Author Topic: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana  (Read 4182 times)

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Offline Chino

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Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« on: May 09, 2012, 04:34:05 PM »
This thread is more about what the states get to decide on for themselves. Why is it that it's up to states to decide how they want marriage to work, but when it comes to pot, the Feds get all over it? What is it that dictates this separation?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 04:46:30 PM »
The fact that there's already an existing federal law classifying marijuana as a schedule I controlled substance.  There is no federal law defining marriage.  Uncle Sammy could seek to institute such a law, and maybe it'd stand and maybe it wouldn't.  If it stood, then it would supersede state law. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 04:56:20 PM »
Then why is it that some states allow it? 

Or is it just that some states have elected not to enforce it?

And while we're at it...can you make a law out of NOT enforcing a law?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 05:06:05 PM »
Then why is it that some states allow it? 

Or is it just that some states have elected not to enforce it?
I don't believe that either party has an obligation or the authority to enforce the laws of the other. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 05:08:21 PM »
Then why is it that some states allow it? 

Or is it just that some states have elected not to enforce it?
I don't believe that either party has an obligation or the authority to enforce the laws of the other.

So theoretically, any state *could* decide to just say, "we're not going to enforce laws on any controlled substance"...effectively turning their state into the nation's Amsterdam?
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Offline Chino

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 05:08:58 PM »
The fact that there's already an existing federal law classifying marijuana as a schedule I controlled substance.  There is no federal law defining marriage.  Uncle Sammy could seek to institute such a law, and maybe it'd stand and maybe it wouldn't.  If it stood, then it would supersede state law.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks  :tup

Offline El Barto

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 05:14:31 PM »
Then why is it that some states allow it? 

Or is it just that some states have elected not to enforce it?
I don't believe that either party has an obligation or the authority to enforce the laws of the other.

So theoretically, any state *could* decide to just say, "we're not going to enforce laws on any controlled substance"...effectively turning their state into the nation's Amsterdam?
There are others here with a much better understanding of state's rights and federalism, but I believe that to be the case.  However, the federal government has every right to enforce it's own laws, as we're seeing in California.  Californians support medicinal marijuana, and the federal government has the ability to enforce it's own laws if it wishes.  Under Ashcroft, it did somewhat, but tended to focus it's resources on other things.  Under Holder it's stepped up enforcement quite a bit.  If, let's say,  those whacked out Arizonans decided to decriminalize everything to create a robust tourist industry, I suspect you'd see a major effort from Uncle Sammy to put a stop to it. 
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Offline Odysseus

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2012, 11:33:07 AM »
As a Brit, it is interesting to note that there is not that much united about the United States.  I'm guessing you guys must think long and hard about moves to certain states, depending on your personal tastes and stuff...

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2012, 11:44:48 AM »
I am a resident of the U.S., but I cannot say I am knowledgeable about my country. 

There seems to be a great deal of variance from state to state in terms of culture. 

Probably an effect of a large population spread about a very large amount of ground, different climates, elevations, ect. 

State govs. seem to have more direct influence on life than the fed. 

That's all I've got, Odysseus; hope more people (with more knowledge of the U.S.) reply to your post.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2012, 11:55:44 AM »
More power to the states, at least when it comes to those two issues. Some states are just to backwards to even consider these. Let the progressive states take the lead.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 12:05:47 PM »
As a Brit, it is interesting to note that there is not that much united about the United States.  I'm guessing you guys must think long and hard about moves to certain states, depending on your personal tastes and stuff...
The laws really aren't so different between the states that it makes a huge difference.  In determining your ideal place to live, like for retirement or something, you might consider a couple of specifics that apply to you; dope, gay marriage, gun regs, etc.  And taken as a whole, you will definitely consider some states to just be more your type of atmosphere.  I'd certainly get along better in Oregon than I would Arizona.  Overall, though, there are far greater concerns.  I wouldn't turn down a great job in Arizona because they're all a bunch of nutjobs, for example. 

And as it applies to my situation, I've been a pothead going on 30 years.  The fact that it's illegal here hasn't really been a huge concern.  I find it silly and annoying that I have to be so cautious, but the risks aren't so great that it really troubles me too much.  While a state that's actually civilized with regard to such matters would certainly look better to me in a totality of circustances sort of way, I wouldn't pick a state to live in because of their pot stance.  The same would apply if I were a homo or a gun nut. 

Honestly, terrain and weather would trump almost all social regards for me. 
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Offline Omega

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2012, 01:23:36 PM »
I've noticed your disdain for Arizona, Barto, and I would say that it's not misplaced. During my time living there, I came to learn that, while the people are generally very superficial and much too conservative, life in Arizona is actually quite comfortable and pleasurable, not to exclude the mention of the beautiful climate conditions and landscape.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 01:33:29 PM »
I've noticed your disdain for Arizona, Barto, and I would say that it's not misplaced. During my time living there, I came to learn that, while the people are generally very superficial and much too conservative, life in Arizona is actually quite comfortable and pleasurable, not to exclude the mention of the beautiful climate conditions and landscape.
I certainly recognize a great deal of worthiness to Arizona.  I might well be passing through in the next few weeks and I'm actually looking forward to it.  I just think the people there have turned the place into the comically absurd colon of the United States.  Most unfortunate, really.  There are plenty of much less pleasant states here that the citizens could have fucked up.  Would anybody really mind if the Wyomans decided to flake out and make their state unattractive to sane of the world?
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 01:42:31 PM »
Barto:  Your writing never ceases to entertain. 

Do my state: California! 

Offline soundgarden

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 03:25:56 PM »
As a Brit, it is interesting to note that there is not that much united about the United States.  I'm guessing you guys must think long and hard about moves to certain states, depending on your personal tastes and stuff...

Well unlike El Barto and Omega; I do need to get along with the people. Nature alone doesn't cut it.  So for me I would think carefully of where I am going. 

It is even more of a concern for me since I am non-White.  I've had experiences of discrimination because of it in very conservative areas.  My uncle and I walked into a restaurant in upstate NY only to have bent-eyebrowed stares at us as we walked into the door.  It was clear we were unwelcomed.  (Interestingly, it was a Japanese restaurant; but I felt it would not be wise to mention the hypocrisy at that moment)

So yes, if I were to go to a conservative state; I would end up staying in the very urban cities.  But generally I stick to the coasts or lake regions of the US.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2012, 06:36:39 PM »
Culture has certainly had a difference in whether I move or not.   Though, as Barto said, if I could find a decent job I would probably try to suck it up.

My wife and I have toyed with the idea of moving to Texas.   LOVE the hill country area outside of San Antonio...and I love SA itself.   BEAUTIFUL area.    But the culture in Texas is quite different than the culture here in Washington.   I love that everyone is so much more OPEN in Texas (people tend to keep to themselves a bit more in WA) but I hate country music, I hate cowboy boots/hats, and I hate cheap beer.   When my wife was visiting her mother in law, she brought some "Fat Tire" beer to a Super Bowl party thinking she was being nice by bringing a really high class beer....they looked at her like she had a third eye, and no one even popped one.  They just stuck to their "Lone Star"...  ::)

There are wonderful things about the area...but I think I'm just too much of tie-dye zen hippie to ever fit in down there. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2012, 07:06:57 PM »
Culture has certainly had a difference in whether I move or not.   Though, as Barto said, if I could find a decent job I would probably try to suck it up.

My wife and I have toyed with the idea of moving to Texas.   LOVE the hill country area outside of San Antonio...and I love SA itself.   BEAUTIFUL area.    But the culture in Texas is quite different than the culture here in Washington.   I love that everyone is so much more OPEN in Texas (people tend to keep to themselves a bit more in WA) but I hate country music, I hate cowboy boots/hats, and I hate cheap beer.   When my wife was visiting her mother in law, she brought some "Fat Tire" beer to a Super Bowl party thinking she was being nice by bringing a really high class beer....they looked at her like she had a third eye, and no one even popped one.  They just stuck to their "Lone Star"...  ::)

There are wonderful things about the area...but I think I'm just too much of tie-dye zen hippie to ever fit in down there.
First and foremost, I'd never try to talk anybody into moving FROM Washington TO Texas.  Other way around by long shot.  However, I will point out that cowboys don't really exist around here, you'll hear more Tejano than country, and plenty of us drink good beer (although I don't care for much of Fat Tire's offerings).  If you really get out into the Styx, you'll certainly see a lot of that, but close to the cities you'll see very little of it.  Honestly, the only reason I'd specifically advise against moving here is the heat and lack of snow.  Outside of that, most of the failings of Texas apply to any other place as well, just in different ways.

But stay in Washington.  Seriously. 
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2012, 07:43:58 PM »
I've lived in the Seattle area since junior high except for 2 years of undergrad in Bellingham (which is not much different) plus the past 4.5 years in Houston for a post-graduate degree.

And I'd say the people I've been around have been more or less the same in "openness." In fact, I'd have stayed in Houston if my family were around there. I like both equally, although Seattle has seasons of weather which does tip the scale (Houston == a season of HOT and humid followed by one that's warm and humid).

Then why is it that some states allow it? 

Or is it just that some states have elected not to enforce it?

And while we're at it...can you make a law out of NOT enforcing a law?
States don't enforce federal laws. The federal officials enforce federal laws. In fact, the Arizona immigration law lawsuit by the feds is solely put on the fact that the state is trying to have its police enforce the federal law for the feds, which is arguably illegal.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2012, 08:04:30 PM »
States don't enforce federal laws. The federal officials enforce federal laws. In fact, the Arizona immigration law lawsuit by the feds is solely put on the fact that the state is trying to have its police enforce the federal law for the feds, which is arguably illegal.
[/quote]
That's an interesting contradiction.  In California, the federal government is insisting on enforcing it's own law because the state's law legitimizes a federal crime. At the same time in Arizona, the federal government is suing to prevent them from enforcing a state law because it deals with a federal law which the government refuses to enforce.  That really is pretty fucking hypocritical.   :lol
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2012, 10:27:45 PM »
Stupid typo creates the need for Off topic clarification.   My wife was visiting her MOTHER...which (of course) is *my* mother in law.  Duh...

Moving on...
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2012, 11:56:33 PM »
That's an interesting contradiction.  In California, the federal government is insisting on enforcing it's own law because the state's law legitimizes a federal crime. At the same time in Arizona, the federal government is suing to prevent them from enforcing a state law because it deals with a federal law which the government refuses to enforce.  That really is pretty fucking hypocritical.   :lol
Arizona may claim that the feds refuse to enforce it, but the feds claim to be enforcing it as much as they can. Although Arizona also claims that they're helping out where the feds are unable to do it.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2012, 01:10:53 PM »
The idea of states having their own laws is great. The country is huge and has a diverse population that is geographically separated. It makes sense for each region to define its own laws that are voted on by the people of that region. In reality it doesn't always make sense. You can find on the internet old state laws that are absolutely ridiculous.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2012, 01:59:24 PM »
The problem with states having different laws comes with neighboring states.   Like for instance, back in the days when some states had different drinking laws.   States with a 21 legal limit were getting really sick of dealing with the all the drunk 18 yr olds who hopped the border to go drinking next door. 
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 02:26:19 PM »
Using that reasoning, kids in northern Washington are all shitfaced because British Columbia's drinking age is 19 whereas it's 21 in WA. But in reality, they aren't and they weren't even when it was easier to get across the border when I lived up there (when we didn't need a passport). Sure, the kids go somewhere else to sometimes get drunk but to act like it's a massive problem is just strange to me. I'm not on a border now and college kids get just as drunk either way.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 02:31:57 PM »
Using that reasoning, kids in northern Washington are all shitfaced because British Columbia's drinking age is 19 whereas it's 21 in WA. But in reality, they aren't and they weren't even when it was easier to get across the border when I lived up there (when we didn't need a passport).

???  He didn't say they all are.  He just said that, as an example, that particular issue is (or was) a problem in some places.  Maybe it wasn't where you grew up, but I knew plenty of people who would tale advantages of similar differences in the law (in some states, it was a difference in county ordinances).
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2012, 02:42:45 PM »
Well, you also have to remember that crossing the Canadian border is NOT the same as crossing state lines...not by a LONG shot.   Even back in the days when you didn't need a passport or a "enhanced" licence to cross the border...you still had a check point that could pull you over for any reasonable suspicion.   The two things are not even comparable.

It is my understanding that back in the mid 70's when several states had a drinking age of 18, there were neighboring states that were having problems...especially the border towns.  I could be wrong.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 03:19:12 PM »
???  He didn't say they all are.  He just said that, as an example, that particular issue is (or was) a problem in some places.  Maybe it wasn't where you grew up, but I knew plenty of people who would tale advantages of similar differences in the law (in some states, it was a difference in county ordinances).
I never claimed he was talking about all the kids. I was exaggerating because of the fact that if there were a significant problem like he claimed, there'd be a significant increase in alcohol consumption. I know there are tales of people driving across the border and getting alcohol, but that doesn't make it a "problem." And just because lots of us know people who did that doesn't mean it was creating a public problem. Further, just because we've since changed our laws doesn't mean that the earlier ones were creating huge problems. And just because we've got stories of some older folks claiming it was a problem doesn't mean it really was one due to the fact that people exaggerate how bad things are...

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2012, 05:22:39 PM »
My guess would be if a neighboring state has lower legal limit, people would drive there, buy it, and take it back.


Offline jammindude

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2012, 07:14:43 PM »
My guess would be if a neighboring state has lower legal limit, people would drive there, buy it, and take it back.

And then you're technically a minor in possession.  But ya, if someone was smart about it they could probably just take it home and stay at home.   But how many people are smart?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2012, 08:36:56 PM »
I guess it depends how far the border is.

An MIP never stopped anyone though, hehe.

Offline Implode

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2012, 09:32:11 AM »
Back then, hopping the border to drink/buy alcohol was a normal occurance in my town. We live like 10 minutes from Wisconsin.

Offline Tis BOOLsheet

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2012, 11:35:50 PM »
This thread is more about what the states get to decide on for themselves. Why is it that it's up to states to decide how they want marriage to work, but when it comes to pot, the Feds get all over it? What is it that dictates this separation?

The main reason for it is the Commerce Clause in the Constitution. It allows the Fed to regulate commerce among the states-- drugs have a market. The framers probably never thought growing weed for yourself in your backyard could be regulated by Fed, but the Commerce Clause has been interpreted very broadly by the courts in general.

By the way, this same sex marriage thing is going to go to the Supreme Court sooner or later, and I have a feeling that they're going to say the states must offer same sex marriage. When that happens, the states won't get to say how they want it to work.

They should both be up to the states if you ask me.

Offline slycordinator

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2012, 11:50:36 PM »
While I know the Supreme Court has the authority to rule on the constitutionality of a law, but can they do so on an amendment to a state constitution? I'm no lawyer, so I'd have no idea how that would work, like if they said that the amendment passed in NC was in conflict with the US Constitution.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2012, 11:55:20 PM »
Federal Law is the Supreme Law of the Land. State Constitutions still have to abide by the Federal Constitution. Otherwise, the South would have just amended their constitutions post Civil War to make slavery legal.

Offline Tis BOOLsheet

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Re: Same sex marriage vs. marijuana
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2012, 12:03:00 AM »
While I know the Supreme Court has the authority to rule on the constitutionality of a law, but can they do so on an amendment to a state constitution? I'm no lawyer, so I'd have no idea how that would work, like if they said that the amendment passed in NC was in conflict with the US Constitution.

They can invalidate a state law that conflicts with the Constitution. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. If you're talking about the Bill of Rights, it gets a bit tricky. Originally the Framers didn't mean for the Bill of Rights to apply to the states. The Supreme Court in the early 19th century said the 14th amendment made it so that the Bill of Rights applied to the states. That's also probably incorrect, but that's the way it's been interpreted since then by just about everybody. Most of the controversial cases have to do with invalidating state laws that allegedly conflict with the Constitution-- gay sodomy rights, abortion, the death penalty.

The NC anti-gay marriage thing doesn't conflict with the Constitution's text, but the Supreme Court might find that it does since this whole "living constitution" crap.