Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114205 times)

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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #560 on: May 17, 2012, 08:31:01 PM »
I'm not saying that a guy can go homo to hetero or vice versa in a days time. Even for other traits, these things take years.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #561 on: May 17, 2012, 08:32:54 PM »
I'm not saying that a guy can go homo to hetero or vice versa in a days time. Even for other traits, these things take years.

I'm patient.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #562 on: May 17, 2012, 08:36:52 PM »
You don't want me on your tail, cutie. ;)
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #563 on: May 17, 2012, 08:37:33 PM »
H, I get what you're saying, however you're basing it off solely what you want to be true and not actual evidence. 

???  The "actual evidence" you are referring to being what exactly?
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #564 on: May 17, 2012, 08:38:36 PM »
You don't want me on your tail, cutie. ;)

A girl can dream.

H, I get what you're saying, however you're basing it off solely what you want to be true and not actual evidence. 

???  The "actual evidence" you are referring to being what exactly?

Evidence that gay people can completely and truly become straight or vice versa. Not just a few christians saying they've converted people.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #565 on: May 17, 2012, 08:45:44 PM »
H, I get what you're saying, however you're basing it off solely what you want to be true and not actual evidence. 

???  The "actual evidence" you are referring to being what exactly?

Evidence that gay people can completely and truly become straight or vice versa. Not just a few christians saying they've converted people.

No, I get that that is the evidence you would like to see in support of his point.  But your post implied that there is hard evidence to the contrary that he is ignoring.  Is that what you are saying?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #566 on: May 17, 2012, 08:47:38 PM »
Given that we have no evidence for either a person being able or unable to change sexuality, we have to rely on probability here. Most phenotypes are movable spectra. Because of this, it is likely that a phenotype we don''t have evidence for (e.g. sexuality) is a movable spectrum.

Considering the massive amounts of external, non-genetic influences on our sexuality (social pressures, relationship experience, our own chemical balance, etc), do you really think it impossible that a person's sexuality is grounded at birth?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #567 on: May 17, 2012, 08:47:49 PM »
H, I get what you're saying, however you're basing it off solely what you want to be true and not actual evidence. 

???  The "actual evidence" you are referring to being what exactly?

Evidence that gay people can completely and truly become straight or vice versa. Not just a few christians saying they've converted people.

No, I get that that is the evidence you would like to see in support of his point.  But your post implied that there is hard evidence to the contrary that he is ignoring.  Is that what you are saying?

Well, Jews have evidence of it, but it's kept in the great vault of Jerusalem. But seriously, I didn't mean to imply that evidence existed. In fact I assume it doesn't.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #568 on: May 17, 2012, 08:48:25 PM »
Given that we have no evidence for either a person being able or unable to change sexuality, we have to rely on probability here. Most phenotypes are movable spectra. Because of this, it is likely that a phenotype we don''t have evidence for (e.g. sexuality) is a movable spectrum.

Considering the massive amounts of external, non-genetic influences on our sexuality (social pressures, relationship experience, our own chemical balance, etc), do you really think it impossible that a person's sexuality is grounded at birth?

No, because sexual attraction isn't phenotype.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #569 on: May 17, 2012, 08:51:19 PM »
Given that we have no evidence for either a person being able or unable to change sexuality, we have to rely on probability here. Most phenotypes are movable spectra. Because of this, it is likely that a phenotype we don''t have evidence for (e.g. sexuality) is a movable spectrum.

Considering the massive amounts of external, non-genetic influences on our sexuality (social pressures, relationship experience, our own chemical balance, etc), do you really think it impossible that a person's sexuality is grounded at birth?

No, because sexual attraction isn't phenotype.
Organisms called humans express sexuality. Sexuality is a phenotype.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #570 on: May 17, 2012, 08:51:54 PM »
But seriously, I didn't mean to imply that evidence existed. In fact I assume it doesn't.

Oh, I see.  Carry on then.

But for the record, IMO, it is mostly irrelevant anyway.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #571 on: May 17, 2012, 08:52:24 PM »
I really wanna meet someone who can be homosexual or vice versa whenever they want for supporting "actual evidence". But I know I want something "impossible".
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #572 on: May 17, 2012, 08:53:46 PM »
Given that we have no evidence for either a person being able or unable to change sexuality, we have to rely on probability here. Most phenotypes are movable spectra. Because of this, it is likely that a phenotype we don''t have evidence for (e.g. sexuality) is a movable spectrum.

Considering the massive amounts of external, non-genetic influences on our sexuality (social pressures, relationship experience, our own chemical balance, etc), do you really think it impossible that a person's sexuality is grounded at birth?

No, because sexual attraction isn't phenotype.
Organisms called humans express sexuality. Sexuality is a phenotype.

It's more than just an expression.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #573 on: May 17, 2012, 08:54:51 PM »
Given that we have no evidence for either a person being able or unable to change sexuality, we have to rely on probability here. Most phenotypes are movable spectra. Because of this, it is likely that a phenotype we don''t have evidence for (e.g. sexuality) is a movable spectrum.

Considering the massive amounts of external, non-genetic influences on our sexuality (social pressures, relationship experience, our own chemical balance, etc), do you really think it impossible that a person's sexuality is grounded at birth?

No, because sexual attraction isn't phenotype.
Organisms called humans express sexuality. Sexuality is a phenotype.

It's more than just an expression.
In biology, expressed traits are called "phenotypes".
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #574 on: May 17, 2012, 08:55:09 PM »
But seriously, I didn't mean to imply that evidence existed. In fact I assume it doesn't.

Oh, I see.  Carry on then.

But for the record, IMO, it is mostly irrelevant anyway.

Oh I completely agree. However H seems (perhaps I'm wrong) to be arguing that we are able to convert all of the gays into straights and that gay people won't be a problem if we can just turn them all into straights. And if he's not arguing that, then I haven't a clue what he is.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #575 on: May 17, 2012, 08:57:29 PM »
Given that we have no evidence for either a person being able or unable to change sexuality, we have to rely on probability here. Most phenotypes are movable spectra. Because of this, it is likely that a phenotype we don''t have evidence for (e.g. sexuality) is a movable spectrum.

Considering the massive amounts of external, non-genetic influences on our sexuality (social pressures, relationship experience, our own chemical balance, etc), do you really think it impossible that a person's sexuality is grounded at birth?

No, because sexual attraction isn't phenotype.
Organisms called humans express sexuality. Sexuality is a phenotype.

It's more than just an expression.
In biology, expressed traits are called "phenotypes".

I know what a phenotype is. I just said it's MORE than an expression.

However it doesn't matter. Most phenotypes can't change with nurture either. You can't make a black person white (Michael jackson aside), you can't make a midget tall, you can't make a person born with 1 hand suddenly have 2 just by their environment.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #576 on: May 17, 2012, 09:00:15 PM »
I'm not arguing that is a reason for any kind of action. I'm just saying that we're not a slave to our phenotypes. The "it's not a choice" argument gets on my nerves because you can change your nature, including your sexuality. We are creatures of habit. It takes time to change yourself, but you can do it. Your brain is an easily-manipulated machine.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #577 on: May 17, 2012, 09:02:30 PM »
However it doesn't matter. Most phenotypes can't change with nurture either. You can't make a black person white (Michael jackson aside)
You can make a white person dark.

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you can't make a midget tall
Once you're bones are solidified, no, but your upbringing will affect your height. There is no single gene or set of genes that scientists can look at and say, "Oh, this here says you'll be six feet tall!"
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #578 on: May 17, 2012, 09:05:35 PM »
Given that we have no evidence for either a person being able or unable to change sexuality, we have to rely on probability here. Most phenotypes are movable spectra. Because of this, it is likely that a phenotype we don''t have evidence for (e.g. sexuality) is a movable spectrum.

Considering the massive amounts of external, non-genetic influences on our sexuality (social pressures, relationship experience, our own chemical balance, etc), do you really think it impossible that a person's sexuality is grounded at birth?

No, because sexual attraction isn't phenotype.
Organisms called humans express sexuality. Sexuality is a phenotype.

It's more than just an expression.
In biology, expressed traits are called "phenotypes".

I know what a phenotype is. I just said it's MORE than an expression.

However it doesn't matter. Most phenotypes can't change with nurture either. You can't make a black person white (Michael jackson aside), you can't make a midget tall, you can't make a person born with 1 hand suddenly have 2 just by their environment.

Well, I want him to understand that. Phenotype which is mostly apperance matter in biology doesn't do anything with sexuality that we are discussing right now.

True that phenotype can change in years but it's simply called "modification". Waiting a black guy to turn white is completely another thing can be explained by evolution which takes million years. We can include sexuality in this, then again which is about genotype not phenotype.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #579 on: May 17, 2012, 09:09:20 PM »
But seriously, I didn't mean to imply that evidence existed. In fact I assume it doesn't.

Oh, I see.  Carry on then.

But for the record, IMO, it is mostly irrelevant anyway.

Oh I completely agree. However H seems (perhaps I'm wrong) to be arguing that we are able to convert all of the gays into straights and that gay people won't be a problem if we can just turn them all into straights. And if he's not arguing that, then I haven't a clue what he is.

Well, this is where I think the two sides of this argument often talk past one another.  I do not like the term sexual orientation because I think it is both (1) a loaded term and (2) inaccurate.  HOWEVER, putting that aside for a moment, let's assume for the sake of argument that sexual orientation is innate and unchangeable.  (Again, I am not necessarily persuaded that that is true, but we'll go ahead and assume that)  In that case, yes, you are correct that environment alone will not likely change one's orientation one way or the other.  I would argue that, from a Christian standpoint, orientation is not the most relevant issue.  The issue is, as I think H is trying to argue, solely one of expression.  And no matter what one's orientation, Christianity gives only two options in terms of the expresssion of one's sexuality:  (1) express it by engaging in sex within a marriage between a man and a woman; or (2) abstain and do not express it.  No matter the source of one's desires, whether because of sexual orientation or some other factor that may for argument's sake be innate and unchangeable, or whether a product of one's enviroment, those are the only two options.  So Christianity therefore teaches that if one is inclined to express their sexuality through any other means than those two options, one must discipline him- or herself to struggle against the temptation to do otherwise and to utilize one of those two options and to learn to be content with that.  And I believe (and I think this goes more to what H is trying to argue) that most can (and some do), through a self-disciplined approach, come to change their expression and, over time, to varying degrees, change their preference of how they express their sexuality, whether they ever truly change their orientation or not.

That was not easy to articulate, but hopefully I got my point across, whether you disagree with it or not.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 09:16:15 PM by bosk1 »
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #580 on: May 17, 2012, 09:12:32 PM »
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #581 on: May 17, 2012, 09:13:08 PM »
We all do things against our nature, for varying reasons, and with varying success.  In the end it doesnt change our nature, it only changes our behavoir.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #582 on: May 17, 2012, 09:14:18 PM »
We all do things against our nature, for varying reasons, and with varying success.  In the end it doesnt change our nature, it only changes our behavoir.

Well said.  And, for the record, I agree.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #583 on: May 17, 2012, 09:17:51 PM »
Sorry if it is misunderstanding, Bosk but do you really think this argument can be based on religions? I mean, true that Christanity say "the orientation matter" like you explain and so does Islam, AFAIK. I believe, unfortunately science and religion conflict on many matters and as it seems sexuality is the strongest one.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #584 on: May 17, 2012, 09:19:33 PM »
Sorry if it is misunderstanding, Bosk but do you really think this argument can be based on religions? I mean, true that Christanity say "the orientation matter" like you explain and so does Islam, AFAIK. I believe, unfortunately science and religion conflict on many matters and as it seems sexuality is the strongest one.

From what I understand from discussions here, in regards to Christianity, it is OK to be gay, but not ok to act on it.
Or am I misunderstanding the question?
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #585 on: May 17, 2012, 09:24:37 PM »
Sorry if it is misunderstanding, Bosk but do you really think this argument can be based on religions? I mean, true that Christanity say "the orientation matter" like you explain and so does Islam, AFAIK. I believe, unfortunately science and religion conflict on many matters and as it seems sexuality is the strongest one.

From what I understand from discussions here, in regards to Christianity, it is OK to be gay, but not ok to act on it.
Or am I misunderstanding the question?

I'm not stating this at all. Well, religions can support or whatever. I'm trying to say sexuality or anything about biology are not something can be explained by religions. But then again, I can misunderstood what Bosk said.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #586 on: May 17, 2012, 09:25:33 PM »
Sorry if it is misunderstanding, Bosk but do you really think this argument can be based on religions? I mean, true that Christanity say "the orientation matter" like you explain and so does Islam, AFAIK. I believe, unfortunately science and religion conflict on many matters and as it seems sexuality is the strongest one.

I do, yes.  And that is because I believe Christianity is in fact real and its messages objectively true.  If I did not believe that and thought that it is just something some people believe that may or may not be true, I wouldn't feel that it is right to rely on its moral principles in a discussion like this.  But I am firmly convinced that we were ALL created by a loving God who has laid down the same moral laws for all humans, no matter our race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  That is why I believe religion should be part of the discussion.  I realize you don't believe that, and I respect your right to not believe it.  But it is what I believe, so it influences my opinion on the subject.


Sorry if it is misunderstanding, Bosk but do you really think this argument can be based on religions? I mean, true that Christanity say "the orientation matter" like you explain and so does Islam, AFAIK. I believe, unfortunately science and religion conflict on many matters and as it seems sexuality is the strongest one.

From what I understand from discussions here, in regards to Christianity, it is OK to be gay, but not ok to act on it.
Or am I misunderstanding the question?

Yeah, basically.  That's how I understand it.  But I think that distinction gets lost or misunderstood on both sides of the debate.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #587 on: May 17, 2012, 09:31:58 PM »
However it doesn't matter. Most phenotypes can't change with nurture either. You can't make a black person white (Michael jackson aside)
You can make a white person dark.

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you can't make a midget tall
Once you're bones are solidified, no, but your upbringing will affect your height. There is no single gene or set of genes that scientists can look at and say, "Oh, this here says you'll be six feet tall!"

I get what you're saying, and how you want the world to be like. However your "this sounds good" argument is not really based in....anything other than a desire to have it be true. If you want to prove your case, feel free. Or else it's just a guy saying how he thinks the world should be. Which is lovely but has no actual place in this convo.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #588 on: May 17, 2012, 09:33:43 PM »
Sorry if it is misunderstanding, Bosk but do you really think this argument can be based on religions? I mean, true that Christanity say "the orientation matter" like you explain and so does Islam, AFAIK. I believe, unfortunately science and religion conflict on many matters and as it seems sexuality is the strongest one.

I do, yes.  And that is because I believe Christianity is in fact real and its messages objectively true.  If I did not believe that and thought that it is just something some people believe that may or may not be true, I wouldn't feel that it is right to rely on its moral principles in a discussion like this.  But I am firmly convinced that we were ALL created by a loving God who has laid down the same moral laws for all humans, no matter our race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  That is why I believe religion should be part of the discussion.  I realize you don't believe that, and I respect your right to not believe it.  But it is what I believe, so it influences my opinion on the subject.

Bosk, I really respect what you say. I mean I wish all the believers could think like you. Personally I'm really tired that many people violently eliminate someone and support sexual discrimination just because of religions say so (or people make religions say so).
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #589 on: May 17, 2012, 09:35:08 PM »
However it doesn't matter. Most phenotypes can't change with nurture either. You can't make a black person white (Michael jackson aside)
You can make a white person dark.

Quote
you can't make a midget tall
Once you're bones are solidified, no, but your upbringing will affect your height. There is no single gene or set of genes that scientists can look at and say, "Oh, this here says you'll be six feet tall!"

I get what you're saying, and how you want the world to be like. However your "this sounds good" argument is not really based in....anything other than a desire to have it be true. If you want to prove your case, feel free. Or else it's just a guy saying how he thinks the world should be. Which is lovely but has no actual place in this convo.
What I'm saying is that it's more reasonable to believe that sexuality is a by-product of both genotype and is heavily influenced by society, development, and experiences than to believe that sexuality is set in stone right out of the womb.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #590 on: May 17, 2012, 09:36:49 PM »
No it's really not. Because there's NO reason to assume sexuality is more like paleness of skin than it is height or number of limbs, you're just saying that because SOME aspects of phenotype can be minimally altered by upbringing that sexuality is changeable. You haven't linked the two logically in the slightest bit.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #591 on: May 17, 2012, 09:38:18 PM »
To H:  No.  Your nature is not heavily influenced by society/experiences, etc.  Your behavoir will be...not your innate nature.  If you are gay, you are gay.  You might fuck a chick because you want to fit in with your fraternity borthers, but you will be closing your eyes, pretending you are butt banging Jonny's hairy ass.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #592 on: May 17, 2012, 09:40:54 PM »
Sorry if it is misunderstanding, Bosk but do you really think this argument can be based on religions? I mean, true that Christanity say "the orientation matter" like you explain and so does Islam, AFAIK. I believe, unfortunately science and religion conflict on many matters and as it seems sexuality is the strongest one.

I do, yes.  And that is because I believe Christianity is in fact real and its messages objectively true.  If I did not believe that and thought that it is just something some people believe that may or may not be true, I wouldn't feel that it is right to rely on its moral principles in a discussion like this.  But I am firmly convinced that we were ALL created by a loving God who has laid down the same moral laws for all humans, no matter our race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  That is why I believe religion should be part of the discussion.  I realize you don't believe that, and I respect your right to not believe it.  But it is what I believe, so it influences my opinion on the subject.

Bosk, I really respect what you say. I mean I wish all the believers could think like you. Personally I'm really tired that many people violently eliminate someone and support sexual discrimination just because of religions say so.

Christianity is supposed to be a religion of peace and love.  Often, those who claim to follow it do the wrong thing and treat it as a license to mistreat those who do not follow it.  I share your sadness over the fact that many believers throughout history have done some very bad things.  I know I haven't always behaved the way I should have towards others, and my own misconduct saddens me.  I'm glad you are able to at least see my good intentions even though you disagree with me.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #593 on: May 17, 2012, 09:48:57 PM »
So bosk, is it a Christians responsibility to make sure other people are acting morally?

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #594 on: May 17, 2012, 09:49:39 PM »
Your nature is not heavily influenced by society/experiences, etc.
You're serious.

Just look around. Think about all the things people care so much about. There is nothing in our nature to tell us that having straight white teeth is important. There's nothing in our nature that tells us we need to make money. There's nothing that tells women that they ought to straight iron their hair because it's more appealing that way. Our desires for these things are learned.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges