Author Topic: Who do you think is described here?  (Read 26603 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline comment

  • Custom Title
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
  • What’s on your mind Facebook?
Who do you think is described here?
« on: May 22, 2012, 07:11:57 PM »
"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his scourging we are healed."

This is a verse from Isaiah 53.  I think it sounds like Jesus.  In fact the whole rest of the chapter does too IMO.  It amazes me that this was written about 700 years before He came. 
Signature

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012, 07:27:23 PM »
You're shocked that there was prophecy that jesus was said to have lived up to when the only reason people care about him is because they believe he lived up to those prophecies?
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline comment

  • Custom Title
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
  • What’s on your mind Facebook?
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 07:51:13 PM »
I see your point Adami, it still amazes me though.  I wasn't brought up reading the Bible or appreciating it like I'm growing to now and I thought since there's a lot of verses flying around I'd point out something that may amaze others to find out too.  BTW as a Christian I want to publicly repent for the sake of other's, even church forefathers, that were involved with the persecution of your people.  May Hashem bless you and keep you.  Shalom! 
Signature

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 07:52:46 PM »
Good god. Have a lovely thread, I'm out.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 11:14:55 PM »
Do you think Nostradamus accurately predicted the future?

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 12:48:27 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty cool. Great passage. It's pretty famous though and I'd be surprised if most people don't know it already. Its being well-known shouldn't lessen the impact though.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

  • Official Forum Sous Chef and broler5
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13979
  • Gender: Male
  • Kelly Clarkson BEEFS
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 07:17:25 AM »
"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his strypes we are healed."



Approves
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 11:18:35 AM by Sir GuitarCozmo »

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 08:23:20 AM »
Funny thing is, I actually looked up the whole passage, and after reading it I thought "hmm, sounds more like he's talking about Israel". Then I read the Wikipedia page and apparently that's how the Jews interpret it too.

I think one dead giveaway is that the whole thing is written in past tense. Also I don't remember Jesus being despised by humanity, or him being disfigured.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 08:40:57 AM »
Another viewpoint is the story of jesus, being written well after his death, ascribes things about by him that can only be accepted through faith, and could have been highly influenced by the prophecy.

In other words, the authors that spoke of the reasons he died (for our sins) were heavily influenced by the earlier writings in the bible.  They wanted to believe he died for those reasons.

Heck, maybe jesus himself was an ordinary man who thought of himself as the person described in that prophecy, and molded his teachings and ministry around them.

Just another explanation.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 08:53:07 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 10:53:56 AM »
I've never got a clear notion from the NT that Jesus accepted what his disciples were hoping him to be. I still think he saw himself more a preparer for the Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 10:57:06 AM »
Or maybe he's the Messiah that fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 53. :dunno:
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 11:00:41 AM »
It's of course a possibility, but you can't deny that a good amount of "benevolent interpretation" has to go in to make that work. If you just go by circumstantial evidence the most likely explanation is the Jewish one.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19150
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 11:10:36 AM »
I've never got a clear notion from the NT that Jesus accepted what his disciples were hoping him to be. I still think he saw himself more a preparer for the Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

rumborak

Matthew 16:13-20

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
 
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
 
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.




Seems like a pretty 'clear notion' to me
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12786
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 11:14:35 AM »
Regarding Isaiah 53:  Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him.  Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language).  Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus.  And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19150
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 11:27:33 AM »
Regarding Isaiah 53:  Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him.  Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language).  Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus.  And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.

Wasn't what made Jesus, 'Jesus'...the fact that he fulfilled EVERY prophecy? I mean...that fact along with some cool stuff like the ressurection is what makes him the Messiah.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 11:30:47 AM »
Regarding Isaiah 53:  Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him.  Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language).  Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus.  And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.

Wasn't what made Jesus, 'Jesus'...the fact that he fulfilled EVERY prophecy? I mean...that fact along with some cool stuff like the ressurection is what makes him the Messiah.

Isnt it possible the story of the ressurection was created so it would fulfill the prophecy?
Along with many other acts?
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19150
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 11:35:42 AM »
Regarding Isaiah 53:  Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him.  Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language).  Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus.  And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.

Wasn't what made Jesus, 'Jesus'...the fact that he fulfilled EVERY prophecy? I mean...that fact along with some cool stuff like the ressurection is what makes him the Messiah.

Isnt it possible the story of the ressurection was created so it would fulfill the prophecy?
Along with many other acts?

It's all about 'Faith' isn't it? Possible? Why sure? It's what you choose to believe.






It's been fun everyone :metal
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline Rathma

  • Posts: 620
  • oh no she didnt
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 01:12:00 PM »
That passage has probably shaped Christian doctrine quite a lot, since Jesus himself never said anything about him dying for our (humanity?) sins.

Offline ddtonfire

  • Posts: 2175
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2012, 01:38:39 PM »
I think his "destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days" (Matthew 26) as well as "nobody can know the father except through me" (John 14) are indicative of that.

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8521
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 01:50:26 PM »
That passage has probably shaped Christian doctrine quite a lot, since Jesus himself never said anything about him dying for our (humanity?) sins.

But I thought....

Quote from: Jesus
Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.  It will be shed for you and  for all so that sins may be forgiven.  Do this in memory of me.

Offline comment

  • Custom Title
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
  • What’s on your mind Facebook?
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 02:51:00 PM »
Do you think Nostradamus accurately predicted the future?

Hey Scheavo  :)

Wow I forgot about him and Stryper for that matter.   :)

I remember being younger and watching a video and maybe catching something on the history channel talking about 2012 doomsday stuff.  I'm not as familiar with him, but when I was younger I was impressed by what the video presented.  IMO, there might be something to his stuff, but I'd be inclined to think it would be a spirit of divination. 
Signature

Offline comment

  • Custom Title
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
  • What’s on your mind Facebook?
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 02:53:28 PM »
"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his strypes we are healed."



Approves
[/quote

 :rollin

WOW, thanks... I think.  :lol
Signature

Offline comment

  • Custom Title
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
  • What’s on your mind Facebook?
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 03:37:17 PM »
... "hmm, sounds more like he's talking about Israel". Then I read the Wikipedia page and apparently that's how the Jews interpret it too.
rumborak

Hey rum  :)

That's fair. 

What doesn't seem fair to me are testimonies from Jews I know who believe Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah.  I've heard about Rabbi's not teaching or exposing their congregations to the whole chapter for whatever their reasons.     

I've never got a clear notion from the NT that Jesus accepted what his disciples were hoping him to be. I still think he saw himself more a preparer for the Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

rumborak

Okay, that's fair too.     

You might find this interesting then.  In the beginning of Acts after spending 40 days speaking with his disciples about the Kingdom of God, their question about restoring the Kingdom of Israel comes up.  Then of course He says it's not for them to know the times or seasons.  So even after hearing Him for 40 days they were considering the restoration of Israel.  I think that goes along with what your saying.  What I see here though is He is preparing the world for His second coming, which is why He had them wait for the Holy Spirit and then start preaching to the other nations after He left.     
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 03:44:18 PM by comment »
Signature

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 03:46:48 PM »
Matthew 16:13-20

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
 
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
 
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


You can call it my heathen bias, but that last sentence (and it appears in various forms throughout Matthew) sends a shitloads of alarm bells ringing.
In the sense that that sentence is the perfect answer to a doubter's question "If Jesus is the Messiah, why have I never even heard of him?"
The answer: "He told the inner circle he is the Messiah, but also instructed us to not tell anyone else. But I'm letting you into the secret."
It makes zero sense, but it acts as a stopgap explanation to get rid of the inconvenient fact that the supposed Messiah had almost zero impact during his lifetime.

rumborak
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 03:57:26 PM by rumborak »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 04:00:58 PM »
You don't think it's fair that Jews don't believe ol' joshy is the messiah? Well...............he didn't fulfill the prophecies in our opinions. Also, I doubt too many congregations neglect aspects of the Torah in fear of people converting to Christianity.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2012, 04:19:31 PM »
Matthew 16:13-20

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
 
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
 
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


You can call it my heathen bias, but that last sentence (and it appears in various forms throughout Matthew) sends a shitloads of alarm bells ringing.
In the sense that that sentence is the perfect answer to a doubter's question "If Jesus is the Messiah, why have I never even heard of him?"
The answer: "He told the inner circle he is the Messiah, but also instructed us to not tell anyone else. But I'm letting you into the secret."
It makes zero sense, but it acts as a stopgap explanation to get rid of the inconvenient fact that the supposed Messiah had almost zero impact during his lifetime.

rumborak

Jesus was very secretive at some points in his ministry. He would heal people and tell them not to tell anyone else. His command in this passage to remain silent about his being the Messiah is probably along the same lines.

I'm not totally sure of the reason but I think it might have to do with this concept:

"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." (Mat 11:25)

Same idea behind the parables.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline comment

  • Custom Title
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
  • What’s on your mind Facebook?
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2012, 04:20:11 PM »
You don't think it's fair that Jews don't believe ol' joshy is the messiah? Well...............he didn't fulfill the prophecies in our opinions. Also, I doubt too many congregations neglect aspects of the Torah in fear of people converting to Christianity.

No Adami, I don't think that.  People should think for themselves.  Based on my friends testimony, what they said wasn't fair IMO.  I didn't try to assume their Rabbi's reasons.  However, I apologize to you for being presumptuous earlier in the thread with my attempt at being conciliatory for what I've learned about Jewish persecution and church involvement. 
Signature

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2012, 05:53:31 PM »
Do you think Nostradamus accurately predicted the future?

Hey Scheavo  :)

Wow I forgot about him and Stryper for that matter.   :)

I remember being younger and watching a video and maybe catching something on the history channel talking about 2012 doomsday stuff.  I'm not as familiar with him, but when I was younger I was impressed by what the video presented.  IMO, there might be something to his stuff, but I'd be inclined to think it would be a spirit of divination.

I guess I'm just inclined to see it more as, if you write vague enough prophecies, people will fill them in and apply them to whomever they want. I read the prophecy in the OP, and I think wow, that could apply to a lot of people.


Offline yeshaberto

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • Gender: Male
  • Somebody Get Me A Doctor! - VH
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2012, 06:01:46 PM »
Perhaps.   But when you notice later in text that the one who was slaughtered is now alive, it narrows it down a little

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2012, 06:07:33 PM »
I assume your talking about the supposed resurrection?

Offline yeshaberto

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • Gender: Male
  • Somebody Get Me A Doctor! - VH
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2012, 06:13:06 PM »
Supposed or not there are not many Jewish messiahs who were rejected unto death, which actually served to be an atoning death who also supposedly came back to life

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2012, 07:13:42 PM »
Supposed or not there are not many Jewish messiahs who were rejected unto death, which actually served to be an atoning death who also supposedly came back to life

There have been multiple false messiahs. But when one group claims one messiah superior, they tend to kill off the competition.


Edit: Also, don't forget the most famous (still yet to proven false) messiah...Brian.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 07:21:01 PM by Adami »
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

  • Official Forum Sous Chef and broler5
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13979
  • Gender: Male
  • Kelly Clarkson BEEFS
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2012, 06:17:10 AM »
"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his strypes we are healed."



Approves

 :rollin

WOW, thanks... I think.  :lol

 :lol  Yeah, it just reminded me that the Stryper logo always had Isaiah 53:5 on it.


Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2012, 07:42:40 AM »
You can call it my heathen bias, but that last sentence (and it appears in various forms throughout Matthew) sends a shitloads of alarm bells ringing.
In the sense that that sentence is the perfect answer to a doubter's question "If Jesus is the Messiah, why have I never even heard of him?"
The answer: "He told the inner circle he is the Messiah, but also instructed us to not tell anyone else. But I'm letting you into the secret."
It makes zero sense, but it acts as a stopgap explanation to get rid of the inconvenient fact that the supposed Messiah had almost zero impact during his lifetime.

rumborak

Jesus was very secretive at some points in his ministry. He would heal people and tell them not to tell anyone else. His command in this passage to remain silent about his being the Messiah is probably along the same lines.

That's really the same thing, right?
Potential convert: "If Jesus is the Messiah, how come I have never heard of all the miracles you speak of?"
Converter: "Well, he performed them, but also instructed the observers not to tell anyone, that's why."

The fact that he gospels write down clearly what Jesus had supposedly told to not reveal to anybody else, is an irony I guess was lost in the fray.

rumborak
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 07:51:15 AM by rumborak »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline AndyDT

  • Posts: 2229
Re: Who do you think is described here?
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2012, 07:55:01 AM »
But we have heard of him because it's all written down in multiple gospels. It was just "in those days" to quote luke that he instructed silence.