Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114250 times)

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #735 on: May 26, 2012, 10:57:19 AM »
But as new people are born into said country, a few people might be born who are having this morality legally forced upon them.  Does the country/community still have a right to legally enforce the principles on which the community/country was founded?   

That's a very good question.  I'm not sure there's one answer that would apply to every situation; it would depend on the principle in question.  On the issue of gay marriage, I would say yes, they have the right to continue to enforce their principle.  And then if two homosexuals fall in love and want to get married, there's nothing stopping them from leaving the country and seeking happiness elsewhere - probably in their best interest anyway, really, getting out of this country where their lifestyle is so frowned upon. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #736 on: May 26, 2012, 02:58:23 PM »
Quote
So, in summary: I agree that everyone votes to their own morality, but I suggest that not everyone votes solely to their own morality. 

The idea that there "unalienable" rights is a moral claim. You're still voting along your moral conscience. You consider immoral to tell other people what morality to uphold. But: to tell other people to do the same is actually trying to tell them to obey your conceptions of morality. Some people consider it their moral obligation to help other people live morally, and thats always going to be their morality.

Tolerance intolerates intolerance.

If more people thought murder should be legal, would you still say the same thing? In medieval Japan, murdering someone in private was considered acceptable (of course, making a target of yourself) - doing it in public was a crime however. Does that sound good to you?

Offline Jaffa

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #737 on: May 26, 2012, 03:34:14 PM »
Quote
So, in summary: I agree that everyone votes to their own morality, but I suggest that not everyone votes solely to their own morality. 

The idea that there "unalienable" rights is a moral claim.

It actually isn't.  I mean, it is, but not on my part.  The writers of the Declaration of Independence made that moral claim; I am only referring to the established principles of the nation.  The country was founded on the notion that there are unalienable rights.  It logically follows that in determining the laws of the country, those unalienable rights should be considered.  It's not morality I'm considering, but the integrity of the nation. 

If more people thought murder should be legal, would you still say the same thing? In medieval Japan, murdering someone in private was considered acceptable (of course, making a target of yourself) - doing it in public was a crime however. Does that sound good to you?

Of course it doesn't sound good to me.  It sounds insane to me.  But if some people want to run a country that way, and everyone in the country agrees to live by those laws (accepting that on any given day someone might privately and lawfully kill them), then I'm not going to try to stop them.  I'll stay as far away from their country as possible, and I will voice my moral objections.  But if it ever comes down to a vote on whether or not we should declare war and forcefully change the ways of that country, my vote will be for staying out of it and letting them keep on being insane. 


Anyway, I fear we're getting off point.  The problem isn't voting toward one's own morality.  The problem is voting without due consideration of other people's morality.  It's thinking that one's own morality should supersede the beliefs and rights of other people. 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 03:50:14 PM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #738 on: May 26, 2012, 06:22:15 PM »
Quote
It actually isn't.  I mean, it is, but not on my part

You agreeing with the moral claim doesn't somehow mean your not taking a moral position, and you're actually claiming this moral position now. I'm open to an argument that this isn't, but so far I haven't seen one that deals with the issue at hand.

Quote
and I will voice my moral objections.

I really don't know how you can write this, and continue to argue the opposite. To me, it comes off as cognitive dissonance. You're arguing for what you consider moral, whilst denying that your doing so.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #739 on: June 06, 2012, 10:29:35 AM »
Didn't seem like we needed another gay marriage thread, but found this interesting:

https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/majority-americans-support-legalizing-same-sex-marriage-poll-101314711.html

Quote
A majority of Americans — 54% — say same-sex marriages should be legally recognized, while 42% are opposed, according to a CNN/ORC International Survey released Wednesday.

I knew that opponents and proponents of same sex marriage we're fairly equal for a little bit now, but I've never seen a study with a 12 point difference. I mean, that's well below the margin of error.


Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #740 on: June 06, 2012, 11:36:02 AM »
It's also ONE poll.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #741 on: June 06, 2012, 11:44:30 AM »
According to the article, the poll was conducted in legitimate statistical fashion.

Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #742 on: June 06, 2012, 11:45:34 AM »
Is there any reason to believe it's not a legitimate poll?  ???
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #743 on: June 06, 2012, 11:54:02 AM »
Is there any reason to believe it's not a legitimate poll?  ???

It was conducted by an orc.  They are reported to be miserable, crafty and vicious beings.

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #744 on: June 06, 2012, 11:55:33 AM »
It's also ONE poll.

Yep, you are correct.  One of many.  All of which came to pretty much the same conclusions.  And all of which have been conducted pretty recently.  Times are changing. 

Quote
A June 6 CNN/ORC International poll showed that 54% of Americans say same-sex marriages should be legally recognized, while 42% opposed. The poll also showed that 70% of Democrats and 60% of independent voters say same-sex marriages should be legal, while 72% of Republicans opposed.[13] A May 22 NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll showed that 54% of Americans would support a law in their state making same-sex marriage legal, with 40% opposed.[14]
A May 17-20 ABC News/Washington Post poll showed that 53% believe same-sex marriage should be legal, with only 39% opposed, a low-water mark for opposition in any national poll so far.[15][16]
A May 10 USA Today/Gallup Poll, taken one day after Barack Obama became the first sitting President to express support for same-sex marriage,[17] showed 51% of Americans agreed with the President's endorsement.[18] A May 8 Gallup Poll showed plurality support for same-sex marriage nationwide, with 50% in favor and 48% opposed.[19]
An April Pew Research Center poll showed support for same-sex marriage at 47%, while opposition fell to an all-time low of 43%.[20]
A March 7-10 ABC News/Washington Post poll found 52% of adults thought it should be legal for same-sex couples to get married, while 42% disagreed and 5% were unsure.[21] A March survey by the Public Religion Research Institute found 52% of Americans supported allowing same-sex couples to marry, while 44% opposed.[22]
A February 29 - March 3 NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll found 49% of adults supported allowing same-sex couples to marry, while 40% opposed.[23]

Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #745 on: June 06, 2012, 12:05:11 PM »
Is there any reason to believe it's not a legitimate poll?  ???

It was conducted by an orc.  They are reported to be miserable, crafty and vicious beings.

Are you being sardonic?

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #746 on: June 06, 2012, 12:14:09 PM »
Is there any reason to believe it's not a legitimate poll?  ???

It was conducted by an orc.  They are reported to be miserable, crafty and vicious beings.

Are you being sardonic?

I don't know.  Let me look it up.

EDIT:
sar·don·ic adj \sär-ˈdä-nik\
Definition of SARDONIC
: disdainfully or skeptically humorous : derisively mocking <a sardonic comment>

No, I don't think I was being sardonic.  A synonym for sardonic was "smart-alecky".....that seems more appropriate.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #747 on: June 06, 2012, 12:53:56 PM »
Maybe we should conduct a survey of the nation's orcs, just to be sure.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #748 on: June 06, 2012, 12:56:00 PM »
You guys are awful. Orcs are discriminated against daily in this country. Did you know that marriages between humans and orcs aren't even recognized in the US?

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #749 on: June 06, 2012, 01:08:30 PM »
You guys are awful. Orcs are discriminated against daily in this country. Did you know that marriages between humans and orcs aren't even recognized in the US?

Because it is against Natural Law, and is not in the original definition of Marriage.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #750 on: June 06, 2012, 01:27:23 PM »
 :rollin

Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #751 on: June 06, 2012, 01:33:27 PM »
I think it needs to be pointed out that more recent polls show a growing majority of people are in favor of orc/human marriages.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #752 on: June 06, 2012, 01:41:55 PM »
You guys are awful. Orcs are discriminated against daily in this country. Did you know that marriages between humans and orcs aren't even recognized in the US?

Because it is against Natural Law, and is not in the original definition of Marriage.

What are you, the alpha and Omega of philosophy?

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #753 on: June 06, 2012, 01:43:38 PM »
I think it needs to be pointed out that more recent polls show a growing majority of people are in favor of orc/human marriages.

That is irrelevant and moot..... you cannot "extend" the "right" for an Orc and Human  to "marry"  because marriage is inherently procreative and thus inherently intra species. To ask that "marriage" be "extended" for Orc/Human would be analogous to asking to repeal the Pythagorean theorem and would be a joke at best and a straightforward assault on the foundations of morality at worst.

You guys are awful. Orcs are discriminated against daily in this country. Did you know that marriages between humans and orcs aren't even recognized in the US?
Because it is against Natural Law, and is not in the original definition of Marriage.
What are you, the alpha and Omega of philosophy?

 ;)
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #754 on: June 06, 2012, 01:47:09 PM »
Quote
A June 6 CNN/ORC International poll showed that 54% of Americans say same-sex marriages should be legally recognized, while 42% opposed. The poll also showed that 70% of Democrats and 60% of independent voters say same-sex marriages should be legal, while 72% of Republicans opposed.[13] A May 22 NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll showed that 54% of Americans would support a law in their state making same-sex marriage legal, with 40% opposed.[14]
A May 17-20 ABC News/Washington Post poll showed that 53% believe same-sex marriage should be legal, with only 39% opposed, a low-water mark for opposition in any national poll so far.[15][16]
A May 10 USA Today/Gallup Poll, taken one day after Barack Obama became the first sitting President to express support for same-sex marriage,[17] showed 51% of Americans agreed with the President's endorsement.[18] A May 8 Gallup Poll showed plurality support for same-sex marriage nationwide, with 50% in favor and 48% opposed.[19]
An April Pew Research Center poll showed support for same-sex marriage at 47%, while opposition fell to an all-time low of 43%.[20]
A March 7-10 ABC News/Washington Post poll found 52% of adults thought it should be legal for same-sex couples to get married, while 42% disagreed and 5% were unsure.[21] A March survey by the Public Religion Research Institute found 52% of Americans supported allowing same-sex couples to marry, while 44% opposed.[22]
A February 29 - March 3 NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll found 49% of adults supported allowing same-sex couples to marry, while 40% opposed.[23]

Hadn't heard about some of those other ones. This is certainly an impressive change in the public attitude... not a single one of those polls had disapproval above approval.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #755 on: June 06, 2012, 02:26:54 PM »
^that's right and the way it's trending I wouldn't be surprised to see this issue in front of the SCOTUS within the next 15 or so years and I think you're going to see these gay marriage bans in most states get struck down as unconstitutional. 

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #756 on: June 06, 2012, 06:13:15 PM »
Next 15 years? There's two cases working their way through right now, that I've heard have a good chance of ending up at the Supreme Court. Unless the Supreme Court steps in, Prop 9 will be overturned.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #757 on: June 07, 2012, 06:30:54 AM »
Some might find this patronizing, but look what I found while YouTubing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=PSQSx3OCrXQ
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #758 on: June 07, 2012, 07:05:35 AM »
It was conducted by an orc.  They are reported to be miserable, crafty and vicious beings.

My ex-wife is an orc?  Wow.  Just when you think you know someone...

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #759 on: June 07, 2012, 08:51:54 AM »
Some might find this patronizing, but look what I found while YouTubing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=PSQSx3OCrXQ

I remember this video.  The school they mention at the end (BJU!) was like five miles away from Furman.  Its a crazy place.  They actually expelled a kid who was just about to graduate because he was watching Glee in a Starbucks.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #760 on: June 07, 2012, 09:06:35 AM »
Its a crazy place.  They actually expelled a kid who was just about to graduate because he was watching Glee in a Starbucks.

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #761 on: June 07, 2012, 09:53:23 AM »
Any guy that watches Glee should be expelled....and beat up.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #762 on: June 07, 2012, 10:12:17 AM »
Some might find this patronizing, but look what I found while YouTubing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=PSQSx3OCrXQ

I remember this video.  The school they mention at the end (BJU!) was like five miles away from Furman.  Its a crazy place.  They actually expelled a kid who was just about to graduate because he was watching Glee in a Starbucks.

Oh the irony of the abbreviation...is that school Blow Job University.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #763 on: June 21, 2012, 10:57:24 AM »
Sorry to resurrect this old, controversial thread, but I wanted to post this somewhere and it's not really worthy of its own. So:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/features/tribu/ijustworkhere/ct-met-gay-marriage-lawsuit-20120615,0,5385331.column

Basically, in Illinois (my state), various government officials have stepped up and admitted that our current ban on gay marriage violates the equal protection clause of the Illinois constitution. What this means is that the state's attorneys will no longer fight against lawsuits against the state regarding the ban, and these lawsuits - which, according to a different article, were recently combined into one big gay mega-lawsuit - are expected to go right to the courts, where the judges will probably say "yeah, you know what, you guys are right about the whole gay marriage thing".

Anyway, this is the first sign of great things to come in Illinois' future, and I'm really very excited about it.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #764 on: June 21, 2012, 11:08:17 AM »

Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #765 on: June 21, 2012, 11:46:55 AM »
 :tup

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #766 on: June 21, 2012, 02:14:37 PM »
Sorry to resurrect this old, controversial thread, but I wanted to post this somewhere and it's not really worthy of its own. So:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/features/tribu/ijustworkhere/ct-met-gay-marriage-lawsuit-20120615,0,5385331.column

Basically, in Illinois (my state), various government officials have stepped up and admitted that our current ban on gay marriage violates the equal protection clause of the Illinois constitution. What this means is that the state's attorneys will no longer fight against lawsuits against the state regarding the ban, and these lawsuits - which, according to a different article, were recently combined into one big gay mega-lawsuit - are expected to go right to the courts, where the judges will probably say "yeah, you know what, you guys are right about the whole gay marriage thing".

Anyway, this is the first sign of great things to come in Illinois' future, and I'm really very excited about it.

I think this is going to increasingly become an obvious Constitutional stance, which is a really good sign. Good things have happened in this country when we start applying the rights on the books to everyone.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #767 on: June 29, 2012, 01:48:25 PM »
Sorry to resurrect this old, controversial thread, but I wanted to post this somewhere and it's not really worthy of its own. So:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/features/tribu/ijustworkhere/ct-met-gay-marriage-lawsuit-20120615,0,5385331.column

Basically, in Illinois (my state), various government officials have stepped up and admitted that our current ban on gay marriage violates the equal protection clause of the Illinois constitution. What this means is that the state's attorneys will no longer fight against lawsuits against the state regarding the ban, and these lawsuits - which, according to a different article, were recently combined into one big gay mega-lawsuit - are expected to go right to the courts, where the judges will probably say "yeah, you know what, you guys are right about the whole gay marriage thing".

Anyway, this is the first sign of great things to come in Illinois' future, and I'm really very excited about it.

Wow, that's a pretty big step towards legalizing gay marriage in IL.  I have some gay friends who are going to be absolutely ecstatic about this.

Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #768 on: June 29, 2012, 09:32:26 PM »
Anarchy coming soon to Illinois. People will marry their dogs and the family unit will collapse and they'll come for our guns and society will tear apart at the seams.

Sarcasm aside, here's a very sad story I read about in the local paper. A church was forced to shut down after a pastor endorsed gay marriage and most of the congregation left: https://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/160884695.html

Even though Minnesota is regarded as "blue" state, I can testify to the fact that there's a LOT of ultra-conservatives and religious fundamentalists around here. The buggers are all politically active too.

Offline slycordinator

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #769 on: June 30, 2012, 02:47:11 PM »
It depends on which part of the state they're in, for the most part. I know Pekin used to have its High School mascot be "The Chinks" and even in the 70s there was a sign left over warning "niggers" to leave town at night or be shot (since it was one of many cities that previously had it illegal for blacks to be there at night). I still don't know why my cousin stays there with her kid being mixed...