Author Topic: Some people never learn...  (Read 6107 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2012, 12:46:21 AM »
I have to say, this just sounds you're making up parts as they please you. Where do you get this notion from?

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2012, 04:37:49 AM »
I have an idea that maybe the "taking up serpents" thing means "casting out demons".
Why?  There is plenty of demon talk in the Gospels.  If the author meant "demons" he would have written "demons."

But it doesn't matter, because that part of Mark is not original to the text in any verifiable way.  It is a later addition.  Not to be trusted as historical or doctrinal.
That's disputed. It might be a part of the original, it might not be.
It's not really disputed, except perhaps by fundamentalists who start out their examinations with the belief that everything in the Bible is straight from God.

Virtually every major Bible translation brackets off that section of Mark.

Why? If the spiritual realm is real, than why are demons/daemons/whatever a ludicrous concept?
Because if there is an omnipotent God, then how could there exist demons without his consent?  And why would an all-loving God allow demons to possess people and cause them harm?  This is not the question of why does evil exist in the world, but why would God create such beings in the first place?  It makes no sense.

I don't know how you could believe Jesus is the Messiah and not believe in demons. Jesus himself believed in demons.
Let's be as accurate as possible.  We don't know what Jesus believed.  But the Gospel writers certainly believed in demons.  That doesn't make them real.

And frankly, "Messiah" is a loaded term.  I believe Jesus was the Son of God, but by virtually every Jewish expectation of who and what the Messiah would be, Jesus doesn't really fit the mold.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2012, 06:41:43 AM »
I'm with yesh....only I don't feel its in dispute at all...but your mileage may vary.

There really is NO evidence that this "scripture" (note the quotations) does belong there.   There earliest manuscripts don't have it...ergo, it was added later.   The text is spurious.   

Moving on. 
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2012, 08:59:01 AM »
That's a lot of detailed things you know about him. Impressive. Can't remember reading any of that in the gospels. I remember reading though how Jesus threw a pretty human hissy fit in the temple.

And if course that "why have you forsaken me" part. Don't exactly get how a part of a Trinity needs to ask the other parts for clarification.

rumborak


I have heard it explained that he was quoting the 22 Psalm, which begins, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"  and is prophetic of his crucifixion.
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Offline reneranucci

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2012, 09:28:25 AM »
Because if there is an omnipotent God, then how could there exist demons without his consent?  And why would an all-loving God allow demons to possess people and cause them harm?  This is not the question of why does evil exist in the world, but why would God create such beings in the first place?  It makes no sense.
Why do you think they exist without his consent?

And why is the notion of demons possesing people contradictory to an all-loving God? We have ample evidence from the Scriptures that he allows people to suffer to fulfill his purpose, to show his glory, to strenghten the believer's faith, etc. I thought is one of the most evident doctrines from the Scriptures. Otherwise, you would even question why people get ill, or why God created illness.

I have another question, because I'm curious about what is your perspective on this issue. If there are no demons, who was crying out when being cast out of a person, or who recognized the Messiah, or who said that they knew Paul and Christ but didn't know the jewish exorcists? I'm interested in what alternate explanations are to those passages.

Offline Odysseus

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2012, 09:54:08 AM »
Aside from that, I disagree with the thread title.  He got bit three times and survived without medical treatment.  I'm not so sure those were lessons to be learned insomuch as reinforcement to be gained.

Quote
But the pastor died after being bitten by a rattlesnake he had owned for years, mirroring the death of his own father in 1983.


This, plus the previous three bites of his own really ought to have been warning enough IMO.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2012, 10:28:14 AM »
If he was bit 3 previous times, and survived without medical treatment, that would likely be reinforcement to continue.  In his mind he probably thought the three times he was bit, and survived, confirmed his faith/devotion/divine protection.
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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2012, 10:32:12 AM »
Then why to need to keep "testing his faith"?  Maybe that's rhetorical; I'm not sure.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2012, 10:33:25 AM »
People are always testing themselves.  That's human nature.

And maybe his father lacked faith.
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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2012, 10:54:35 AM »
I guess.  But if he truly believed that his faith would save him, if it was strong enough, then he would also believe that he'd die otherwise.  I honestly don't see the point of the test if the penalty for failure is death.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2012, 11:08:06 AM »
Maybe he felt it was his mission or calling.
I just see jesus doing a  :facepalm: when he read this on yahoo news, and saying, "wow, I need to be more careful in what I say".
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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2012, 11:19:02 AM »
if there is an omnipotent God, then how could there exist demons without his consent?  And why would an all-loving God allow demons to possess people and cause them harm?  This is not the question of why does evil exist in the world, but why would God create such beings in the first place?  It makes no sense.

I recall Quran defines demons like that. You know, I do not believe in religions but here is what I get.

One of the verse of the Koran says: Demons were created by God to see how people deal with them. If they oppose a rigorous resistance to them they will be awarded but if they fall a prey to temptations and follow their path there will be a penalty.

Though I always think these things are just symbolic to show us the good and the bad here is what Quran says about this matter.

Again, one of the verse says: God and the Devil had a bargain. The Devil said, if I turn people into a badness until the doomsday you will forgive me. If not I accept and bow down in front of people. The Devil portrayed in Quran, he was one of the angels. When God created Adam and Eve and ordered all his angels bow down in front of the people The Devil rejected, that's how the badness started.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2012, 11:25:56 AM »
Seems like a lot of nice allegories and made up theories to justify what you see around you. There's much more reasonable explanations that can explain the "demons" people experience, and they don't require us to take a leap of faith into a religion.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2012, 11:32:29 AM »
Maybe he felt it was his mission or calling.
I just see jesus doing a  :facepalm: when he read this on yahoo news, and saying, "wow, I need to be more careful in what I say".

forgive me, Lord, but I  :lol

Offline Ħ

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2012, 12:24:48 PM »
I have an idea that maybe the "taking up serpents" thing means "casting out demons".
Why?  There is plenty of demon talk in the Gospels.  If the author meant "demons" he would have written "demons."

But it doesn't matter, because that part of Mark is not original to the text in any verifiable way.  It is a later addition.  Not to be trusted as historical or doctrinal.
That's disputed. It might be a part of the original, it might not be.
It's not really disputed, except perhaps by fundamentalists who start out their examinations with the belief that everything in the Bible is straight from God.

Virtually every major Bible translation brackets off that section of Mark.
Those translations never say that Mark's long ending was definitely an addition. They just say "This section is not included in 2 manuscripts" or whatever, and leave it up to you.

Quote
Why? If the spiritual realm is real, than why are demons/daemons/whatever a ludicrous concept?
Because if there is an omnipotent God, then how could there exist demons without his consent?  And why would an all-loving God allow demons to possess people and cause them harm?  This is not the question of why does evil exist in the world, but why would God create such beings in the first place?  It makes no sense.
How would anyone know the answer to something like that? We have no idea what demons are or how they came to be. For all we know they could be fallen angels.

Quote
I don't know how you could believe Jesus is the Messiah and not believe in demons. Jesus himself believed in demons.
Let's be as accurate as possible.  We don't know what Jesus believed.  But the Gospel writers certainly believed in demons.  That doesn't make them real.
Although we don't have writings directly from Jesus, we have records of what he said. So if he taught about demons, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he believed in demons, too.

Quote
And frankly, "Messiah" is a loaded term.  I believe Jesus was the Son of God, but by virtually every Jewish expectation of who and what the Messiah would be, Jesus doesn't really fit the mold.
Your view seems really inconsistent. Okay, so he's the Son of God.

He calls himself the Son of man, referencing Daniel, who is supposed to establish God's kingdom. He quotes the OT and clearly places his trust in the OT. He teaches eternal existence in either heaven or hell. But apparently, he's horribly mistaken and he got it all wrong.

What's so special about being the Son of God, then?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2012, 12:47:48 PM »
I have an idea that maybe the "taking up serpents" thing means "casting out demons".
Why?  There is plenty of demon talk in the Gospels.  If the author meant "demons" he would have written "demons."

But it doesn't matter, because that part of Mark is not original to the text in any verifiable way.  It is a later addition.  Not to be trusted as historical or doctrinal.
That's disputed. It might be a part of the original, it might not be.
It's not really disputed, except perhaps by fundamentalists who start out their examinations with the belief that everything in the Bible is straight from God.

Virtually every major Bible translation brackets off that section of Mark.
Those translations never say that Mark's long ending was definitely an addition. They just say "This section is not included in 2 manuscripts" or whatever, and leave it up to you.

Exactly.  It is not in the earliest manuscripts that we currently have.  But those earlier manuscripts are not originals either.  So while the end of Mark 16 (and  couple of other passages) may indeed have been later additions, we cannot know that for certain.  It may also be true that the original manuscript in fact had that in there, and that it made it into most copies, but for some reason was omitted in the earliest ones that we still have.  That seems like the less likely of the two possibilities, but still entirely possible.

However, my general approach wiht that small handful of "questionable" passages is to apply a higher degree of scrutiny to them than I otherwise might, and to not base any major life decisions solely on a passage that might never have been intended to be in the original to begin with.  Uniformly, I find that that is not a problem because, as with the passage in question, there is nothing in it that Christians are actually commanded to do. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2012, 02:58:44 PM »
Those translations never say that Mark's long ending was definitely an addition. They just say "This section is not included in 2 manuscripts" or whatever, and leave it up to you.
Well, the longer ending isn't found in the oldest manuscripts.  Stylistically, the Greek is not quite the same as the rest of the text of Mark.  In fact, there are at least four different endings of Mark found in manuscripts dating to the 5th century or before.  All of them come after 16:8.  We have testimony from several church fathers that the versions of Mark they knew ended at 16:8.  These are the reasons it is bracketed.  But by all means, take it at face value if you like.

We have no idea what demons are or how they came to be. For all we know they could be fallen angels.
Or extreme medical/psychological disorders.

Although we don't have writings directly from Jesus, we have records of what he said. So if he taught about demons, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he believed in demons, too.
I didn't mention "reasonable" for precisely this reason.  Things I may find reasonable you may not, and things you find reasonable I may not.  That is a very subjective term.  That's why I said "accurate."

Your view seems really inconsistent. Okay, so he's the Son of God.
Inconsistent, how?  Messiah =/= Son of God.  The terms are not interchangeable.

He calls himself the Son of man
Well, that's debatable.  But even so, that has nothing to do with terms "Messiah" or "Son of God."

He quotes the OT and clearly places his trust in the OT.
Clearly.

He teaches eternal existence in either heaven or hell. But apparently, he's horribly mistaken and he got it all wrong.
When did I say that Jesus was mistaken or got anything wrong?

What's so special about being the Son of God, then?
What are you talking about?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2012, 03:03:40 PM »
In fact, there are at least four different endings of Mark found in manuscripts dating to the 5th century or before.  All of them come after 16:8.  We have testimony from several church fathers that the versions of Mark they knew ended at 16:8.  These are the reasons it is bracketed.  But by all means, take it at face value if you like.

Oh, interesting.  I didn't know that.  I never really bothered to look that deeply into that particular passage since nothing after 16:8 really affects anything I do anyway (other than, arguably, verse 16, but I don't even need to rely on that verse either because the idea is so clearly found in other passages that are not in doubt).  Can you point me toward a source for that?  I'm not doubting.  I'm just eager to read up on that since, again, I didn't know that.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2012, 03:11:14 PM »
I studied it years ago.  Hang on.

Wait, here is a handy page.  http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

Skip down a ways to the info from Bruce Metzger, fairly informative.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2012, 03:12:32 PM »
So what if the end of Mark was a later addition? Why does that automatically have to mean that the section isn't still the word of God or that God just decided to add it later? Especially if it made into the Bible v. Council of Nicaea.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2012, 03:15:26 PM »
Why would God need to add something later?

"Oh shit, I forgot that part.  Hang on."  *clears throat*
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2012, 03:51:44 PM »
Why would God need to add something later?

Why did God have to tell people not to eat unclean food and then tell them later they could eat it? The entire Bible is the history of God adding stuff later.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2012, 03:55:14 PM »
Yeah, but not to the same book.  He is a sequel producer, not an editor.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2012, 04:11:48 PM »
Eh, I don't know why you would say that since you most likely don't believe, say, that the book of Isaiah was written by one person. Even fundamentalists will admit that parts of the Pentateuch weren't written by Moses.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2012, 04:32:51 PM »
Eh, I don't know why you would say that since you most likely don't believe, say, that the book of Isaiah was written by one person. Even fundamentalists will admit that parts of the Pentateuch weren't written by Moses.
I believe that Isaiah was written by no less than 3 people, and none of the Pentateuch was written by Moses.

But I don't believe that ANY of it was written by God the way you've been indicating or that most fundamentalists would say.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2012, 04:44:00 PM »
The problem I have is Christians who treat the Bible as God's word deciding which part is and isn't included based on an archaeological discovery. I mean it's pretty clear that the Bible has been edited multiple times, some of which we'll probably never know were not in the original. But that doesn't mean you just disregard the edits.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2012, 04:45:31 PM »
Hef - I'm just saying that it seems that you think that although Jesus was the Son of God, he was wrong in a lot of his teachings (demons, hell, the word of God). That seems inconsistent to me.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2012, 07:27:21 PM »
It's kind of funny how threads begin with the heathens questioning the Christians, and end with the Christians fighting amongst themselves.   :lol
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2012, 10:06:29 PM »
I too find that highly amusing. There's almost this tenuous cease fire amongst Christians, and all you need to do is throw a stone into the mine field and enjoy the show.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2012, 04:27:22 AM »
Hef - I'm just saying that it seems that you think that although Jesus was the Son of God, he was wrong in a lot of his teachings (demons, hell, the word of God). That seems inconsistent to me.
Thinking an author may be wrong about something =/= thinking Jesus may be wrong about something.

And Rathma, the Christians who don't follow the Bible 100 % literally don't view it as "the word of God" like the ones who do.  I think it is exactly what it appears to be - the written record of humanity's experience of God, as experienced by two distinct groups - the ancient Israelites and some of the earliest Christians.  But definitely written by HUMANS, complete with all of their foibles and faults. 
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Offline Odysseus

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2012, 05:55:07 AM »
I guess.  But if he truly believed that his faith would save him, if it was strong enough, then he would also believe that he'd die otherwise.  I honestly don't see the point of the test if the penalty for failure is death.

Indeed.  If he doesn't die then halleluja he survived, praise be to god.  If he Gies then halleluja God wants him home, praise be to God.  They've all got their glib soundbites well rehearsed, it's just a question of waiting to see which button to push.

Given that it was his pet snake, I can't help wondering if he forgot to milk the poison ducts this time.  I guess he won't be making that mistake again...

Offline Odysseus

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2012, 05:57:43 AM »
And Rathma, the Christians who don't follow the Bible 100 % literally don't view it as "the word of God" like the ones who do.  I think it is exactly what it appears to be - the written record of humanity's experience of God, as experienced by two distinct groups - the ancient Israelites and some of the earliest Christians.  But definitely written by HUMANS, complete with all of their foibles and faults.

A diamond in the rough, sir!  :tup

Offline Rathma

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2012, 04:16:03 AM »
And Rathma, the Christians who don't follow the Bible 100 % literally don't view it as "the word of God" like the ones who do.  I think it is exactly what it appears to be - the written record of humanity's experience of God, as experienced by two distinct groups - the ancient Israelites and some of the earliest Christians.  But definitely written by HUMANS, complete with all of their foibles and faults.

That's a pretty interesting way to look at things. If I was brought up with that type of Christianity I might have found a way to still call myself a Christian.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2012, 04:24:23 AM »
And Rathma, the Christians who don't follow the Bible 100 % literally don't view it as "the word of God" like the ones who do.  I think it is exactly what it appears to be - the written record of humanity's experience of God, as experienced by two distinct groups - the ancient Israelites and some of the earliest Christians.  But definitely written by HUMANS, complete with all of their foibles and faults.

That's a pretty interesting way to look at things. If I was brought up with that type of Christianity I might have found a way to still call myself a Christian.
It is the only way many people can still call themselves Christian.  And the lack of that POV is what will ultimately spell the end of Christianity, IMO.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Some people never learn...
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2012, 11:31:44 AM »
It's sad that Christians will be the first ones to call this guy out as an idiot when their faith will probably never even come close to what this guy had. R.I.P.
We should admire this fellow whose faith was evidently misplaced?