Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114256 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #665 on: May 22, 2012, 04:24:47 PM »
I think John 8:7 is just as clear as it needs to be. Jesus stopped a stoning for sexual misconduct that was in progress.

I agree that it was a pretty powerful example.

But more than that, Jesus told that the Jewish law would pass away once he fullfilled what he had come to do.  And when you read through what the apostles taught and write in Acts and the letters in the new testament, while they carry over some things from the law, they are also pretty clear that Christians are not Jews and the Jewish law is not what Christians are to follow.  They were specific commands for a specific people, just as "leave your home and go to a place I will show you" was a specific command for Abraham and not all followers of God.
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Offline Nick

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #666 on: May 22, 2012, 05:51:14 PM »
Okay, you know far more than me beyond the actual main text, so I suppose the next question is, is it reasonable that Jews hate homosexuals on the basis of the old testament?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #667 on: May 22, 2012, 05:52:49 PM »
I still don't get why God created a morality for one people, and then decided to abandon it several thousand years later.

Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #668 on: May 22, 2012, 06:38:31 PM »
Okay, you know far more than me beyond the actual main text, so I suppose the next question is, is it reasonable that Jews hate homosexuals on the basis of the old testament?

I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to hate homosexuals.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #669 on: May 22, 2012, 06:55:05 PM »
^^^^that exactly!

a couple of things about John 8, as well, is the fact that the law required that both be stoned and they only brought the woman (because it was a test), and John 8 is one of two sections in NT that is doubtful since it isn't found in earliest mss

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #670 on: May 22, 2012, 06:58:28 PM »
Okay, you know far more than me beyond the actual main text, so I suppose the next question is, is it reasonable that Jews hate homosexuals on the basis of the old testament?

I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to hate homosexuals.

Not even if it's clearly laid out in their scripture? A lot of people think that a lot of what Christianity lays out is unreasonable for anyone, but many Christians will point to the bible and use it to defend themselves.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #671 on: May 22, 2012, 07:00:11 PM »
I still don't get why God created a morality for one people, and then decided to abandon it several thousand years later.

I would dispute "created a morality"...that was not the point of the Mosaic Law.   As a matter of fact (and I pointed this out somewhere else in P/R forum) Jesus pointed to one example (namely divorce) where God chose to regulate (rather than completely correct) something he didn't agree with.   The law was "a tutor" leading them to Christ.   It was to show them that it was impossible for them to be perfect...it was to show them that they NEEDED to be rescued.  It was to show them just how far away from God's standards they were....EVEN WITH the concessions he made.   Christ *RE-instituted* God's original purpose for marriage that he intended when he first married Adam and Eve.   
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #672 on: May 22, 2012, 08:01:15 PM »
Okay, you know far more than me beyond the actual main text, so I suppose the next question is, is it reasonable that Jews hate homosexuals on the basis of the old testament?

I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to hate homosexuals.

Not even if it's clearly laid out in their scripture?

Homosexuality was something that was laid out as one of many capitol offenses under the Jewish legal system, but even under that system, there is NOTHING in Jewish scripture that condones hatred toward those who may have been convicted. 
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #673 on: May 22, 2012, 08:02:01 PM »
Okay, you know far more than me beyond the actual main text, so I suppose the next question is, is it reasonable that Jews hate homosexuals on the basis of the old testament?

I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to hate homosexuals.

Not even if it's clearly laid out in their scripture? A lot of people think that a lot of what Christianity lays out is unreasonable for anyone, but many Christians will point to the bible and use it to defend themselves.

I realize you weren't addressing me, but for what it's worth, I can understand why someone following the Old Testament would hate homosexuals.  It is sensible for a person to consider something an abomination if the God that person worships has specifically named that thing an abomination. 

That being said, I personally cannot respect anyone who hates just because a book tells them to.  This isn't a debate point; I just feel the need to say it because I felt dirty after typing the first paragraph.

But here's some other food for thought: if the rule in Leviticus is 'kill the gays', then is outlawing gay marriage really 'sticking to one's principles'?  I mean, if this pastor was running around with a machine gun killing all the homosexual people he sees, I could kind of understand the 'at least he's living by his beliefs' angle of defense.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd think he was a lunatic and call for his imprisonment, but I would at least understand the argument you're making, because then he would at least be doing as the Bible tells him to.  Sticking them in an electric fence and feeding them until they die of old age actually seems kind of opposite to the intent of Leviticus 20:13. 

Same goes with gay marriage.  How can you ban gay marriage based on the Bible when what the Bible actually says is that they must be put to death?  To fully enforce the Old Testament, we would have to make it law that homosexuality is a crime to be punished by the death penalty.  Anything less than that is not enforcing the Old Testament at all.  And it's certainly not fair to the gays.  So if it's not fair on a humanitarian level and it's not an enforcement of the Bible, what exactly is it?  If it's a compromise, it's a compromise in no one's best interest.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 08:26:16 PM by Jaffa »
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #674 on: May 22, 2012, 08:27:18 PM »
If God commands to the hetero people to kill homosexuals there is something we must think about, considering God creates them how they are and then blame them for how they are? It doesn't make sense at all.

God's love is supposed to be for everyone even they are going wrong path for some reasons. As a deist, that's my thought.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #675 on: May 22, 2012, 11:13:01 PM »
I still don't get why God created a morality for one people, and then decided to abandon it several thousand years later.

I would dispute "created a morality"...that was not the point of the Mosaic Law.   As a matter of fact (and I pointed this out somewhere else in P/R forum) Jesus pointed to one example (namely divorce) where God chose to regulate (rather than completely correct) something he didn't agree with.   The law was "a tutor" leading them to Christ.   It was to show them that it was impossible for them to be perfect...it was to show them that they NEEDED to be rescued.  It was to show them just how far away from God's standards they were....EVEN WITH the concessions he made.   Christ *RE-instituted* God's original purpose for marriage that he intended when he first married Adam and Eve.

If the Old Testament and the New Testament didn't differ regarding morality, than why is this discussion being had? What is Christ reinstating?

It just seems so easily contrived, to me. Earlier in the thread, you asked, what is more believable, that the universe came into existence by "chance," or by divine intervention. I now ask you: what's more believable, that God did everything as you said above - and I fail to see how you lead or tutor someone towards Christ, by telling them to do the exact opposite and let it stand for thousands of years, letting thousands of people fall prey to said morality - or that separate humans, at separate times, put forward theological works regarding what Morality is, or should be?


Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #676 on: May 22, 2012, 11:32:25 PM »
If God commands to the hetero people to kill homosexuals there is something we must think about, considering God creates them how they are and then blame them for how they are? It doesn't make sense at all.

God's love is supposed to be for everyone even they are going wrong path for some reasons. As a deist, that's my thought.

But the Bible *DOES NOT* teach that God creates us the way we are...  I honestly don't know where that idea even comes from.  The whole idea of Christianity is that *we are all born imperfect*...Adam lost perfection by rebelling, and we have all been imperfect ever since.  NO ONE is immune.   Christ (a perfect man) died to buy back what Adam (a perfect man) lost.     So no...God doesn't create any of us the way we are.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #677 on: May 22, 2012, 11:44:36 PM »
I still don't get why God created a morality for one people, and then decided to abandon it several thousand years later.

I would dispute "created a morality"...that was not the point of the Mosaic Law.   As a matter of fact (and I pointed this out somewhere else in P/R forum) Jesus pointed to one example (namely divorce) where God chose to regulate (rather than completely correct) something he didn't agree with.   The law was "a tutor" leading them to Christ.   It was to show them that it was impossible for them to be perfect...it was to show them that they NEEDED to be rescued.  It was to show them just how far away from God's standards they were....EVEN WITH the concessions he made.   Christ *RE-instituted* God's original purpose for marriage that he intended when he first married Adam and Eve.

If the Old Testament and the New Testament didn't differ regarding morality, than why is this discussion being had? What is Christ reinstating?

It just seems so easily contrived, to me. Earlier in the thread, you asked, what is more believable, that the universe came into existence by "chance," or by divine intervention. I now ask you: what's more believable, that God did everything as you said above - and I fail to see how you lead or tutor someone towards Christ, by telling them to do the exact opposite and let it stand for thousands of years, letting thousands of people fall prey to said morality - or that separate humans, at separate times, put forward theological works regarding what Morality is, or should be?

It wasn't the "EXACT OPPOSITE".   You're being overly dramatic.   

God has a certain set of moral standards....so he sets up a set of laws for the nation of Israel to be protected and kept separate from things the nations around them were practicing.  (and they were executed because these practices had become so ingrained in their society...they had become so callous to wrongdoing...that there was no room for redemption any more)   So the law was to keep them morally clean from God's standpoint...and to regulate (rather than fully correct) some other things out of regard for the fact that he already knew they were going to be too "stiff necked" (his words in several places of the OT) to follow the law as it was.   And he was right.   But he also needed a bloodline to the Christ...who was going to save the entire world.   And he needed to keep the nation as clean as possible until that nation produced the Messiah.    When they became even worse than the nations he had destroyed, he punished them by allowing Babylon to destroy them...but he kept the bloodline going for the sake of bringing his Son into the world.   

The whole thing (the law, the nation of Israel, the priests, the temple) was ALL supposed to be pointing them to the Christ.   But then they executed him as a traitor.   So since the nation had now produced the Messiah that was needed to save the world...he no longer had to tolerate their constant rebellion, so he removed his protection from them.    Much as we, as parents, might love a child very much...but at a certain point, if they show themselves incorrigibly rebellious, we are forced to kick them out of the house and remove our protection from them.   

ALL OF THIS is what the Mosaic Law was designed to do.   They show God's standards on certain moral issues, and how he regulated the nation of Israel and tried his best to keep a very rebellious nation as clean as possible until it produced the Messiah.    From that point on, nationality no longer mattered.   ANYONE (Jew, Greek, Oriental...whatever) could all be saved by following the example of Christ in their life course.   
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #678 on: May 22, 2012, 11:49:57 PM »
Quote
It wasn't the "EXACT OPPOSITE".   You're being overly dramatic.   

Well, what do you call saying homosexuals should be killed, and saying they shouldn't be killed, or even hated?

Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #679 on: May 22, 2012, 11:50:54 PM »
If God commands to the hetero people to kill homosexuals there is something we must think about, considering God creates them how they are and then blame them for how they are? It doesn't make sense at all.

God's love is supposed to be for everyone even they are going wrong path for some reasons. As a deist, that's my thought.

But the Bible *DOES NOT* teach that God creates us the way we are...  I honestly don't know where that idea even comes from.  The whole idea of Christianity is that *we are all born imperfect*...Adam lost perfection by rebelling, and we have all been imperfect ever since.  NO ONE is immune.   Christ (a perfect man) died to buy back what Adam (a perfect man) lost.     So no...God doesn't create any of us the way we are.

People do wrong things, people do many things against what the religions say, so according to that those people must be killed in the name of religion?

We as a sinner or believer have two sides inside of us, bad and good. In my view this is how we were created. Our decisions may make us far from what God wants us to be but even from the view of Christanity, Islam or others God is merciful. In the sense of religion morality there is NO God that can command to kill whose fail to do things how they must be.

But note that please, even I mention something based on religions I'm not believing any religion but I have to see something from that side to tell what people think globally. To sum up, the decisions make us what we are but these are given by God, to choose against his will won't lead us to death in any circumstances, at least in this world.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #680 on: May 23, 2012, 12:21:37 AM »
Quote
It wasn't the "EXACT OPPOSITE".   You're being overly dramatic.   

Well, what do you call saying homosexuals should be killed, and saying they shouldn't be killed, or even hated?

The law was keeping the nation morally clean from God's standpoint.   Because Christ's sacrifice opened up the way for anyone to be forgiven of anything (provided that they change their ways once they learn of God's standards) *WE* are not the judges....that is why Christians are told to *take no action*...but to show love to all in an attempt to save as many as possible, because we don't know what's really in someone's heart...and many of us were living a lifestyle just as bad or worse.

But the Bible also states that by the end of all things...Jesus is coming as an executioner of all who absolutely positively will not change their ways.   So in reality, Christ's return in Revelation is not terribly different from the moral standards in the OT....just that it's Jesus and the angels taking the action and not people. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #681 on: May 23, 2012, 04:27:12 AM »
lol Maiden.  That town is in the same county where I was born and raised.

Incidentally, I was just asked to say a prayer at a commitment ceremony for a lesbian couple I know.  I was highly honored.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #682 on: May 23, 2012, 08:49:29 AM »
The last time someone wanted to take all the people he didn't like, corral them into little miniature cities, with the intent that they would all die off within a few years, the rest of the world did not look too kindly upon it.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #683 on: May 23, 2012, 09:18:39 AM »
The last time someone wanted to take all the people he didn't like, corral them into little miniature cities, with the intent that they would all die off within a few years, the rest of the world did not look too kindly upon it.


Offline igotrhythm

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #684 on: May 25, 2012, 07:10:42 AM »
I don't get it. Why is everyone talking about the Bible? This is an issue of United States law, so the Bible is completely irrelevant to this discussion, just like the Bhagavad Gita and the Qur'an are irrelevant to this discussion.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #685 on: May 25, 2012, 09:05:53 AM »
It is very relevant in this discussion.  The people vote on the laws.  The people vote based on their own reasons.  Those reasons can, and usually are, based on their religious and moral values.  NC is in the bible belt, so it stands to reason many NC residents are christians and use the bible as a moral guide.  So it becomes very relevant to the discussuion.

I dont believe however that "majority rules" is always appropriate.  If the law discriminates, it should be reversed.
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Offline igotrhythm

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #686 on: May 25, 2012, 09:09:01 AM »
That's fine to have your own religious and moral code, if it's just your religious and moral code. The moment you start trying to force others to follow your morals by law is the moment you become a piece of shit and also a terrible citizen.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #687 on: May 25, 2012, 09:18:02 AM »
That's fine to have your own religious and moral code, if it's just your religious and moral code. The moment you start trying to force others to follow your morals by law is the moment you become a piece of shit and also a terrible citizen.

I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience.  Thats America and Democracy, and I have no problem with that.  But we need to rely on, and make sure the government and the law protects the minority from discrimination, regardless of how it comes about....religious morals, greed, fear, etc.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #688 on: May 25, 2012, 09:18:43 AM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #689 on: May 25, 2012, 09:25:21 AM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

That is your pergative, and for my personal view, I agree.  But I wont fault anyone from voting their moral conscience.  I may vehemently disagree with their position, but that really is their right.  That is what this country is all about, right?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 09:35:19 AM by eric42434224 »
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #690 on: May 25, 2012, 09:50:33 AM »
Is it? I would think protecting each person's rights is more important than allowing the populace to legislate their morality. If it's not affecting anyone but the involved parties (like gay marriage), why should it be okay to legislate against it based on someone's morality?
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #691 on: May 25, 2012, 09:53:40 AM »
Is it? I would think protecting each person's rights is more important than allowing the populace to legislate their morality. If it's not affecting anyone but the involved parties (like gay marriage), why should it be okay to legislate against it based on someone's morality?

No.  It is ok to try to legislate their morality.  It is morality that freed the slaves, and allowed women to vote.  It is not ok to actually legislate discrimination, and the govt needs to be the backstop to make sure that doesnt happen.
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #692 on: May 25, 2012, 09:53:48 AM »
Since there are many immoral things coming from religions I think people just suit themselves.

You can do tattoo, piercing all over your body but no homo!
You can marry more than one woman but no homo!
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #693 on: May 25, 2012, 12:29:21 PM »
Actually...and I admit it's OT but...Lev 19:28 bans tattoos as well.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #694 on: May 25, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »
^Yes, that's the point. Many Christians pick and choose which parts of The Bible to follow.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #695 on: May 25, 2012, 12:30:38 PM »
Actually...and I admit it's OT but...Lev 19:28 bans tattoos as well.

Which is why I will never get a tattoo. Not that I even believe in god, but stuff like that has been drilled into my head too much, it's stuck.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #696 on: May 25, 2012, 12:37:33 PM »
the biblical precedent of marriage being between man and woman (ie. Adam and Eve) is from the beginning.  When Moses was given the law, it was a law that was only for the Jewish people (ie. tattoos, sacrifices, capital punishment occasions, etc). 
Since America is not a jewish nation and is not a theocracy, there is no reason to appeal to the laws of Moses for our nation's laws.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #697 on: May 25, 2012, 02:54:35 PM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

So lets legalize murder and rape? Lets get rid of all our rights? These are legislating a morality.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #698 on: May 25, 2012, 02:57:08 PM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

So lets legalize murder and rape? Lets get rid of all our rights? These are legislating a morality.
I think his position is that if you want to do something that's immoral, but doesn't affect anyone else, it should be legal. Murder and rape affect other people.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #699 on: May 25, 2012, 02:58:33 PM »
I agree, but one does, and should, vote their moral conscience. 

Why? There are plenty of things I think are immoral but I'm not about to try to ban them.

So lets legalize murder and rape? Lets get rid of all our rights? These are legislating a morality.
I think his position is that if you want to do something that's immoral, but doesn't affect anyone else, it should be legal. Murder and rape affect other people.

Exactly (I assume). I am very much against divorce, but I would never vote to ban it. I am also against white people, yet I'd never vote to murder all of them (I'd keep a few of the women alive).
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