Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114291 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #455 on: May 15, 2012, 10:56:06 AM »
By the way, I was reading a news article that had a video clip in it with Mitt Romney making the bold claim that "Most Americans" believe marriage should be only between a man and a woman. 

He's actually incorrect, as demonstrated here:
https://factcheck.org/2012/05/do-most-americans-agree-with-romney-on-gay-marriage/

Clearly, it's not a large majority, but the trend is unmistakable. 

Not that it matters much since, again, the numbers are fairly close.  However, I don't see this as something to quibble over.  Polls may show one thing.  But I'm fairly certain he is drawing that conclusion from states (including California) where the issue has actually been put to a vote.  In terms of actual election results directly on that issue, he is correct.  You or I might disagree with him on whether poll results are more accurate in terms of gauging the entire population, but I think his argument is valid nonetheless.

EDIT:  This assumes he is relying on election results as a data set to form his opinion.  If he is just pulling things out of thin air based on what he subjectively believes is probably true, then please disregard everything I just said.   :lol
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #456 on: May 15, 2012, 11:04:00 AM »
Yeah, I was mostly commenting on the trend, which, you have to admit, is pretty clear



Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #457 on: May 15, 2012, 11:06:12 AM »
Yup.  No argument from me on that.  The results show what they show. 
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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #458 on: May 15, 2012, 03:48:03 PM »
Wow, I was just going to link to that video. Nerdfighters!


Also another video, this time from John Green:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQw0eLzfGNI&feature=youtu.be

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #459 on: May 15, 2012, 05:49:40 PM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.
I have no idea where you got this from or why it makes sense to you.
It doesn't happen that often, but it actually does occur. Especially in an culture where a man is expected to marry a woman at some point.

If you take the view that an individual's sexuality is like a spectrum that can change over time, it's not unreasonable to expect that many gay men have married a woman. They might start out with dominant homosexual leanings with a small affinity for women, but once they marry a woman, their heterosexuality becomes dominant.

Plus, something else needs to be said. If the people that make up the government of America want it to be Christian, then it will be Christian and there's not much naysayers can do about it. 

"But, but, but...church and state should be separate!" doesn't cut it if the majority think it should be otherwise.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 05:58:22 PM by Ħ »
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #460 on: May 15, 2012, 06:10:45 PM »
I suppose that is one thing that occasionally annoys me.

I get it...it is sometimes the law of physics.  "For every action, there is a reaction"...yada yada yada...

But it's kindof like when I spent some of my teenage years hanging around AA clubs...there were some alcoholics who were just in that frame of mind that if you've ever been drunk, and it caused you some kind of problem...*YOU'RE AN ALCOHOLIC*...  Don't try to deny it now, because denial is just a block to healing from the disease.

I've been around the block in my 42 years, and I have to say that I have met some (not all) gay people who are like that.    Like if you've ever looked at a guy's ass...you're in the closet.    That type of attitude really ticks me off from BOTH sides of the issue. 

I do believe in the scale that guy in the 50's invented....(his name slips my mind at the moment)...but he was really ground breaking, even though his findings have been shown to be a bit more hazy than anyone originally thought.   But he adopted a kindof "scale" wherein there were varying degrees between *full on 100% gay* and *full on 100% hetero* and most people are somewhere on the sliding scale between the two.   

I guess I do have a bit of a personal moral issue with the fact that if homosexuality is done openly and considered "normal" by the populace, more people from the middle of the scale will be open to experimenting.   Maybe they won't "go gay", maybe they will...but it doesn't make any difference...it's just an enticement to engage in (what God deems...if you believe in God) immoral activity.   If you don't believe in God, then this is just a healthy experimentation to decide which direction in life you wish to go.     My personal beliefs are that this is a corruption of a person's spirituality....obviously, your mileage may vary. 

EDIT: Dr Alfred Kinsey was the guys name...
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Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #461 on: May 15, 2012, 08:22:39 PM »
Plus, something else needs to be said. If the people that make up the government of America want it to be Christian, then it will be Christian and there's not much naysayers can do about it. 

"But, but, but...church and state should be separate!" doesn't cut it if the majority think it should be otherwise.
Doesn't make it right. That's why I feel democracy is a horrible form of governance.

Offline Omega

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #462 on: May 15, 2012, 08:39:55 PM »
Doesn't make it right. That's why I feel democracy is a horrible form of governance.

Plato didn't name democracy as the second worst form of governance (behind tyranny) for no reason...
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #463 on: May 15, 2012, 08:43:23 PM »
Plato was a tool.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #464 on: May 15, 2012, 08:44:05 PM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.
I have no idea where you got this from or why it makes sense to you.
It doesn't happen that often, but it actually does occur. Especially in an culture where a man is expected to marry a woman at some point.

If you take the view that an individual's sexuality is like a spectrum that can change over time, it's not unreasonable to expect that many gay men have married a woman. They might start out with dominant homosexual leanings with a small affinity for women, but once they marry a woman, their heterosexuality becomes dominant.

Plus, something else needs to be said. If the people that make up the government of America want it to be Christian, then it will be Christian and there's not much naysayers can do about it. 

"But, but, but...church and state should be separate!" doesn't cut it if the majority think it should be otherwise.
I don't understand how this is a defense for our current system at all. This is grasping at straws at best.

I hate to go back to the analogies that have been used a million times so far in this thread, but they're really very good and they shouldn't be ignored.

Taking the scientology-is-America's-national-religion example, what you've said here is rather like saying "you know, people's religious beliefs change over time, so even if you start out believing in Christ you might start to believe Scientology after a while. Therefore, equal rights."

Taking the all-interracial-marriage-is-outlawed example, what you've said here is rather like saying "even if you're in love with someone of a different race, that will change throughout time, so marry someone of your race. Therefore, equal rights."

Offline Omega

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #465 on: May 15, 2012, 08:47:11 PM »
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #466 on: May 15, 2012, 10:03:35 PM »
Plus, something else needs to be said. If the people that make up the government of America want it to be Christian, then it will be Christian and there's not much naysayers can do about it. 

"But, but, but...church and state should be separate!" doesn't cut it if the majority think it should be otherwise.
Doesn't make it right. That's why I feel democracy is a horrible form of governance.

Uhh what kind of alternative would you suggest? Anarchy doesn't count as a form of governance; it's a lack thereof.
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Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #467 on: May 15, 2012, 10:57:49 PM »
Well. Governance wasn't the term I was looking for.... I actually can't find the term...

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #468 on: May 15, 2012, 11:52:11 PM »
Political system? Societal organization? Either way, anarchy is still the antithesis of both. The absence thereof is the defining quality of anarchy.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #469 on: May 16, 2012, 12:07:43 AM »
Plus, something else needs to be said. If the people that make up the government of America want it to be Christian, then it will be Christian and there's not much naysayers can do about it. 

"But, but, but...church and state should be separate!" doesn't cut it if the majority think it should be otherwise.
Doesn't make it right. That's why I feel democracy is a horrible form of governance.
Uhh what kind of alternative would you suggest? Anarchy doesn't count as a form of governance; it's a lack thereof.


I think what he was getting at is that just because something happens to be popular, that doesn't make it the right thing for society as a whole.  Considering how the French and Russian revolutions spiraled out of control on tides of popular rage and unrest, or the fact that some of the most despicable tyrants in the history of mankind were elected by popular vote, history has shown that democracy does not always lead to freedom.  The democratic model can very easily lead to a Despotism of Liberty, a nation where any dissent from the majority opinion is treated with violence and hatred.  I think it can be safely argued that the Public can no better govern itself, or even knows what is in their own best interests, any more then the God-Kings of antiquity.

Plato was a tool.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #470 on: May 16, 2012, 05:41:14 AM »
Yes but to a libertarian, any form of governance is a horrible form of governance.
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Offline TL

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #471 on: May 16, 2012, 12:03:52 PM »
If you take the view that an individual's sexuality is like a spectrum that can change over time, it's not unreasonable to expect that many gay men have married a woman. They might start out with dominant homosexual leanings with a small affinity for women, but once they marry a woman, their heterosexuality becomes dominant.

Plus, something else needs to be said. If the people that make up the government of America want it to be Christian, then it will be Christian and there's not much naysayers can do about it. 

"But, but, but...church and state should be separate!" doesn't cut it if the majority think it should be otherwise.
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.

As for the religious majority argument; I've said this several times, but it's important in a civilized society for the government to protect all of its citizens, not just the majority, and to not decide minority rights by majority rule. Freedom of religion in the US is also freedom from any religion that you don't practice. It's pretty damn important. We've seen time and time again throughout the world the problems with countries becoming theocracies.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #472 on: May 16, 2012, 12:16:12 PM »
Word, TL

Offline senecadawg2

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #473 on: May 16, 2012, 12:33:44 PM »
I'm kind of surprised that you guys are still having this conversation. I thought it would have died off a long time ago.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #474 on: May 16, 2012, 12:36:01 PM »
It will never die.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #475 on: May 16, 2012, 12:36:46 PM »
Quote
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.
I think it does. Nature plus nurture, right? Nature (your genotype) is obviously static, but sexuality also depends on surroundings, upbringing, habits, etc.. It works the same way as many other phenotypes.

EDIT: I've got no evidence to back this up, but there's no evidence to the contrary. Since most phenotypes are affected by "nurture", I think it's safe to assume the same for sexuality.

Quote
As for the religious majority argument; I've said this several times, but it's important in a civilized society for the government to protect all of its citizens, not just the majority, and to not decide minority rights by majority rule. Freedom of religion in the US is also freedom from any religion that you don't practice. It's pretty damn important. We've seen time and time again throughout the world the problems with countries becoming theocracies.
Freedom from religion exists if voters say it exists. That's how rights work. You could appeal to some higher order which dictates what human rights are, but that's just chasing after the wind.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:43:47 PM by Ħ »
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #476 on: May 16, 2012, 12:42:51 PM »
Quote
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.
I think it does. Nature plus nurture, right? Nature (your genotype) is obviously static, but sexuality also depends on surroundings, upbringing, habits, etc.. It works the same way as many other phenotypes.
Again, this is no reason to justify the illegality of same-sex marriage.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #477 on: May 16, 2012, 12:43:38 PM »
Quote
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.
I think it does.

It doesn't. People may realize repressed tendencies, but gay people don't become straight and straight people don't become gay. No matter what your religious beliefs are on the matter, it's just not the way real people work. Sure, you can brainwash someone into thinking whatever you want them to think, and enough emotional guilt can make someone repress who they are and try to be someone else, but those people don't change. Despite what you think.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #478 on: May 16, 2012, 12:44:56 PM »
I'm kind of surprised that you guys are still having this conversation. I thought it would have died off a long time ago.

Conversations like this, are why trends like this happen:






Quote
I think it does. Nature plus nurture, right? Nature (your genotype) is obviously static, but sexuality also depends on surroundings, upbringing, habits, etc.. It works the same way as many other phenotypes.

The idea of a gay man turning straight is ridiculous, and more than one study has shown that attempts to make people straight are extremely harmful and bad for the person involved.

Besides, you're butchering nature vs. nurture. There are somethings which are genetically determined. Period. My genetics determined that I have a penis, no amount of nurture is going to change that (okay, castration...). Gay men pretty much have the brains of a woman, gay women pretty much have the brains of a man. Oddly enough, this could be tied to nurture, but not in the way you're thinking:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Quote
Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

But as Savic herself acknowledges, the study can't say whether the brain differences are inherited, or result from abnormally high or low exposure in the womb to sex hormones such as testosterone.

Rarely do I feel justified in saying someone is wrong, but you are wrong.


Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #479 on: May 16, 2012, 12:46:54 PM »
Quote
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.
I think it does. Nature plus nurture, right? Nature (your genotype) is obviously static, but sexuality also depends on surroundings, upbringing, habits, etc.. It works the same way as many other phenotypes.
Again, this is no reason to justify the illegality of same-sex marriage.
I don't think I actually argued for the illegality of same-sex marriage in this thread. I only recall arguing for:

- gay rights as nonexistent
- the gay marriage issue as not being a civil rights issue
- sexuality as changeable spectrum

Even given all that, I wouldn't sweat it if gay marriage was legal.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #480 on: May 16, 2012, 12:49:34 PM »
Quote
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.
I think it does. Nature plus nurture, right? Nature (your genotype) is obviously static, but sexuality also depends on surroundings, upbringing, habits, etc.. It works the same way as many other phenotypes.

Actually no it doesn't. It's a tricky subject though. Biologically you are heterosexual or homosexual and it isn't the thing you can choose. The things you mention surroundings, upbringing or habits just do not effect your sexuality directly. They may delay to identify yourself but for example upbringing doesn't make you homosexual suddenly or one day if you are gay you don't say "hey i'm hetero because of this social pressure". Well, of course you can deny what you are but it isn't the thing we discuss now.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #481 on: May 16, 2012, 12:52:52 PM »
Besides, you're butchering nature vs. nurture. There are somethings which are genetically determined. Period. My genetics determined that I have a penis, no amount of nurture is going to change that (okay, castration...). Gay men pretty much have the brains of a woman, gay women pretty much have the brains of a man. Nurture isn't going to just change that.
I'll say it again in a different way. There is rarely a straight line between genotype and phenotype. Yes, the fact that you have one X and one Y sex chromosomes is biologically fixed. But the fact that you have a penis isn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

Just examine twins who grew up in different environments. They can look completely different and have completely different personalities.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #482 on: May 16, 2012, 12:53:22 PM »
Quote
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.
I think it does. Nature plus nurture, right? Nature (your genotype) is obviously static, but sexuality also depends on surroundings, upbringing, habits, etc.. It works the same way as many other phenotypes.
Again, this is no reason to justify the illegality of same-sex marriage.
I don't think I actually argued for the illegality of same-sex marriage in this thread. I only recall arguing for:

- gay rights as nonexistent
- the gay marriage issue as not being a civil rights issue
- sexuality as changeable spectrum

Even given all that, I wouldn't sweat it if gay marriage was legal.
Ignoring that gay rights do exists (as much as any other rights do), that gay marriage is certainly a civil rights issue, and that sexuality is not changeable, this thread is about same-sex marriage so this discussion seems to be quite irrelevant.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #483 on: May 16, 2012, 12:54:48 PM »
Quote
A person's sexual orientation doesn't change over time though.
I'm open to the notion that there's a spectrum of varying preference (after all, there are people who are bisexual). However, a person is where they are on that spectrum. It doesn't change.
I think it does. Nature plus nurture, right? Nature (your genotype) is obviously static, but sexuality also depends on surroundings, upbringing, habits, etc.. It works the same way as many other phenotypes.
Again, this is no reason to justify the illegality of same-sex marriage.
I don't think I actually argued for the illegality of same-sex marriage in this thread. I only recall arguing for:

- gay rights as nonexistent
- the gay marriage issue as not being a civil rights issue
- sexuality as changeable spectrum

Even given all that, I wouldn't sweat it if gay marriage was legal.
Ignoring that gay rights do exists (as much as any other rights do), that gay marriage is certainly a civil rights issue, and that sexuality is not changeable, this thread is about same-sex marriage so this discussion seems to be quite irrelevant.
No. If someone says "Same-sex marriage should be legal because the right to same-sex marriage exists," then my statements are completely relevant.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Ryzee

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #484 on: May 16, 2012, 12:58:54 PM »
Ever hear the saying that freedom in America is about the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?"  I would think that being able to marry the person you love falls under the "pursuit of happiness."  It's supposed to be a right that every citizen of this county is granted.  Part of what's supposed to make America such a great place, yeah?

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #485 on: May 16, 2012, 01:02:41 PM »
That's a rather roundabout way to interpret the Declaration (which isn't the source of law anyway). If your interpretation were true, lots more things should be rights that are not - "right to monopolize", "right to hire workers for whatever wage I want to set", etc.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #486 on: May 16, 2012, 01:05:48 PM »
That's a rather roundabout way to interpret the Declaration (which isn't the source of law anyway). If your interpretation were true, lots more things should be rights that are not - "right to monopolize", "right to hire workers for whatever wage I want to set", etc.

And the right to deny the ability for someone to marry the person they love.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #487 on: May 16, 2012, 01:05:55 PM »
But the fact that you have a penis isn't

I wouldn't assume that is a fact.

Ever hear the saying that freedom in America is about the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?"  I would think that being able to marry the person you love falls under the "pursuit of happiness."  It's supposed to be a right that every citizen of this county is granted.  Part of what's supposed to make America such a great place, yeah?

COOKIE FOR YOU!  I HAVE BEEN WAITING AND WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO SAY THIS!  :cookie:

Short answer:  All three of those rights have certain limits and, whether intentionally listed in this order or not, it just so happens that the number of limitations our Constitution, legal system, and generally-accepted societal norms have imposed on each of those freedoms is in ascending order (i.e., there are very few restrictions/limitations placed on the right to life, more restrictions/limitations on the right to liberty, and even more on the right to the pursuit of happiness). 

And, again, good question to bring up in the first place.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #488 on: May 16, 2012, 01:09:09 PM »
Ever hear the saying that freedom in America is about the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?"  I would think that being able to marry the person you love falls under the "pursuit of happiness."  It's supposed to be a right that every citizen of this county is granted.  Part of what's supposed to make America such a great place, yeah?

That's from the Declaration of Independence and isn't really a "right" that is enumerated in any law in the United States that I am aware of.  The problem with an argument like this is "the pursuit of happiness" is pretty vague. 

What if pulling the heads off cats was something that made me happy?  Should I have a "right" to do that?

As much as people like to argue against same-sex marriage as being a civil rights struggle, that's precisely what it is.  Marriage, in the US is a civil institution.  You need a license to do it.  In order to obtain that license you need to have a blood test and you need to meet certain civil requirements.  The arguments against it being a civil right are mostly very weak.  It's going to end up in front of the Supreme Court at some point.  And I'd be really surprised if the DOMA isn't repealed within a decade.

Remember, times are changing:


Offline Ryzee

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #489 on: May 16, 2012, 01:15:53 PM »
I always took it that we have the right to those three things (life, liberty & pursuit of happiness) as long as they don't infringe on someone else's rights to those 3 things.  H's examples were bad because they would infringe on another's rights to one (or all) of those 3 things.  I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how granting homosexuals the right to marry will infringe on somebody else's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (I smell an abbreviation: ll&poh?).

I guess the retort would be that it would infinge on the happiness of Christians, because if homosexual marriage were permitted in our society then that would make them unhappy because they'd be living in what they deemed an "immoral" society (which I suppose they could also argue that they already are, but I digress)? 

I don't know, for what it's worth though I'll announce that I think gays should be able to marry, and that one day they will be able to as society continues to progress.  Just like blacks and women are now allowed to do things that they previously weren't, and when we look back on how they weren't allowed to do those things it seems quite silly to us now.  I saw a thing on the internet that was a picture of people protesting gay marriage in D.C. and an older picture of people protesting interracial marriage in D.C.  The caption was "imagine how silly you're going to look in 40 years."  I thougt it was pretty much right on.


*Edit-  Oh, and also, just to clarify- I wasn't under the impression that the life, liberty, etc. was an actual right granted to us by law.  Rather it's just one of the ideas that we value in this county and is supposed to be one of the things that makes America such a great, free place to live.  One would think that allowing people to marry the person they love wouldn't be something that's frowned upon in a free country such as ours.  It's been pointed out already in this tread that allowing gays to marry causes no tangible harm or suffering to anybody else, but not allowing them to actually DOES cause people harm and suffering.  It just doesn't seem like a very American thing to do. 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 01:27:24 PM by Ryzee »