Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114204 times)

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #700 on: May 25, 2012, 03:02:12 PM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

So lets legalize murder and rape? Lets get rid of all our rights? These are legislating a morality.
I think his position is that if you want to do something that's immoral, but doesn't affect anyone else, it should be legal. Murder and rape affect other people.

Its still a morality. When people say we should never legislate morality, it ignores the moralities we do legislate, and even take for granted.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #701 on: May 25, 2012, 03:03:21 PM »
He didn't say we should never vote on morality. Just that we shouldn't try to make the world adhere to our moral code.

Actually he didn't even say that. He just said that there are plenty of things he thinks are immoral but he's not about to try to ban them.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #702 on: May 25, 2012, 03:13:37 PM »
Quote
He just said that there are plenty of things he thinks are immoral but he's not about to try to ban them.

And that there are plenty of things he thinks are immoral that we should ban. We do try to make the world adhere to our moral code.

Myself for that matter too.


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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #703 on: May 25, 2012, 03:17:25 PM »
Quote
He just said that there are plenty of things he thinks are immoral but he's not about to try to ban them.

And that there are plenty of things he thinks are immoral that we should ban. We do try to make the world adhere to our moral code.

Myself for that matter too.

But it's not all or nothing. I think murder should be illegal, but not drugs. Yet I am vehemently against both. Just because we want SOME things we find immoral to be illegal doesn't mean we should try to shape the legal system around our morality. I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. It's not an all or nothing deal.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #704 on: May 25, 2012, 03:21:52 PM »
So, if someone wanted to keep gay marriage illegal, but agreed to decriminalize drugs even though they're against it, its suddenly fine?

You cant make a coherent and logical argument against gay marriage by saying its wrong to legislate morality, not without advocating complete anarchy.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #705 on: May 25, 2012, 03:26:25 PM »
So, if someone wanted to keep gay marriage illegal, but agreed to decriminalize drugs even though they're against it, its suddenly fine?

You cant make a coherent and logical argument against gay marriage by saying its wrong to legislate morality, not without advocating complete anarchy.

If you want to limit the argument to "legislating morality or not" then sure. But if you change it to legislating the morals that apply to harming others...then it's not so difficult.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #706 on: May 25, 2012, 03:31:01 PM »
If you want to limit the argument to "legislating morality or not" then sure.

And that's where the limit was being put, and is often put by people.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #707 on: May 25, 2012, 03:32:06 PM »
If you want to limit the argument to "legislating morality or not" then sure.

And that's where the limit was being put, and is often put by people.

Then what are arguing?
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Offline Sigz

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #708 on: May 25, 2012, 04:10:37 PM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

So lets legalize murder and rape? Lets get rid of all our rights? These are legislating a morality.

No, they're legislating things that harm society that most/all people happen to find immoral.
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #709 on: May 25, 2012, 04:27:19 PM »
We can define morality in the way of religion and global ethic.

For example, you can kill someone in the name of religion to float your religion. Muslims calls it "jihad" and it's not a sin. But in the law which many country have, that is called "murder".

Getting tattoo'd doesn't harm anybody, I have 5 tattoo and no one is offended by them.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #710 on: May 25, 2012, 05:33:56 PM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

So lets legalize murder and rape? Lets get rid of all our rights? These are legislating a morality.

No, they're legislating things that harm society that most/all people happen to find immoral.
Supposing most people think gay marriage is immoral, would you still support legalizing it?
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Online Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #711 on: May 25, 2012, 05:34:57 PM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

So lets legalize murder and rape? Lets get rid of all our rights? These are legislating a morality.

No, they're legislating things that harm society that most/all people happen to find immoral.
Supposing most people think gay marriage is immoral, would you still support legalizing it?

Yes. Because majority rules is a terrible idea with no logic behind it.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #712 on: May 25, 2012, 05:35:45 PM »
I'm just asking Sigz, since it sounds like he supports whatever is deemed right by society.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Online Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #713 on: May 25, 2012, 05:36:29 PM »
I'm just asking Sigz, since it sounds like he supports whatever is deemed right in society's eyes.

What? No he's not. He specifically included the whole "harming others" thing. Since gay marriage doesn't do that, I doubt he'll change his mind based on the majority view.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #714 on: May 25, 2012, 05:37:47 PM »
What if most of society thought that gay marriage was psychologically harmful to everyone in society?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #715 on: May 25, 2012, 05:39:04 PM »
What if most of society thought that gay marriage was psychologically harmful to everyone in society?


It's not. They'd have to prove it. And tons of legal things are psychologically harmful. Do you want to ban 95% of advertisement?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #716 on: May 25, 2012, 05:40:33 PM »
What if most of society thought that gay marriage was psychologically harmful to everyone in society?


It's not. They'd have to prove it. And tons of legal things are psychologically harmful. Do you want to ban 95% of advertisement?
I'm not actually saying it is psychologically harmful. I'm just saying, if society thinks a given action is harmful, and if society thinks a given action is immoral, then should that action be illegal?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Online Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #717 on: May 25, 2012, 05:41:42 PM »
No. Because what society thinks is pointless if they can't prove it. If society suddenly thought that breathing air was harmful, would it be? Of course not. Thinking things doesn't make it true.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #718 on: May 25, 2012, 05:42:23 PM »
What if society thinks they have proof?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #719 on: May 25, 2012, 05:44:15 PM »
What if society thinks they have proof?

Yea, I'm out. Sigz, good luck with that one.
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #720 on: May 25, 2012, 05:54:09 PM »
In the being homosexual discussion and morality in the society.

If I don't push my dick into your mouth it isn't your concern. A little bit harsh, I know but this is the summary of what we are talking about. Society is me.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #721 on: May 25, 2012, 05:58:53 PM »
Society is me.
There's a slight possibility that statement is a wee bit conceited.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Sigz

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #722 on: May 25, 2012, 06:04:12 PM »
What if society thinks they have proof?

I guess it depends on what constitutes proof. I mean, there are plenty of issues that have no clear answer about what the best solution is for society (I wouldn't put gay marriage under that heading of course). Obviously for some issues there are valid arguments to be made for both sides, and that's why we have a democracy (or close to it).

However, I wouldn't say that just because the majority believes something means it's true or even a valid concern, and it certainly doesn't mean action should be taken on it. Take, for example, fan death. There's basically no evidence to support it in any way, shape, or form, but it's still a widespread belief.
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #723 on: May 25, 2012, 06:04:47 PM »
It's about perspective. For me it's almost impossible to educe "conceited" meaning from what I said. You are as well a part of society. So it's you.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #724 on: May 25, 2012, 06:05:56 PM »
What if society thinks they have proof?

I guess it depends on what constitutes proof. I mean, there are plenty of issues that have no clear answer about what the best solution is for society (I wouldn't put gay marriage under that heading of course). Obviously for some issues there are valid arguments to be made for both sides, and that's why we have a democracy (or close to it).

However, I wouldn't say that just because the majority believes something means it's true or even a valid concern, and it certainly doesn't mean action should be taken on it. Take, for example, fan death. There's basically no evidence to support it in any way, shape, or form, but it's still a widespread belief.
Gotcha.

It's about perspective. For me it's almost impossible to educe "conceited" meaning from what I said. You are as well a part of society. So it's you.
But it's not all about you.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #725 on: May 25, 2012, 06:10:08 PM »
And it's not all about you either but you want everything how you please. That's not how things work.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #726 on: May 25, 2012, 06:13:56 PM »
And it's not all about you either but you want everything how you please. That's not how things work.
Not sure what you mean. It's not about me either.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #727 on: May 25, 2012, 06:27:53 PM »
That's a relief.  :)

On the other hand, here at Turkey, some of LGBT organizations were aware of what happened at USA about this matter and blame the Americans and their political path. Like we have all rights as homosexuals at Turkey.  :lol That's really ironic. We were at a meeting yesterday, we talked about this matter as well and I mentioned some of yours thought in this thread and discussed, of course no name given. The result is the same. We must separate the personal beliefs based on religions and personal rights that we naturally have.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #728 on: May 25, 2012, 07:44:52 PM »
So, let me ask this.  And I'll remove it one degree so I can be clear that we are hypothesizing here. 

Let's say that a group of people want to live somewhere where they will never have to be exposed to wife swapping in any way, shape or form.   Do *they* have a right to not have any exposure to it if they don't want it around?     If they are of the opinion that wife swapping within a community degrades said community...do they have rights?   If they moved somewhere and formed their own country...would they have the right to enforce that on their community as that community grew?  Would they have the right to make standards that say, "these are OUR standards...if you want different standards, go somewhere else."

I'm not asking anyone to agree with it...not sure I do or not....this is only meant to be an exercise in thought.   Does that group of people have rights too...if they have collectively decided they don't want something around, and they've gone through the trouble of removing themselves from "the problem"...do they have a right to keep the standards of where they live whether we agree or not?
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #729 on: May 25, 2012, 07:51:04 PM »
Actually I felt that that question is very relevant to the current topic.    But IDK...should it have its own thread?  ???
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Offline robwebster

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #730 on: May 25, 2012, 08:16:22 PM »
Basically on your side WRT majority rule not always being a brilliant thing, Adami, but...
What if most of society thought that gay marriage was psychologically harmful to everyone in society?


It's not. They'd have to prove it. And tons of legal things are psychologically harmful. Do you want to ban 95% of advertisement?
...kind of, yeah!


Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #731 on: May 25, 2012, 10:11:07 PM »
Yes. Because majority rules is a terrible idea with no logic behind it.

See, statements like this are just silly. I know what you're going for, but you just said all democracy is a bad idea.

Everyone votes their moral conscience, everyone. Its just that a proper liberal moral conscious says live and let live, that if what you do doesn't "harm" (cause its a loose definition of harm), than you don't care. But its still a moral claim to say this, its still majority rule to tell people not to murder someone. That you find this obvious doesn't change this simple fact.

My argument is that these objections are impotent. Telling someone opposed to gay marriage to not vote their moral conscious is hypocritical and prevents the discussion from moving forward. Instead, argue how telling other people how to live their lives is immoral. That can actually move the discussion, that can actually have results.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #732 on: May 25, 2012, 10:26:04 PM »
1. I apologize for my poor grammar. Not sure if you read it the right way, but what I meant to say was "Majority rules is a terrible idea when the choices being made have no logic behind them"

2. I actually am against democracy. I consider it a bad idea for government.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #733 on: May 26, 2012, 03:50:24 AM »
So, let me ask this.  And I'll remove it one degree so I can be clear that we are hypothesizing here. 

Let's say that a group of people want to live somewhere where they will never have to be exposed to wife swapping in any way, shape or form.   Do *they* have a right to not have any exposure to it if they don't want it around?     If they are of the opinion that wife swapping within a community degrades said community...do they have rights?   If they moved somewhere and formed their own country...would they have the right to enforce that on their community as that community grew?  Would they have the right to make standards that say, "these are OUR standards...if you want different standards, go somewhere else."

I'm not asking anyone to agree with it...not sure I do or not....this is only meant to be an exercise in thought.   Does that group of people have rights too...if they have collectively decided they don't want something around, and they've gone through the trouble of removing themselves from "the problem"...do they have a right to keep the standards of where they live whether we agree or not?

I wouldn't have a problem with something like this.  I mean, I certainly wouldn't like these people, but I would respect their right to run their own country however they wanted.  If a group of like-minded individuals want to form a country where homosexuality is forbidden, then homosexuals simply shouldn't move to that country.  Likewise, if a group of like-minded individuals want to form a country where heterosexuality is forbidden, then heterosexuals simply shouldn't move to that country.  But this isn't a question specific to gay rights or anything else.  If a group of people want to form a country where national law dictates that no citizen is allowed to live past the age of 21, I have no real problem with that, either.  If a group of people set out to form a society based on specific principles, and everyone in that society shares those same principles, then they absolutely should have the right to enforce those principles. 

My problem is when people who don't share a principle are nevertheless legally forced to abide by that principle. 

Everyone votes their moral conscience, everyone. Its just that a proper liberal moral conscious says live and let live, that if what you do doesn't "harm" (cause its a loose definition of harm), than you don't care. But its still a moral claim to say this, its still majority rule to tell people not to murder someone. That you find this obvious doesn't change this simple fact.

In the case of murder, I'd say it is more 'acceptable' to vote on moral conscience, because basically everyone shares the same moral conscience on the issue of murder.  If you were to put it to vote - 'should first-degree murder be legalized?' - I'd be willing to bet that you'd get very few 'yes' votes.  Because as a general rule, most people consider murder immoral.  Therefore, there is no conflict of moral conscience.

When there is a conflict of moral conscience, then I would say it is wise to not vote your moral conscience.  If you vote your moral conscience while being aware that someone else's moral conscience differs from your own, then you are effectively voting to oppress the moral consciences of other people.  Which, I would argue, is wrong.  Instead, when there is a conflict, I would encourage people to look outside their morality into the realm of logic.  For instance, comparing gay marriage and murder.  Well, I look at the Declaration of Independence of the United States.  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  I pose the logical question: does murder interfere with any of those unalienable rights?  Well, yes, it quite obviously does, because if someone kills you, you've obviously been robbed of your right to life.  Does gay marriage interfere with anyone's unalienable rights?  I don't see how.  Therefore, I decide that murder is logically 'worse' than gay marriage.  This decision is independent from my own moral conscience - I have looked to logic to answer the question for me, and the answer seems pretty obvious.

So, in summary: I agree that everyone votes to their own morality, but I suggest that not everyone votes solely to their own morality. 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 04:16:25 AM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #734 on: May 26, 2012, 09:39:27 AM »
So, let me ask this.  And I'll remove it one degree so I can be clear that we are hypothesizing here. 

Let's say that a group of people want to live somewhere where they will never have to be exposed to wife swapping in any way, shape or form.   Do *they* have a right to not have any exposure to it if they don't want it around?     If they are of the opinion that wife swapping within a community degrades said community...do they have rights?   If they moved somewhere and formed their own country...would they have the right to enforce that on their community as that community grew?  Would they have the right to make standards that say, "these are OUR standards...if you want different standards, go somewhere else."

I'm not asking anyone to agree with it...not sure I do or not....this is only meant to be an exercise in thought.   Does that group of people have rights too...if they have collectively decided they don't want something around, and they've gone through the trouble of removing themselves from "the problem"...do they have a right to keep the standards of where they live whether we agree or not?

I wouldn't have a problem with something like this.  I mean, I certainly wouldn't like these people, but I would respect their right to run their own country however they wanted.  If a group of like-minded individuals want to form a country where homosexuality is forbidden, then homosexuals simply shouldn't move to that country.  Likewise, if a group of like-minded individuals want to form a country where heterosexuality is forbidden, then heterosexuals simply shouldn't move to that country.  But this isn't a question specific to gay rights or anything else.  If a group of people want to form a country where national law dictates that no citizen is allowed to live past the age of 21, I have no real problem with that, either.  If a group of people set out to form a society based on specific principles, and everyone in that society shares those same principles, then they absolutely should have the right to enforce those principles. 

My problem is when people who don't share a principle are nevertheless legally forced to abide by that principle. 


But as new people are born into said country, a few people might be born who are having this morality legally forced upon them.  Does the country/community still have a right to legally enforce the principles on which the community/country was founded?   

I don't have a horse in this race...I'm strictly debating the idea of communal rights vs. individual rights.   I agree that the majority is not always right...as a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that the majority IS WRONG a vast majority of the time.    But I also think that communal rights can not be simply thrown out the window every time an individual disagrees.    Nothing would *ever* be accomplished. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude