Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114209 times)

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Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #595 on: May 17, 2012, 09:54:49 PM »
If you are gay, you are gay.  You might fuck a chick because you want to fit in with your fraternity borthers, but you will be closing your eyes, pretending you are butt banging Jonny's hairy ass.

This is why we have homophobic homosexuals. Believe me, they worse than homophobics. This is actually the thing that H should have supposed to mean. A human lives his/her fake life just because upbringing, society or religion force to do like that. We suppose to fit in nature but it seems we are made not to.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #596 on: May 17, 2012, 09:56:25 PM »
Your nature is not heavily influenced by society/experiences, etc.
You're serious.

Just look around. Think about all the things people care so much about. There is nothing in our nature to tell us that having straight white teeth is important. There's nothing in our nature that tells us we need to make money. There's nothing that tells women that they ought to straight iron their hair because it's more appealing that way. Our desires for these things are learned.

Yes, serious...
That is behavoir, not someones innate nature.  You cant equate a hair style to someones sexual orientation.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #597 on: May 17, 2012, 09:59:06 PM »
Our behavior is part of our nature, just like the behavior of ticking is part of a the nature of a clock.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #598 on: May 17, 2012, 10:03:02 PM »
So bosk, is it a Christians responsibility to make sure other people are acting morally?

That is sort of a loaded, multifaceted question, as I understand it.  Here is my multi-part answer:

It is definitely a Christian's responsibility to, as gently as possible, point out to those who are not acting morally that they are not acting morally.  Beyond that, I do not believe it is a Christian's responsbility to "make sure" people are acting morally, and I do not believe it is a Christian's business to try, for the most part (excluding, for example, making sure your kids do right when you are raising them).

However, tying your question back to the question of the N.C. amendment and other anti-gay marriage laws, I do not see that as Christians "making sure others are acting morally."  I could be dead wrong, but the way I see it, by putting it to a vote, the government is essentially asking everybody, Christian or not, what we think on the issue.  Because we are given a voice on the subject, I think it is perfectly appropriate to vote on it as a Christian.  And going back to my opinion on the subject, which I posted earlier in the thread, I do not believe the government should be about granting special privileged status to conduct that is not moral.  Therefore, I believe voting on laws the clarify that "marriage" should not be extended to homosexual relationships is approriate.  Again, I may be completely misunderstanding what the proper role of Christians in politics should be, but that's my take on it.  And, as I also mentioned earlier in the thread, if it were legal in all 50 states tomorrow, okay.  Others who also have the right to use their votes who hold a different opinion than I do would be in the majority, so so be it if that's the case.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #599 on: May 17, 2012, 10:03:24 PM »
Our behavior is part of our nature, just like the behavior of ticking is part of a the nature of a clock.

But our nature may be something like:
Being Gay
Needing security
Wants social connection and approval

Our Bevavoir, influenced by society/environment can be:
Being straight in appearance only due to social pressure
Being a work a holic to earn lots of money to be secure
Straigtening hair to fit in with the in croewd

Behavoir changes, but nature wont.  Big difference.


Our behavior is part of our nature, just like the behavior of ticking is part of a the nature of a clock.

The clock can tick loudly, or softly.  It may be digital with no ticking at all.  Behavoir.  But its nature is to tell time.  The changes in behavoir dont change its nature.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:09:43 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #600 on: May 17, 2012, 10:04:16 PM »
This is why we have homophobic homosexuals.

Oh, wow.  I never realized that, but that makes perfect sense now that you mention it. 
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #601 on: May 17, 2012, 10:06:38 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #602 on: May 17, 2012, 10:09:07 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #603 on: May 17, 2012, 10:10:58 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?
Too easy. Eating more calories than you burn makes you gain weight.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #604 on: May 17, 2012, 10:11:10 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?

The addition of a bloody handprint [external influence] transforms what is otherwise merely a volleyball by nature into Wilson.  For example.
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #605 on: May 17, 2012, 10:15:56 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Clearly you have failed to see what insticts and behavior are. Nature can not be affected and change. Behaviours can.

The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?
Too easy. Eating more calories than you burn makes you gain weight.

Eating is a nature thing and instict to survive but there is something can be called "eating habit" which can be changed.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #606 on: May 17, 2012, 10:16:46 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?
Too easy. Eating more calories than you burn makes you gain weight.

Gaining weight is changing a persons nature?
We are WAY off on what a persons nature means
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #607 on: May 17, 2012, 10:17:16 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?

The addition of a bloody handprint [external influence] transforms what is otherwise merely a volleyball by nature into Wilson.  For example.

I concede defeat. :hefdaddy
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rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #608 on: May 17, 2012, 10:37:38 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?
Too easy. Eating more calories than you burn makes you gain weight.

Gaining weight is changing a persons nature?
We are WAY off on what a persons nature means

Apparently. I think an organism's nature is, well, the organism itself.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #609 on: May 17, 2012, 10:40:51 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?
Too easy. Eating more calories than you burn makes you gain weight.

Gaining weight is changing a persons nature?
We are WAY off on what a persons nature means

Apparently. I think an organism's nature is, well, the organism itself.

A persons nature is their inborn character, innate disposition, or inherent tendencies.
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rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #610 on: May 17, 2012, 10:42:10 PM »
The external world influences our nature. This is an established biological fact.

Example?
Too easy. Eating more calories than you burn makes you gain weight.

Gaining weight is changing a persons nature?
We are WAY off on what a persons nature means

Apparently. I think an organism's nature is, well, the organism itself.

A persons nature is their inborn character, innate disposition, or inherent tendencies.
Agree with all of that but "inborn character". We obviously change quite a bit from the moment of birth.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #611 on: May 17, 2012, 10:45:42 PM »
inborn meaning innate or internal...not your behavoir or appearance at birth.
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rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #612 on: May 17, 2012, 10:47:27 PM »
Sure, I agree with all of that. Your nature is basically who you are.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #613 on: May 17, 2012, 10:53:36 PM »
Sure, I agree with all of that. Your nature is basically who you are.

Not ALL you are.  You can have behavoirs that go against your nature.  That is the difference.

Anyway...great discussion....got to go to bed.  Goodnight!
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #614 on: May 17, 2012, 10:55:45 PM »
Sure, I agree with all of that. Your nature is basically who you are.

Not ALL you are.
Aaaaaaaaand we're back where we started.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #615 on: May 17, 2012, 10:58:48 PM »
Sure, I agree with all of that. Your nature is basically who you are.

Not ALL you are.
Aaaaaaaaand we're back where we started.

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #616 on: May 17, 2012, 11:40:21 PM »
Sure, I agree with all of that. Your nature is basically who you are.

Not ALL you are.
Aaaaaaaaand we're back where we started.

THIRD BASE!!!
+1

H, you are right to notice that nurture plays an enormous role in the development of people. This cannot be disputed. However, it's the intensity of some of your suggestions that seems to be turning some of the kind folk in this thread off. You are implying that somebody who is 100% homosexual can become 100% heterosexual, which doesn't make any more sense than saying a male can become female. Running with that example, a male can grow up to act extremely masculine or extremely feminine, and whether he does will certainly be determined by nurture; however, he can never act so feminine that he becomes a female.

That's the point. It's a sliding scale, but you're not free to move wherever you want. If you're born 100% heterosexual, you might become a bit gayer over time, but you're effectively locked into the hetero-zone.

I'll offer myself as an example. I would consider myself very heterosexual. I am simply not attracted to men. Just doesn't happen for me. If all women disappeared off the face of the earth (god forbid), and I simply didn't have a choice but to have sex with men, I'd probably eventually get used to it, but I don't see myself ever really enjoying it. I can't realistically envision a scenario where I can just trade women for men because I was born heterosexual. I encourage you to mull over this scenario yourself, realistically and without bias.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #617 on: May 18, 2012, 12:05:09 AM »
There is nothing in our nature to tell us that having straight white teeth is important.

And yet, despite wanting straight white teeth in our society, most of us are born with teeth that are not straight, and many more have to use whitening to make their teeth white. Naturally, most teeth would not be straight and white - and the reason we desire those traits is precisely becuase they are naturally rare, and indicative of natural health.

Quote
There's nothing in our nature that tells us we need to make money.

Naturally, I need food and place to live. That forces me, in the current social environment, to make money.

Quote
There's nothing that tells women that they ought to straight iron their hair because it's more appealing that way.

And yet, despite the social pressure to straighten out hair (?? honestly, I think I like curlier hair better... but that's way too tangential), people are still naturally born with hair that needs to be straightened.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #618 on: May 18, 2012, 12:07:44 AM »
Yet when someone straightens their hair, at that moment their nature is having straight hair.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #619 on: May 18, 2012, 12:11:42 AM »
Yet when someone straightens their hair, at that moment their nature is having straight hair.

No? Nevermind, you're defining nature very loosely to say the least, so I'm out. I guess you could say it's in my nature to leave this thread at this very moment or whatever. Have a fun time kiddos. :)
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #620 on: May 18, 2012, 12:13:22 AM »
Yet when someone straightens their hair, at that moment their nature is having straight hair.

No? Nevermind, you're defining nature very loosely to say the least, so I'm out. I guess you could say it's in my nature to leave this thread at this very moment or whatever. Have a fun time kiddos. :)
Well, if nature is genotype plus external influences, then I don't see how the nature of their hair isn't straight.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #621 on: May 18, 2012, 12:21:36 AM »
Yet when someone straightens their hair, at that moment their nature is having straight hair.

No? Nevermind, you're defining nature very loosely to say the least, so I'm out. I guess you could say it's in my nature to leave this thread at this very moment or whatever. Have a fun time kiddos. :)
Well, if nature is genotype plus external influences, then I don't see how the nature of their hair isn't straight.

Then I guess that all the women with implants are naturally busty.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #622 on: May 18, 2012, 12:23:35 AM »
You're using "nature" in a way I'm not. When you're talking about nature, you're talking about genotype alone, sans external influences.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #623 on: May 18, 2012, 12:29:38 AM »
I'm using "nature" as it is defined in the dictionary.

https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural?s=t

Quote
1.
existing in or formed by nature ( opposed to artificial): a natural bridge.
2.
based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth is a natural process.
3.
of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.
4.
of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science: conducting natural experiments.
5.
in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land.

I mean, it's "nature vs nurture," and even though its really more "nature and nurture", you're pointing to nurture, and calling it nature.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #624 on: May 18, 2012, 12:34:34 AM »
Because it really shouldn't be "nature and nurture". Nurture is contained within nature.

Naturally, we are supposed to be lactose intolerant. So would you say it is against a person's nature to be tolerant of lactose? They maintain lactose consumption and effectively altered their predestined disposition.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #625 on: May 18, 2012, 12:39:51 AM »
Yet when someone straightens their hair, at that moment their nature is having straight hair.
Obviously not, because they had to straighten their hair to make it straight, and their hair will go right back to its natural form once they take a shower. This is more "working around your nature" than "changing your nature temporarily", because what would the latter even mean? And those who encourage gays not to express their homosexuality are forcing them to work around their nature.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #626 on: May 18, 2012, 12:40:40 AM »
predestined disposition.

i.e. nature.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #627 on: May 18, 2012, 05:03:32 AM »
you're pointing to nurture, and calling it nature.
This, definitely.

BTW, ran across a few quotes from John Locke.  I thought of them in relation to the NC Amendment One.  They struck my fancy, not sure how relevant anyone else will find them.

"New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common."

"The end of law is, not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom."
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #628 on: May 18, 2012, 06:38:31 AM »
Since this thread has become such a nature/nurture pissing contest, I will now only post in yellow in this thread.

Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #629 on: May 18, 2012, 07:09:15 AM »
Since this thread has become such a nature/nurture pissing contest, I will now only post in yellow in this thread.

+ why does it matter if being gay is nurture or nature.