Author Topic: Personal encounters with God  (Read 18037 times)

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Offline snapple

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2012, 03:13:59 PM »
Why would God send you to a doctor? God can do everything a doctor can. Why the unnecessary middleman?

Modern science has come a long way. And it wouldn't be an unnecessary middleman. Certain people have to be talked to in certain ways. For example, (as many of you have seen) if my pride gets stepped on, I tend to get really pissy and what not. But, if you stroke my ego for a moment, you can then drop the hammer on me and it won't feel so bad.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2012, 03:17:19 PM »
Yeah, but the net effect of the experience was that he doesn't believe in God or that he needs God to be happy. That was really God's intention?

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2012, 03:20:31 PM »
Sorry if it feels like I'm ripping at you unnecessarily, but this sort of thing -- insisting that works of humans were works of God -- gets under my skin.

Offline snapple

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2012, 03:20:37 PM »
Yeah, but the net effect of the experience was that he doesn't believe in God or that he needs God to be happy. That was really God's intention?

Well, I don't know God's intentions. It could have just been a "seed" that was planted in our fellow poster here. Sometimes they grow, sometimes they die out, sometimes I hate myself for using that metaphor. But, it's the only one that seems to work.

edit: I don't feel that you're ripping at all. I'm not saying it was a God thing. But, I, as a believer, have to wonder if it was God. Nothing is taken away from what the priest and doctors did.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2012, 03:36:48 PM »
That's fair.

Offline snapple

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2012, 03:44:20 PM »
That's fair.

Wait, no! I take it back! You're all ignorant!
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Offline theseoafs

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Offline comment

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2012, 04:10:59 PM »
I would LOVE to have an experience that changes my skeptical mind to believe, with all my heart, in a god and the afterlife.
But I wont force a square peg in a round hole to have those feelings/beliefs/experiences.

EDIT:  There was a time not long ago, where I was going through a rough patch, and I would wake up in the morning with an empty feeling.  I felt lost, was always tired in the morning, and couldnt sleep at night.  I would even have feelings of despair at times.
I wondered if this was a sign that it was time to fill the hole I was feeling with god and religion.
I asked my wife's family's priest (he married us too, and I like him a lot) what he thought.  He said he would always encourage anyone to have a relationship with god, but that he thought it was probably depression.
So I go to the doctor, and get on some meds for bipolar II, and now I feel fine.
It further confirms my skepticism.  Many people would just make that unfounded connection that it was god and jesus calling them, when it is likely a medical issue and/or just going through a rough patch in their life.

 :tup  I respect you not wanting to force anything on yourself.. even if you had beliefs etc.

The situation you described could be one of those situations where someone comes to faith out of despair.  There's nothing wrong with that since Christianity gives hope, but you're talking authenticity.  Personally, I've wrestled with depression at varying degrees and times but have always used natural methods and habits to thrive.  I've even experienced what I consider prolonged supernatural joy and peace.  I like what Snapple was sharing about pride and ego, because when I've had experiences that make meds more unthinkable I don't think about them, when actually they've been a help at times.  I'm preaching to myself writing this.   :)  It's normally pride that resists right?
 
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2012, 05:19:28 PM »
Arguments that take the form "If I was God, I would do things a certain way," "God doesn't do things this way", "Therefore God doesn't exist" aren't very impressive.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2012, 05:51:30 PM »
Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."


Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2012, 12:42:16 AM »
Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."


It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Rick

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2012, 03:22:20 AM »
I had the most profound encounter recently at a lectureship.
There were about 5000 in the auditorium singing "holy, holy, holy."  The first verse was the sopranos only.  The second verse was the altos.  When just the women are singing I tend to close my eyes and just listen to the words.
As the lyrics refer to laying down our crowns before the Holy of Holies, accompanied by the beautiful voices of just the women, I felt like I went into a trance for just a half-second (I will admit I attribute part of it to the fact that I was exhausted from lack of sleep  :)) and thought I was literally there.  My entire body froze for that moment and was covered in goosebumps (literally).
I am generally very cautious to try and attribute experiences to being directly from God, and still won't in this case.
I do attribute it, though, to the fact that I have complete confidence that I will one day be in that place casting my crown down before Him.

That's a powerful MUSIC experience - why does it have to be anything to do with God? I've had many a similar thing happen when listening to live music. Both times I've seen Diamanda Galas live I was pretty much like that all the way through, then spontaneously burst into tears when I left the venue after the first gig. I'm pretty sure Diamanda would hunt me down and punch me if I claimed that it was anything to do with God.

Offline snapple

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2012, 11:33:35 AM »
Rick - could it be God using music to speak to him? In this case, he believes so. You don't get to tell him it was something else. If he thought he stabbed himself when it was clearly a gunshot wound, then I would let that fly. When it's spiritual, beyond physical, you don't get to tell someone what they thought happened.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2012, 11:36:07 AM »
Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."


It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?

It's just as much of an argument as the other side. There's also a difference between not understanding why God does something, and seeing that God is "supposedly" doing something that we clearly identify as illogical.

Ya know what's intuitive for me? Not believing that God exists.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #84 on: May 23, 2012, 11:38:17 AM »
Rick - could it be God using music to speak to him? In this case, he believes so. You don't get to tell him it was something else. If he thought he stabbed himself when it was clearly a gunshot wound, then I would let that fly. When it's spiritual, beyond physical, you don't get to tell someone what they thought happened.

In the context of this forum, one can say what the alternatives can be.  And as I read Yesh's post, it appeared he wasn't ready to attribute the experience as being directly from god anyway.
The explanation that it could be completely a physical and emotional reaction (from lack of sleep and intense love of music) is entirely possible.
I get goosebumps from certain musical passages....I'm pretty sure it isnt god....but in Yesh's case, only he will know if it is knowable.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2012, 11:41:05 AM »
Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."


It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?

It's just as much of an argument as the other side. There's also a difference between not understanding why God does something, and seeing that God is "supposedly" doing something that we clearly identify as illogical.

Ya know what's intuitive for me? Not believing that God exists.

Word.
I would love to have the experience that makes me believe.  To know there is a god and I will be "up there" after death is probably a great way to live life.  But until I know it in my heart AND brain, I wont waste my time.  One thing worse than living without faith is living with fake faith.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 11:58:10 AM by eric42434224 »
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2012, 12:33:48 PM »
I am generally very cautious to try and attribute experiences to being directly from God, and still won't in this case.
I do attribute it, though, to the fact that I have complete confidence that I will one day be in that place casting my crown down before Him.

That's a powerful MUSIC experience - why does it have to be anything to do with God? I've had many a similar thing happen when listening to live music. Both times I've seen Diamanda Galas live I was pretty much like that all the way through, then spontaneously burst into tears when I left the venue after the first gig. I'm pretty sure Diamanda would hunt me down and punch me if I claimed that it was anything to do with God.

That was the purpose of the two statements above.  The attributing it to God was not that He caused me to have the experience, but my faith in the truth of the lyrics brought about the emotions.
In reality, I would have had that experience whether God exists or not because of my faith.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2012, 04:31:47 PM »
Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."


It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?

It's just as much of an argument as the other side. There's also a difference between not understanding why God does something, and seeing that God is "supposedly" doing something that we clearly identify as illogical.

Ya know what's intuitive for me? Not believing that God exists.
There's nothing wrong with saying that "God works in mysterious ways". He is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good. We barely know anything, can't do much at all, and have cloudy perceptions of goodness. What authority do we have to say God should do this or should do that?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2012, 05:50:14 PM »
It's a fallacy: appeal to ignorance. You're basically even admitting that it's a fallacy. If God works in mysterious ways, how do you even know it's God? By putting God on such a mysterious level, you deny yourself any right to actually talk about him, and you even undermine your own ability to say god work's in mysterious ways.

So there is plenty wrong with it, at least if you want to be logical and rational.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2012, 06:50:10 PM »
Appealing to ignorance is not a fallacy. Saying that you have access to the answers to everything - now that's something much more concerning.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2012, 06:53:52 PM »
This is the fallacy:

1) There are things humans don't understand.

2) (From 1) Therefore, there must be a being that understands everything.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2012, 06:54:46 PM »
I don't remember anyone in the thread that argued that.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #92 on: May 23, 2012, 07:02:29 PM »
You're right, I misunderstood what was being discussed.

Let's try again: the fallacy is to attribute anything to God whatsoever when we're already claiming that we're so below him that we can't understand what he's doing.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2012, 07:04:33 PM »
Nah, there are some things we can attribute to God. We aren't completely ignorant. We're just mostly ignorant.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #94 on: May 23, 2012, 07:06:25 PM »
What's something specific that we can certainly attribute to God (i.e. something that isn't "life")?

Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #95 on: May 23, 2012, 07:13:33 PM »
Hold on, all I'm saying is that it's wrong to say that God ought to act in such-and-such way because we, with our limited knowledge, think he should.

It might also be wrong to ascribe to God any properties at all. It might not be. Even if we can't ascribe any properties to God, that doesn't validate Sheavo's argument. An invalid argument is invalid in and of itself.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2012, 07:26:38 PM »
I don't know. To me, this whole "God works in mysterious ways" stuff just seems like a way to write off the problem of evil, to keep people quiet and obedient.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2012, 08:49:10 PM »
Appealing to ignorance is not a fallacy.

Ya it is.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html

Quote
There is no evidence against p.
Therefore, p.

There is no evidence for p.
Therefore, not-p.

An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.


There is no evidence that this event was not God

Therefore God.

That is essentially what you're saying when you say that, "God works in mysterious ways." The whole reason you say it's mysterious, is because you can't prove and support the claim (or give evidence) that the event was God.

If you're going to say something doesn't exist, like appealing to ignorance, it shouldn't be so easily verifiable as a fallacy.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2012, 08:56:00 PM »
Saying "God works in mysterious ways" was never used as an argument for God's existence in this thread.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2012, 09:05:22 PM »
I never said it was?

I'll be a little less lazy: A = God caused this event, ("God works in mysterious ways")

There is no evidence against "God caused this event,"

Therefore, "God caused this event."

It doesn't matter if you didn't actually phrase it as an argument, saying that God works in mysterious ways is making claims, claims which are illogical. Not putting something in the form of an argument, doesn't mean arguments aren't be presented, or that you can't say some illogical, fallacious, etc.

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2012, 09:08:18 PM »
This discussion comes from the starting point of already believing in God. It's not necessarily using experience with God to prove his existence. My OP was directed towards people that believe in God.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #101 on: May 23, 2012, 09:16:29 PM »
And the discussion around the OP has had the claim "God works in mysterious ways" being made.

I'm pointing out how that is illogical. This has nothing to do with God's existence. If God existed, and you could prove that such, it would still be a fallacy to say that, "God works in mysterious ways," unless you could somehow directly prove that God caused or planned the event.



Offline Ħ

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #102 on: May 23, 2012, 09:21:06 PM »
Suppose a person already has a belief in God. They pray for something. The prayer gets answered. Either (1) it was a coincidence, or (2) God made it happen. Because that person already has a belief in God, (2) is a viable option. Given their conception of God, it's reasonable to attribute the answered prayer to God.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2012, 04:12:17 AM »
People are absolutely entitled to believe in something irrational and/or illogical, aren't they?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Personal encounters with God
« Reply #104 on: May 24, 2012, 08:28:29 AM »
Suppose a person already has a belief in God. They pray for something. The prayer gets answered. Either (1) it was a coincidence, or (2) God made it happen. Because that person already has a belief in God, (2) is a viable option. Given their conception of God, it's reasonable to attribute the answered prayer to God.

Now your doubling down with the post hoc fallacy .

People are absolutely entitled to believe in something irrational and/or illogical, aren't they?

 Sure, just don't call it logical