Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114224 times)

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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #420 on: May 14, 2012, 02:08:30 PM »
Why not? It's a matter of infringing on liberties.
But it's not a matter of granting one group a certain set of liberties that are different than the liberties given to another group.

It's not like, say, giving white men the right to vote while withholding it from women and blacks. All Americans have been given the right to marry one non-minor that is of the opposite sex. The right is not withheld from any group.

BTW eric, there is no such American right as "the right to marry whomever you love". That doesn't exist.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #421 on: May 14, 2012, 02:08:58 PM »
Omega said "it is readily evident" -- obviously, he wasn't relying on any actual studies/anecdotes/real-world support of any kind. I asked him to explain why that was so evident a page or two back, so we'll just wait for that, I suppose.

Why not? It's a matter of infringing on liberties.
But it's not a matter of granting one group a certain set of liberties that are different than the liberties given to another group.

It's not like, say, giving white men the right to vote while withholding it from women and blacks. All Americans have been given the right to marry one non-minor that is of the opposite sex. The right is not withheld from any group.
Except it wouldn't make too much sense for a homosexual to "marry" someone of the opposite sex, would it? So they do not have the ability to marry in effect.

EDIT: Some of the things that have been said in this thread truly shock me. By bosk's and H's logic, it must be not be a civil rights issue to have separate restrooms/water fountains/seating areas for whites and blacks. After all, we're not denying any of these rights to any individual group, right?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 02:25:43 PM by theseoafs »

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #422 on: May 14, 2012, 02:23:51 PM »
Why not? It's a matter of infringing on liberties.
But it's not a matter of granting one group a certain set of liberties that are different than the liberties given to another group.


Homosexuals are not a different group than heterosexuals?

It's not like, say, giving white men the right to vote while withholding it from women and blacks.
Agreed.  It's different.  Race is not a factor in withholding the right to marry from homosexuals.  It's based purely on bias against their sexuality.  Most of which is based on religion. 

What bugs me about that is we have some stuff written into our constitution that says "congress shall make no laws respecting any religion" or something along those lines, yet, states are being allowed to do just exactly that.

I think this issue is going to eventually reach the supreme court. 

Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #423 on: May 14, 2012, 02:46:41 PM »
Yup. No federal laws, but maybe state laws? I don't know the US constitution inside and out but I suspect it's something like that.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #424 on: May 14, 2012, 02:54:02 PM »
All Americans have been given the right to marry one non-minor that is of the opposite sex. The right is not withheld from any group.

This is the letter of the law as it stands now, yes. And while legally it may have two legs to stand on, more and more people are feeling that, just because a law is “fair” in the legal sense, we as a society can do better to make things more fair and equitable. 
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #425 on: May 14, 2012, 02:55:53 PM »

What bugs me about that is we have some stuff written into our constitution that says "congress shall make no laws respecting any religion" or something along those lines, yet, states are being allowed to do just exactly that.

I think this issue is going to eventually reach the supreme court.

That's really not how it works.  The First Amendment can't be used to prevent people from voting on their beliefs.  What it can do is prevent formal incorporation of religion into state activities (like prayer in schools, or religious propaganda like "Intelligent Design").  But people are entitled to their opinions, including ones derived from their religious beliefs.  I don't know much about Constitutional Law, but I don't think a law like this violates the First Amendment.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #426 on: May 14, 2012, 03:10:20 PM »
All Americans have been given the right to marry one non-minor that is of the opposite sex. The right is not withheld from any group.

This is the letter of the law as it stands now, yes. And while legally it may have two legs to stand on, more and more people are feeling that, just because a law is “fair” in the legal sense, we as a society can do better to make things more fair and equitable.

Which is how my earlier example of black voting rights kicks in. The letter of the law said blacks could vote, but it took 100 years for blacks to truly get the right to vote.

Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #427 on: May 14, 2012, 03:26:09 PM »
The way things should be according to the way it is written and the way things turn out don't always correlate.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #428 on: May 14, 2012, 03:39:01 PM »
If I recall correctly, wasn't this the logic behind Brown vs. Board of Education, or at least other cases around that time dealing with civil rights?

Also, seeing as how it took legislation to give blacks the right to vote, I'm guessing all those literacy tests and other things were upheld because they "applied" to everyone?

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #429 on: May 14, 2012, 03:44:58 PM »
Omega said "it is readily evident" -- obviously, he wasn't relying on any actual studies/anecdotes/real-world support of any kind. I asked him to explain why that was so evident a page or two back, so we'll just wait for that, I suppose.

Omega has been asked not to participate in this discussion.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #430 on: May 14, 2012, 04:10:18 PM »
Except it wouldn't make too much sense for a homosexual to "marry" someone of the opposite sex, would it? So they do not have the ability to marry in effect.
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.

Quote
EDIT: Some of the things that have been said in this thread truly shock me. By bosk's and H's logic, it must be not be a civil rights issue to have separate restrooms/water fountains/seating areas for whites and blacks. After all, we're not denying any of these rights to any individual group, right?
On first impulse, I think that while segregation (in principle) is definitely an issue, it is not properly classified as a "civil rights" issue. Of course, historically we know that while blacks and whites were separate, they were certainly not equal.

Homosexuals are not a different group than heterosexuals?
Read: In modern America, homosexuals and heterosexuals are granted the same set of liberties - each group can and can't do the same things. Contrast to the Reconstruction Era - blacks and whites are granted different sets of liberties...one group can do something the other can't.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #431 on: May 14, 2012, 04:17:38 PM »
Except it wouldn't make too much sense for a homosexual to "marry" someone of the opposite sex, would it? So they do not have the ability to marry in effect.
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.


This is just utterly bizarre.  By the exact same logic, gay marriage should be allowed for the exact same fucking reasons.

Quote
Quote
EDIT: Some of the things that have been said in this thread truly shock me. By bosk's and H's logic, it must be not be a civil rights issue to have separate restrooms/water fountains/seating areas for whites and blacks. After all, we're not denying any of these rights to any individual group, right?
On first impulse, I think that while segregation (in principle) is definitely an issue, it is not properly classified as a "civil rights" issue. Of course, historically we know that while blacks and whites were separate, they were certainly not equal.

Go tell this to historians.  They should probably stop calling it "The Civil Rights Movement."

Quote
Homosexuals are not a different group than heterosexuals?
Read: In modern America, homosexuals and heterosexuals are granted the same set of liberties - each group can and can't do the same things. Contrast to the Reconstruction Era - blacks and whites are granted different sets of liberties...one group can do something the other can't.

In Saudi Arabia, all people have the same religious rights.  They're all allowed to form Muslim churches, and no others.  See?  No infringement of rights there!
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #432 on: May 14, 2012, 04:31:52 PM »
Yeah, one of the reasons I don't hang around here as often as I used to is the way you and others treat other members. So I don't care much to respond to your objections because they are objections based on awful (and likely intentional) misunderstandings of what I said. Plus, your tone is insufferably condescending. But I'll respond for the sake of clearing up some misunderstanding.

Except it wouldn't make too much sense for a homosexual to "marry" someone of the opposite sex, would it? So they do not have the ability to marry in effect.
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.


This is just utterly bizarre.  By the exact same logic, gay marriage should be allowed for the exact same fucking reasons.

All I'm saying is that it's not unreasonable in every case for a homosexual to marry a person of the opposite sex (whether he be a full-on homosexual or one partially inclined to homosexuality).

Quote
Quote
Quote
EDIT: Some of the things that have been said in this thread truly shock me. By bosk's and H's logic, it must be not be a civil rights issue to have separate restrooms/water fountains/seating areas for whites and blacks. After all, we're not denying any of these rights to any individual group, right?
On first impulse, I think that while segregation (in principle) is definitely an issue, it is not properly classified as a "civil rights" issue. Of course, historically we know that while blacks and whites were separate, they were certainly not equal.

Go tell this to historians.  They should probably stop calling it "The Civil Rights Movement."

Are you serious? I blatantly referred to segregation in American history as a civil rights issue. Understand that when I spoke of "segregation", I meant it in the idealist sense. In the ideal, segregation is not a civil rights issue.

Quote
Quote
Homosexuals are not a different group than heterosexuals?
Read: In modern America, homosexuals and heterosexuals are granted the same set of liberties - each group can and can't do the same things. Contrast to the Reconstruction Era - blacks and whites are granted different sets of liberties...one group can do something the other can't.

In Saudi Arabia, all people have the same religious rights.  They're all allowed to form Muslim churches, and no others.  See?  No infringement of rights there!
I would define a "Civil Rights Issue" in America as something that violates the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Jim Crow laws violated the EPC, so Jim Crow laws were a civil rights issue. Segregation violated the EPC, so segregation was a civil rights issue. The present refraining from giving persons the right to marry someone of the same sex does not violate the EPC, so it is not a civil rights issue.

But what are "rights"? Simple question - in America, as a democracy, "rights" are what the people say they are. If America says that there is no right to marry someone of the same sex, then there is no right to marry someone of the same sex. It is wrong to claim that you have rights that don't exist.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 04:39:01 PM by Ħ »
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Ryzee

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #433 on: May 14, 2012, 04:40:46 PM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.



I'd love hear one of our gay poster's thoughts on this lovely bit of wisdom.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #434 on: May 14, 2012, 04:41:54 PM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.



I'd love hear one of our gay poster's thoughts on this lovely bit of wisdom.
You're too kind! It's people like you that make me love being on DTF. :)
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #435 on: May 14, 2012, 04:59:13 PM »
Just for the record, here's Oxford dictionary's definition of civil rights:

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plural noun   the rights of citizens to political and social freedom and equality.

And wikipedia's first paragaph:

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Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from unwarranted infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #436 on: May 14, 2012, 05:01:05 PM »
All Americans have been given the right to marry one non-minor that is of the opposite sex. The right is not withheld from any group.

This is the letter of the law as it stands now, yes. And while legally it may have two legs to stand on, more and more people are feeling that, just because a law is “fair” in the legal sense, we as a society can do better to make things more fair and equitable.

In the early 1800's most people thought the laws of the land with respect to slavery were fine.   

Societies progress.  Slavery is now viewed -even by those who once supported it- as repugnant.

I believe that the denial of homosexual marriage will eventually be seen in the same light.

Again:  Progress

Pretty much the opposite of conservatism.

That's just reality.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #437 on: May 14, 2012, 06:04:26 PM »
And so far, progress has had a pretty good track record in this country.
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Offline ehra

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #438 on: May 14, 2012, 06:26:08 PM »
Then inevitably you get the "you feel that way now but just wait until a stance you hold and feel strongly about is deemed unjust in the name of 'progress!'" reply. I'd probably be pissed when/if it happens to me too, but, ultimately, it'd still be for the better of where society is heading. I'd fucking hope that humanity eventually does away with any hypocritical, baseless, unjust prejudices I have that are currently considered acceptable.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #439 on: May 15, 2012, 04:52:27 AM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.
I have no idea where you got this from or why it makes sense to you.
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Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #440 on: May 15, 2012, 04:58:10 AM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.
I have no idea where you got this from or why it makes sense to you.
It doesn't happen that often, but it actually does occur. Especially in an culture where a man is expected to marry a woman at some point.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #441 on: May 15, 2012, 06:42:55 AM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.
I have no idea where you got this from or why it makes sense to you.
It doesn't happen that often, but it actually does occur. Especially in an culture where a man is expected to marry a woman at some point.

But would it happen in an open, non-discriminatory society with gay marriage?
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #442 on: May 15, 2012, 08:11:56 AM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.
I have no idea where you got this from or why it makes sense to you.
It doesn't happen that often, but it actually does occur. Especially in an culture where a man is expected to marry a woman at some point.

But would it happen in an open, non-discriminatory society with gay marriage?

Probably, but far less.  99% of those marriages are because of conflicted feelings and confusion, and usually lead to very unhappy lives, relationships, and can end up destroying the lives of the spouse and children.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #443 on: May 15, 2012, 09:06:28 AM »

What bugs me about that is we have some stuff written into our constitution that says "congress shall make no laws respecting any religion" or something along those lines, yet, states are being allowed to do just exactly that.

I think this issue is going to eventually reach the supreme court.

That's really not how it works.  The First Amendment can't be used to prevent people from voting on their beliefs.  What it can do is prevent formal incorporation of religion into state activities (like prayer in schools, or religious propaganda like "Intelligent Design").  But people are entitled to their opinions, including ones derived from their religious beliefs.  I don't know much about Constitutional Law, but I don't think a law like this violates the First Amendment.

Well, I guess what I really mean is I don't think we should be legislating the morality of any religion, which is what we seem to be doing with these gay marriage bans.  Yes, there are some people who are not religious that are against gay marriage, but the vast overwhelming majority of people who are voting to ban it are citing their objection to it based on their religious beliefs.  It just makes me uncomfortable that we're getting that close to legislating the specific moral code of one religion....particularly when we have a very good amount of proof that allowing homosexuals to marry does not cause any kind of problems (see: MA, VT, NY, et al)

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #444 on: May 15, 2012, 09:08:36 AM »
But by the same logic, one could easily call for the banning of charities.  I don't think there's any way to limit voting based on religious beliefs without infringing upon civil liberties.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #445 on: May 15, 2012, 09:15:03 AM »
But by the same logic, one could easily call for the banning of charities.  I don't think there's any way to limit voting based on religious beliefs without infringing upon civil liberties.

I'm not trying to "limit voting" at all.    I'm saying that we live in a secular society and have a secular government, but we have laws like "The Defense of Marriage Act" that define marriage as between one man and one woman and you can pretty much draw a straight line from that law to a Christian bible.

If we have a truly representative democracy that is supposed to function for all groups regardless of race, creed, religion, sex, etc,. I am just wondering if where this kind of specific, let's face it, discriminatory lawmaking has a place in what is supposedly an "inclusive" society.




Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #446 on: May 15, 2012, 09:16:27 AM »
Everyone will vote using their own personal beliefs, which will include religious ones.  I support that.
If a majority votes for something, it should be what is implemented*.  I support that.

*I also support a legal safeguard system that will make null and void any law that infringes of the rights of a group of people, regardless of how much of a majority voted for it.
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Offline Ryzee

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #447 on: May 15, 2012, 09:19:39 AM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.



I'd love hear one of our gay poster's thoughts on this lovely bit of wisdom.
You're too kind! It's people like you that make me love being on DTF. :)

Oh.  Yeah that was sarcastic.  Sorry for the confusion.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #448 on: May 15, 2012, 09:21:26 AM »
Yeah I think he was making a sarcastic jab at your sarcasm.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #449 on: May 15, 2012, 09:22:14 AM »
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.



I'd love hear one of our gay poster's thoughts on this lovely bit of wisdom.
You're too kind! It's people like you that make me love being on DTF. :)

Oh.  Yeah that was sarcastic.  Sorry for the confusion.

Pretty sure he got your sarcasm loud and clear, as evidenced by his sarcastic response.

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #450 on: May 15, 2012, 09:43:05 AM »
Except it wouldn't make too much sense for a homosexual to "marry" someone of the opposite sex, would it? So they do not have the ability to marry in effect.
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.


This is just utterly bizarre.  By the exact same logic, gay marriage should be allowed for the exact same fucking reasons.

All I'm saying is that it's not unreasonable in every case for a homosexual to marry a person of the opposite sex (whether he be a full-on homosexual or one partially inclined to homosexuality).
It's pretty damn unreasonable in most cases, actually. With the scientology-as-America's-national-religion example, this would be like saying "you know, not all people who go to scientologist religious services actually believe what they're hearing. Some just go anyway because they sing catchy songs and have free snacks. Therefore, equal rights".

Offline Ryzee

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #451 on: May 15, 2012, 09:44:43 AM »
Yeah I think he was making a sarcastic jab at your sarcasm.

It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.



I'd love hear one of our gay poster's thoughts on this lovely bit of wisdom.
You're too kind! It's people like you that make me love being on DTF. :)

Oh.  Yeah that was sarcastic.  Sorry for the confusion.

Pretty sure he got your sarcasm loud and clear, as evidenced by his sarcastic response.

Ninja'd

Yeah and I was making a sarcastic jab at his sarcastic jab at my sarcasm.  Sorry about it.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #452 on: May 15, 2012, 09:45:58 AM »
Except it wouldn't make too much sense for a homosexual to "marry" someone of the opposite sex, would it? So they do not have the ability to marry in effect.
It's been mentioned that people with homosexual preferences often marry someone of the opposite sex. And of course, it's also been mentioned that marriage doesn't need to be about the sexual relationship. Marriage can be about enriching the life of the person you're married to - even a person who is 100% homosexual has full access to this kind of marriage. So it does make sense for a homosexual to marry someone of the opposite sex.


This is just utterly bizarre.  By the exact same logic, gay marriage should be allowed for the exact same fucking reasons.

All I'm saying is that it's not unreasonable in every case for a homosexual to marry a person of the opposite sex (whether he be a full-on homosexual or one partially inclined to homosexuality).
It's pretty damn unreasonable in most cases, actually. With the scientology-as-America's-national-religion example, this would be like saying "you know, not all people who go to scientologist religious services actually believe what they're hearing. Some just go anyway because they sing catchy songs and have free snacks. Therefore, equal rights".

Or, "I go to Scientology meetings because I am terrified that people will know I am a Christian, and I desperatly want to fit in, even though it is against my true beliefs/identity."
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #453 on: May 15, 2012, 10:42:07 AM »
Everyone will vote using their own personal beliefs, which will include religious ones.  I support that.
If a majority votes for something, it should be what is implemented*.  I support that.

*I also support a legal safeguard system that will make null and void any law that infringes of the rights of a group of people, regardless of how much of a majority voted for it.

That's pretty much what I'm trying ( and mostly failing ) to articulate.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #454 on: May 15, 2012, 10:45:13 AM »
By the way, I was reading a news article that had a video clip in it with Mitt Romney making the bold claim that "Most Americans" believe marriage should be only between a man and a woman. 

He's actually incorrect, as demonstrated here:
https://factcheck.org/2012/05/do-most-americans-agree-with-romney-on-gay-marriage/

Clearly, it's not a large majority, but the trend is unmistakable.