natural" rights.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2012, 02:57:37 PM »
Of course the United States has democratic aspects. I was just pointing out that it's a misnomer to call our form of government "Democracy." Most encyclopedias will list the United States' form of government as a Constitutional Republic. It's close to a representative democracy, but the Bill Of Rights, and to a miniscule extent, the Electoral College, temper majority rule. I'm not anti-democracy per se. There just has to be a basal assumption that individuals are born with certain inalienable rights that "the mob" can't take away.

But there's also the 14th, 15th, 17th, 19th, 23rd,  and 24th amendments.

"mob rule" and "democracy" are not the same thing. Besides, the majority denies many rights to minorities in this country, and always has. Gay's can't marry in most states, there's the war on drugs, and a host of other area's where the majority has it's say, and does so by stepping on other minorities rights.

Offline snapple

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Re: Basic Contradiction I Don't Understand
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2012, 10:46:50 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure."

All people are raging, certified, mega-hypocrites.

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