Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 114216 times)

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #385 on: May 13, 2012, 11:14:44 AM »
Really? You think I believe that everyone should just stop procreating? You could have deduced (apparently) two things from my post:

1.) That I disapprove of the homosexual relationship norm of masking the identity of the father of potential children to be born to homosexual couples, etc.

or

2.) That I believe that everyone should just "stop having sex completely."


I cannot comprehend why option 2 was chosen.
Obviously I don't actually believe you believe that. I was showing you the result of your flawed logic: that a sexuality can be judged by its ability to theoretically cause incest.

And we've already shown you that there are systems in place to allow people to meet their half-siblings, and that homosexual parents don't have to get sperm/egg donations because they can adopt, so why do you keep arguing this ridiculous point?

Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #386 on: May 13, 2012, 11:39:25 AM »
Same sex marriage has been legal here for more then 10 years and absolutely none of the concerns raised by Omega and other have been shown to be the true. Children of same sex marriages are doing absolutely fine in school and life, and there haven't been any people calling to be wed with cartoon characters (hihi). If anything... all the 'dangers' concerning the 'gay lifestyle' (mostly STD concerns) have been minimizing by making same sex marriage legal, there is no secrecy any more and gay people can start building a secure future for themselves and their families. All these slippery slope arguments just don't go up in real life.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #387 on: May 13, 2012, 11:43:30 AM »
Same sex marriage has been legal here for more then 10 years and absolutely none of the concerns raised by Omega and other have been shown to be the true. Children of same sex marriages are doing absolutely fine in school and life, and there haven't been any people calling to be wed with cartoon characters (hihi). If anything... all the 'dangers' concerning the 'gay lifestyle' (mostly STD concerns) have been minimizing by making same sex marriage legal, there is no secrecy any more and gay people can start building a secure future for themselves and their families. All these slippery slope arguments just don't go up in real life.

I truly hope this post (like Sigz) doesn't go completely ignored.
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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #388 on: May 13, 2012, 11:53:17 AM »
Also some interesting stats:

In March 2006, Statistics Netherlands released estimates on the number of same-sex marriages performed in each year: 2,500 in 2001, 1,800 in 2002, 1,200 in 2004, and 1,100 in 2005.

(translated article about it:) https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coc.nl%2Fdopage.pl%3Fthema%3Dany%26pagina%3Dviewartikel%26artikel_id%3D835&act=url

the study is from 2006, but they show that already after the first year after introducing the law the amount of same sex marriages stabilized to about 3% of total marriages.

Offline ehra

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #389 on: May 13, 2012, 12:17:33 PM »
I'll be sure to tell my dad who raised me on his own, sacrificing well paying positions so that he could be home when he needed to be home for me, and lost contact with almost all of his friends and gave up the chance of meeting any other women so that he could spend the little free time he had with me that he was "taking away the justice" I deserved by not sticking with the kind of woman that'd threaten to jump out of a moving car while her own kid was watching in the back seat. What right did he have forcing me out of the chance of experiencing a natural upbringing?

I don't think that's the point.

It is. You can't be ok with what my dad did while also claiming that homosexual couples can't marry or shouldn't have children on the basis that children have some kind of right or obligation to be raised by a man and woman. Either he was in the wrong for parting with my mom and never bringing in a new mother figure into my life, or being risen by a man and a women isn't as important as you like to argue.

Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #390 on: May 13, 2012, 12:33:50 PM »
Same sex marriage has been legal here for more then 10 years and absolutely none of the concerns raised by Omega and other have been shown to be the true. Children of same sex marriages are doing absolutely fine in school and life, and there haven't been any people calling to be wed with cartoon characters (hihi). If anything... all the 'dangers' concerning the 'gay lifestyle' (mostly STD concerns) have been minimizing by making same sex marriage legal, there is no secrecy any more and gay people can start building a secure future for themselves and their families. All these slippery slope arguments just don't go up in real life.


I don't really have a horse in this race...but just as a point of clarification...

It may be true that YOU havn't heard of anyone "calling to be wed with cartoon characters"...but there HAS already been some people who *have* gone through ceremonies to "marry" their "virtual girlfriends"...

Now, it's only an extremely few people now...but what happens when it becomes more common?   What happens when the technology improves?   What happens when they become more realistic?

You can come up with all the logical arguments as to why it's not the same...*AND I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU*...   But *TO THEM* it's different.   And they might someday be able to set up a very logical argument as to why they should get benefits to take care of their "mates".    This would make *ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE TO ME WHATSOEVER*...it would be the most stupid and illogical thing ever.   But I don't see it as being any more "out in left field" than the idea of same sex marriage was 50-100 years ago. 

Personally, it doesn't matter to me.   Marriage has become less about "family" and more about "benefits"....it's become so secularized that I cannot see for the life of me why religion is even in the process at all.   

In my opinion, legal aspect of marriage should be handled by lawyers...not priests.   Don't they call it a "marriage contract"?   Why not take that to the next logical step?   A marriage contract should be just that...a *contract* drawn up by two agreeing parties.   If said parties then wish to have their marriage vows done in front of whatever God they worship, they can have a religious ceremony if they wish.      But even now, you're *technically* married the moment you sign the licence...not necessarily the moment you say your "I do's" in front of a priest.     I don't see why they don't just make the legal aspect of it a contract like any other, and the religious angle can be handled however you wish.

I don't condone homosexuality...but I don't see it as any worse than a man and woman living together without being married....or sex before marriage....etc..etc...

At the end of the day, I view "same sex marriage" as a political issue, *NOT* a religious issue...and since my deeply held personal beliefs are that religion and politics don't mix....all this bickering just makes me happy to be completely apolitical. 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 01:38:04 PM by jammindude »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #391 on: May 13, 2012, 12:38:50 PM »
Same sex marriage has been legal here for more then 10 years and absolutely none of the concerns raised by Omega and other have been shown to be the true. Children of same sex marriages are doing absolutely fine in school and life, and there haven't been any people calling to be wed with cartoon characters (hihi). If anything... all the 'dangers' concerning the 'gay lifestyle' (mostly STD concerns) have been minimizing by making same sex marriage legal, there is no secrecy any more and gay people can start building a secure future for themselves and their families. All these slippery slope arguments just don't go up in real life.

Not really going to step into this debate, but I'd like to say that it is great to hear an account of the reality of the situation, and not wildly extrapolated slippery slope arguments about incest and marrying R2-D2.
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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #392 on: May 13, 2012, 12:54:29 PM »
Same sex marriage has been legal here for more then 10 years and absolutely none of the concerns raised by Omega and other have been shown to be the true. Children of same sex marriages are doing absolutely fine in school and life, and there haven't been any people calling to be wed with cartoon characters (hihi). If anything... all the 'dangers' concerning the 'gay lifestyle' (mostly STD concerns) have been minimizing by making same sex marriage legal, there is no secrecy any more and gay people can start building a secure future for themselves and their families. All these slippery slope arguments just don't go up in real life.


I don't really have a horse in this race...but just as a point of clarification...

It may be true that YOU havn't heard of anyone "calling to be wed with cartoon characters"...but there HAS already been some people who *have* gone through ceremonies to "marry" their "virtual girlfriends"...

Now, it's only an extremely few people now...but what happens when it becomes more common?   What happens when the technology improves?   What happens when they become more realistic?



Look at the statistics I posted in my previous post, there is no slippery slope, the amount of same sex marriage is stable because only a small percentage of the population is gay and an even smaller percentage of those people wants to get married. The same will apply for people who want to marry cartoon characters, there will only be a very very very very very small percentage of the population who wants to marry a cartoon... let them be.. it's not like it will become more common, that's not how it works in real life. The vast majority of people will still be attracted to the opposite sex, legalizing cartoon marriages will not change that.

Offline rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #393 on: May 13, 2012, 01:22:16 PM »
FYI, Germany got on the bandwagon slightly after the Netherlands, but it is the same story there too. We got a few more happy people, and anybody yet has to marry R2-D2. Whatever you hear about same-sex marriage changing anything about society, it doesn't. Except those few more happy people, which is something the naysayers seem to avoid considering at all cost.

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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #394 on: May 13, 2012, 01:34:44 PM »
FYI, Germany got on the bandwagon slightly after the Netherlands, but it is the same story there too. We got a few more happy people, and anybody yet has to marry R2-D2. Whatever you hear about same-sex marriage changing anything about society, it doesn't.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #395 on: May 13, 2012, 01:36:53 PM »
Same sex marriage has been legal here for more then 10 years and absolutely none of the concerns raised by Omega and other have been shown to be the true. Children of same sex marriages are doing absolutely fine in school and life, and there haven't been any people calling to be wed with cartoon characters (hihi). If anything... all the 'dangers' concerning the 'gay lifestyle' (mostly STD concerns) have been minimizing by making same sex marriage legal, there is no secrecy any more and gay people can start building a secure future for themselves and their families. All these slippery slope arguments just don't go up in real life.


I don't really have a horse in this race...but just as a point of clarification...

It may be true that YOU havn't heard of anyone "calling to be wed with cartoon characters"...but there HAS already been some people who *have* gone through ceremonies to "marry" their "virtual girlfriends"...

Now, it's only an extremely few people now...but what happens when it becomes more common?   What happens when the technology improves?   What happens when they become more realistic?



Look at the statistics I posted in my previous post, there is no slippery slope, the amount of same sex marriage is stable because only a small percentage of the population is gay and an even smaller percentage of those people wants to get married. The same will apply for people who want to marry cartoon characters, there will only be a very very very very very small percentage of the population who wants to marry a cartoon... let them be.. it's not like it will become more common, that's not how it works in real life. The vast majority of people will still be attracted to the opposite sex, legalizing cartoon marriages will not change that.

Actually, that's a pretty good point.   And essentially backs up my argument about completely making marriage a legal contract.   Now, as to whether or not you'll ever be able to create a sentient virtual girlfriend who is able to sign a contract remains to be seen.   :corn
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #396 on: May 13, 2012, 01:47:40 PM »
Actually, that's a pretty good point.   And essentially backs up my argument about completely making marriage a legal contract.   Now, as to whether or not you'll ever be able to create a sentient virtual girlfriend who is able to sign a contract remains to be seen.   :corn

Well, this is why the example fails anyways. Even today, you have to sign a contract, and an inanimate object cant' sign a contract. It also prevents, ya know, people marrying dogs, and all that other ludicrous slippery slope things people put up as possible results.

Offline RuRoRul

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #397 on: May 13, 2012, 02:25:07 PM »
Indeed. You could have made the same case for not allowing women to vote, because increasing the parameters of who is allowed to vote would obviously inevitably lead to animals and fictional characters voting.

And I agree Jammindude - and I think that is what most people in support of this would have said all along. Marriage is a legal and societal concept, not (necessarily) a religious one. I'm fully in favour of churches not allowing gay people to have religious ceremonies if they don't want to. But since a non-religious marriage between, say, two atheists supposedly isn't the "true" marriage recognised under God either, why should religious people care if gay people want some of these marriages outside of their religion as well?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #398 on: May 13, 2012, 03:52:40 PM »
As I said, it was out of curiosity (that avatar of yours can be misleading)

I knew it!!! :lolpalm:
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Offline Sigz

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #399 on: May 13, 2012, 03:59:32 PM »
 :lol

On that note though, I've watched a bit of MLP and it's actually pretty funny.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #400 on: May 13, 2012, 04:00:04 PM »
What do you all think of just removing the term "marriage" from America's legal system? That way, everyone has the exact same right to civil union with whomever they choose, and the problem is solved.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #401 on: May 13, 2012, 04:01:31 PM »
What do you all think of just removing the term "marriage" from America's legal system? That way, everyone has the exact same right to civil union with whomever they choose, and the problem is solved.

That would be the ideal solution, but I can't see it happening any time soon.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #402 on: May 13, 2012, 04:33:24 PM »
What do you all think of just removing the term "marriage" from America's legal system? That way, everyone has the exact same right to civil union with whomever they choose, and the problem is solved.

That would be the ideal solution, but I can't see it happening any time soon.

Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #403 on: May 13, 2012, 04:59:28 PM »
Are there tax benefits to being married?

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #404 on: May 13, 2012, 07:03:44 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #405 on: May 13, 2012, 07:15:43 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

If one has the right to marry the person they love, and the other doesnt, how is there equality in rights?
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #406 on: May 13, 2012, 07:18:23 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

If one has the right to marry the person they love, and the other doesnt, how is there equality in rights?

I addressed this earlier. It's one thing to say "Gay men have the same rights as straight men - gay men are free to marry women", but given that marriage is inherently sexual, the inequality is unavoidable.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #407 on: May 13, 2012, 07:19:55 PM »
Are there tax benefits to being married?

Yes but as an example my wife and I have the most taken out on us so it's not that big.  There at other things like taxes on a house and kids that pay back more but do cost more.  It's a vicious circle. :lol
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #408 on: May 13, 2012, 09:21:29 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

Yeah, but by that logic, a gay man also has the same amount of rights as a straight man in Iran.  Which obviously isn't true.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #409 on: May 13, 2012, 09:26:33 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

I guess black men didn't face any problems either then. After all, they "could" vote, it's just that they didn't pass the literacy tests. They had the same right to education, forget that they were less well funded and worse.


Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #410 on: May 13, 2012, 09:32:59 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

I guess black men didn't face any problems either then. After all, they "could" vote, it's just that they didn't pass the literacy tests. They had the same right to education, forget that they were less well funded and worse.

Don't forget that they were completely equal under the law.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #411 on: May 13, 2012, 09:37:03 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

I get the logic. However imagine a law passes that says that the only religious institution that people could attend is The Church of Scientology. Christians, Jews and Muslims would not be allowed to attend their own places. By the logic you're discussing, they aren't being denied any rights, since EVERYONE has the right to attend The Church of Scientology.
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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #412 on: May 13, 2012, 09:37:26 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

Yeah, but by that logic, a gay man also has the same amount of rights as a straight man in Iran.  Which obviously isn't true.

And unfortunately the rights we like or we want are not global. Every country has their rights which are given to their people. Bosk's logic is absoluletly true but countries are wrong.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #413 on: May 13, 2012, 10:02:51 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

I get the logic. However imagine a law passes that says that the only religious institution that people could attend is The Church of Scientology. Christians, Jews and Muslims would not be allowed to attend their own places. By the logic you're discussing, they aren't being denied any rights, since EVERYONE has the right to attend The Church of Scientology.

Much better example.

Offline soundgarden

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #414 on: May 14, 2012, 06:47:35 AM »
I'll be sure to tell my dad who raised me on his own, sacrificing well paying positions so that he could be home when he needed to be home for me, and lost contact with almost all of his friends and gave up the chance of meeting any other women so that he could spend the little free time he had with me that he was "taking away the justice" I deserved by not sticking with the kind of woman that'd threaten to jump out of a moving car while her own kid was watching in the back seat. What right did he have forcing me out of the chance of experiencing a natural upbringing?


It is readily evident that, in principle, a parental unit of a man and a woman is superior to that of a single man or a single woman, or two men or two women, or many men and many women, etc.
Readily evident from what?  You are using your perceived ideal to justify a wishful ideal.

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Also to note is that allowing homosexuals to "marry" will most certainly lead to the possibility of incest. Consider; there are two female lesbians in a relationship who are intent on "having a child" which they obviously cannot have unless you involve a male. The procedures that are used now by many lesbian couples are procedures that mask the identity of the father so that it cannot and will not be known who the father is. A conscious, willful effort is being made so that one could not know who is the father. Once you have made that effort, you've produced a child who cannot know who his father is. If you don't know and have no way of ascertaining who you father is, then you cannot know who your sisters and brothers are either. And if you cannot know who your sisters and brothers are, there is no way you could avoid having sexual relations with them.

Are you against adoption as well?  Since an adopted child can, potentially, sleep with his/her sister if they are separated early and contact not maintained.

Once again Omega, you are making this grand claims with absolutely no facts from reality; history nor the sciences; but only from your ideal world in your head  Claims are nothing without facts and evidence.

Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #415 on: May 14, 2012, 01:15:37 PM »
It is readily evident that, in principle, a parental unit of a man and a woman is superior to that of a single man or a single woman, or two men or two women, or many men and many women, etc.
Studies? I'm actually interested in this topic, and I've found many studies pointing to better results for children raised by two women. Of course, you have to factor in the fact that they get to pick and choose the best sperm available and that it's never a "mistake" when you get a lesbian couple wanting a child - so they'll absolutely to their best to raise it.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #416 on: May 14, 2012, 01:54:22 PM »
I'm liking what Bosk said earlier on. A gay man has the same amount of rights as a straight man. So this isn't really a civil rights issue - it's something else. I follow.

I get the logic. However imagine a law passes that says that the only religious institution that people could attend is The Church of Scientology. Christians, Jews and Muslims would not be allowed to attend their own places. By the logic you're discussing, they aren't being denied any rights, since EVERYONE has the right to attend The Church of Scientology.
I agree with that. If religious rights weren't granted by the govt, and everyone was given the same option (e.g. right to attend Church of Scientology or not), then it wouldn't be a civil rights issue. It would be wrong, yes, but not on the basis of civil rights.
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Online Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #417 on: May 14, 2012, 01:58:21 PM »
Why not? It's a matter of infringing on liberties.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #418 on: May 14, 2012, 01:59:45 PM »
Scientologists are allowed to go to their religious services, but Christians and Muslims and Jews and everybody else aren't? How is that not a civil rights issue?

Offline lordxizor

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #419 on: May 14, 2012, 02:04:09 PM »
It is readily evident that, in principle, a parental unit of a man and a woman is superior to that of a single man or a single woman, or two men or two women, or many men and many women, etc.
Studies? I'm actually interested in this topic, and I've found many studies pointing to better results for children raised by two women. Of course, you have to factor in the fact that they get to pick and choose the best sperm available and that it's never a "mistake" when you get a lesbian couple wanting a child - so they'll absolutely to their best to raise it.
I don't think there are many who would argue that all things being equal (child was wanted, two loving, involved parents, etc) that having a male and female parent is best. Don't know of any studies to confirm however. It would be hard to measure the success of a parent or parenting team really. What do you look at? Grades? College degrees? Lack of criminal convictions? Mental health? Every parent would have a different definition of a successful kid.

Like you mentioned, the one big advantage of same sex couples is that their kids are significantly more likely to be wanted, since having an "oops" is pretty difficult. So I would venture to guess that there's a higher % of involved parents in same sex couples.