Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 57538 times)

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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2012, 09:36:52 PM »
This whole thing reminds me of my scripture class. A girl said that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because gays aren't suitable parents as a stable child needs both a mom and a dad to grow up properly....
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Offline orcus116

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2012, 09:36:57 PM »
You're in favor of denying rights to a group of people based on a trait they don't control. What would you care to call it?

As I've written extensively on, one cannot deny the "right" for same-sex people to "marry" because "marriage" between two people of the same sex is a logical absurdity. One cannot pass a law to repeal gravity any more than one can pass a law to "allow" same-sex "marriages."

I can't even wrap my head around this. Marriage is some man-made concept that has no actually root in the universe aside from some arbitrary rules governed by archaic principles.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2012, 09:37:17 PM »
and it's absolutely disgusting.

Why is it that us Christians (supposedly I'm not Christian because I don't believe in banning gay marriage) just can't let other people be and mind our own business. If it's one thing I have found, too many Christians are focused on others and their sins and not paying enough attention to their own hate and their own sins. Essentially, too concerned outwardly and not concerned inwardly.

Paul made a clear distinction in our responsibility towards those who are believers and those who are not.  He noted that we would have to go out of the world, otherwise (I Corinthians 5).  From this standpoint, I think your point is well taken.  Especially the second half of your statement.  Jesus warned of seeing the speck in your brothers eye but ignoring the log in your own. 
Jesus later in the text (Matt 7) highlights that there is room for believers making judgment, but it must begin with this standpoint of humility

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2012, 09:37:46 PM »
This whole thing reminds me of my scripture class. A girl said that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because gays aren't suitable parents as a stable child needs both a mom and a dad to grow up properly....

Welcome to Omega's argument:

http://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=32006.0
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Offline Omega

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2012, 09:38:15 PM »
So if two straight people get married, but decide to never have children, and follow through with that decision for their entire lives, is that a 'logical absurdity'?

Of course not. Feel free to read all about my "In principle!" speech over at the closed homosexuality thread.

Quote
Also, most western governments provide spousal benefits, and as such, marriage, even just in the legal sense, is about more than regulating procreation.

That kinda fits in into the "overseeing the obligations attendant upon procreation from a socio-economic view," doesn't it?
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Offline Omega

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2012, 09:39:42 PM »
This whole thing reminds me of my scripture class. A girl said that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because gays aren't suitable parents as a stable child needs both a mom and a dad to grow up properly....

Welcome to Omega's argument:

http://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=32006.0

 :yarr
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2012, 09:41:06 PM »
Well either way it's pretty obvious that NC is more likely to abuse their own constitution than face the ugly reality of their own society. If you can deflect your own failure onto someone else, the hope is it'll make you forget how much you failed yourself.

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Offline Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2012, 09:43:41 PM »
I also think there should be a lot more trials before getting married. In Judaism you have to go through a hell of a lot of work to convert. I think marriage should be similar. I think people should have to prove to the authorities that they want to get married. Simply saying "Yea...I guess I'll marry that person" shouldn't be enough. As of now, marriage is a concept that has virtually no meaning what soever. And I say this as a person who hopes to marry some day.
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Offline Omega

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2012, 09:44:20 PM »
Well either way it's pretty obvious that NC is more likely to abuse their own constitution than face the ugly reality of their own society. If you can deflect your own failure onto someone else, the hope is it'll make you forget how much you failed yourself.

rumborak

What?


@Omega: Shouldn't your divinely ordained morals provide at least some benefit in this matter?

rumborak

And how so (redux)?
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Offline TL

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2012, 09:44:23 PM »
@Omega;

I went to the linked thread, and stopped reading when you equated gay marriage to some dude wanting to marry a cartoon character.
If your warped little mind actually thinks that's anything remotely near a reasonable argument, you're beyond hope on this issue. I'm done here.

Offline SystematicThought

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2012, 09:44:50 PM »
but it must begin with this standpoint of humility
I agree with what you said, but I suppose I don't see it with humility much anymore. At least not from the generation of Christians I am growing up with and going to school with. I see more outright hate and disgust for other people's beliefs, ways of life, and cultures. I don't see much humility in it anymore and it makes me scared for the future of Christianity. I long for humility to be back, but with the way gay marriage is taught in some private schools and churches, it's being taught with hate and intolerance. So much so that it's breeding hate for all life that is off the path of Christianity.

My Script teacher, for instance, basically implies that all secularist people are horrible people and have no redeeming qualities. Its views like this, and with all due respect, Omega's viewpoint that scares me.

Jesus taught to love all people equally and to treat others as you want to be treated. With the way some Christians handle gay marriage and gays themselves, is this ideal really being upheld?
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Offline Omega

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 09:46:26 PM »
@Omega;

I went to the linked thread, and stopped reading when you equated gay marriage to some dude wanting to marry a cartoon character.
If your warped little mind actually thinks that's anything remotely near a reasonable argument, you're beyond hope on this issue. I'm done here.

That is literally just scratching the surface, but, hey, uh ya.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2012, 09:47:52 PM »
@Omega;

I went to the linked thread, and stopped reading when you equated gay marriage to some dude wanting to marry a cartoon character.
If your warped little mind actually thinks that's anything remotely near a reasonable argument, you're beyond hope on this issue. I'm done here.

knock if the insults TL.  this is your warning

Offline rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2012, 09:48:28 PM »
On another note, good for MA and other liberal states. We get a good amount of "brain drain" fugitives here.

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Offline Omega

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2012, 09:48:40 PM »
My Script teacher, for instance, basically implies that all secularist people are horrible people and have no redeeming qualities. Its views like this, and with all due respect, Omega's viewpoint that scares me.

Uh...when did I say that secularists are horrible people who have no redeeming qualities?
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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2012, 09:49:36 PM »
Views on gay marriage. Sorry, should have separated the two
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2012, 09:49:57 PM »
My Script teacher, for instance, basically implies that all secularist people are horrible people and have no redeeming qualities. Its views like this, and with all due respect, Omega's viewpoint that scares me.

Uh...when did I say that secularists are horrible people who have no redeeming qualities?

Pretty much here:

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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2012, 09:50:07 PM »
Guys, please don't feed Omega again.  He's not going to budge on his very strange position on what marriage is or isn't or how long its been around (fact: its a manmade institution governed by old traditions), and no amount of rational argument is going to change that.  The last thread was a shitshow and frankly I'm too pissed off at 61% of my state to give a damn about what he thinks.  I can only hope it gets taken to court and is repealed as fast as possible.  I will admit its pretty damn hard to resist Internet-screaming at him about why he's wrong, though.

I'd also like to add this amendment doesn't just screw over gay people, it screws over any two consenting adults who want to be legally recognized as being "together" without marriage.  Civil unions, domestic partnerships, etc. are gone, and so are all the benefits of such relationships.  According to polls, it seems that a significant of supporters weren't clear on what they were voting for.  They just saw the change to define marriage and leaped at it.  Doesn't help that gay marriage was already illegal in the state. 

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2012, 09:53:09 PM »
but it must begin with this standpoint of humility
I agree with what you said, but I suppose I don't see it with humility much anymore. At least not from the generation of Christians I am growing up with and going to school with. I see more outright hate and disgust for other people's beliefs, ways of life, and cultures. I don't see much humility in it anymore and it makes me scared for the future of Christianity. I long for humility to be back, but with the way gay marriage is taught in some private schools and churches, it's being taught with hate and intolerance. So much so that it's breeding hate for all life that is off the path of Christianity.

My Script teacher, for instance, basically implies that all secularist people are horrible people and have no redeeming qualities. Its views like this, and with all due respect, Omega's viewpoint that scares me.

Jesus taught to love all people equally and to treat others as you want to be treated. With the way some Christians handle gay marriage and gays themselves, is this ideal really being upheld?

I have always been fascinated with the fact that Jesus was a man of deep conviction and the highest standards regarding morals and truth.  He spoke the truth boldly and courageously and held to his convictions even to death....but, amazingly, the "sinners" loved hanging out with him.  I think it was his humility in the midst of his convictions.  I don't think humility is saying that "sin is ok," but it does invite people to listen when they know that you genuinely care.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2012, 09:53:44 PM »
Guys, please don't feed Omega again.  He's not going to budge on his very strange position on what marriage is or isn't or how long its been around (fact: its a manmade institution governed by old traditions), and no amount of rational argument is going to change that.  The last thread was a shitshow and frankly I'm too pissed off at 61% of my state to give a damn about what he thinks.  I can only hope it gets taken to court and is repealed as fast as possible.  I will admit its pretty damn hard to resist Internet-screaming at him about why he's wrong, though.

I'd also like to add this amendment doesn't just screw over gay people, it screws over any two consenting adults who want to be legally recognized as being "together" without marriage.  Civil unions, domestic partnerships, etc. are gone, and so are all the benefits of such relationships.  According to polls, it seems that a significant of supporters weren't clear on what they were voting for.  They just saw the change to define marriage and leaped at it.  Doesn't help that gay marriage was already illegal in the state. 


So how about we all agree to stay on topic (meaning the bill itself), and if Omega or one of the rest of us derails the thread it gets locked? Good?
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Offline Nick

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2012, 09:53:59 PM »
This isn't a law, not much to go to court about Matt. And sadly I assume this will now require 60% of the vote to change, which likely won't happen for quite awhile.
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2012, 09:58:19 PM »
You know, after not being able to discriminate against the "coloreds" anymore, people needed a new minority to oppress.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2012, 09:58:42 PM »
The last time North Carolina amended their constitution on marriage it was to ban interracial marriage.

This of all posts summed it up IMHO.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2012, 10:02:34 PM »
Pro-marriage? Fine, make divorce illegal. No cherry picking allowed if you're going to be that vigilant about it.
Ya know, that's actually a damn good point.  None of these "sanctity of marriage!" assholes really seems to care at all about divorce.

Before this thread turns into 9 pages about cartoonaphobes or whatever, let me just say that I actually support the idea of divorce becoming a difficult thing to get. The whole "irreconcilable differences" thing is just horrible. Obviously if a marriage is abusive, or harmful or something, then yea. But when people can get divorced for any reason what soever it actually makes the concept of marriage (till death do us part) pretty null and void.
Believe it or not, I actually agree completely with this. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2012, 10:07:20 PM »
I don't think there are a lot disagreeing with it. Reality is, as usual, that marriage has the meaning you imbue it with. Nobody, not even a deity, can make something meaningful  unless you do yourself.

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Offline Nick

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2012, 10:11:51 PM »
I don't think there are a lot disagreeing with it. Reality is, as usual, that marriage has the meaning you imbue it with. Nobody, not even a deity, can make something meaningful  unless you do yourself.

rumborak

Which is why I think marriage should stay between heterosexual couples as that is how it has come to be understood. On the flip side I believe that civil unions with the same legal benefits as marriage should be allowed. I'd love nothing more than to see the divorce rates of marriage one day doubling that of civil union couples.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 10:19:14 PM by Nick »
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2012, 10:16:19 PM »
Marriage doesn't exist merely so that Bob and Steve can play House together in their forties.
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Offline Adami

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2012, 10:17:32 PM »
I don't think there are a lot disagreeing with it. Reality is, as usual, that marriage has the meaning you imbue it with. Nobody, not even a deity, can make something meaningful  unless you do yourself.

rumborak

Which is why I think marriage should stay between same-sex couples as that is how it has come to be understood. On the flip side I believe that civil unions with the same legal benefits as marriage should be allowed. I'd love nothing more than to see the divorce rates of marriage one day doubling that of civil union couples.

I know that's a typo you made there, but it's finally a typo I agree with.
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Offline j

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2012, 02:11:40 AM »
Adami making some great points up in this otherwise shitty thread.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2012, 04:21:07 AM »
One problem I have with Omega's stance on what marriage is for is that he says the primary point of marriage is the procreation and nurturing of children.  I don't think that is the historical main point at all, but rather a side effect.  After all, people can certainly procreate and raise children without documentation or rings on their fingers, and have been doing so for hundreds of thousands of years.

Rather, the historical point of marriage was financial, i.e. property ownership.  Women were the property of the men, and one of their jobs was to raise the children.  See also dowery and bride price.

So, since that aspect of marriage has certainly changed in the civilized world over the last thousand years or so, why can't other aspects change as well?
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2012, 05:29:56 AM »
Some people are absolutely terrified of change, and have some inate need to have certain things stay static and set in concrete forever.  Thats fine, until they start making their own insecurities a matter of law.  Sad.
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Offline robwebster

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2012, 06:18:45 AM »
This is probably a suggestion that's been made millions of times by millions of people - I don't really follow these debates, so I don't know. But, right. If the opposition to marriage is broadly based on religious lines, can we not make "marriage" an exclusively faith-based thing? So it's up to the church. Atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers of any gender combination can get civil partnerships, and make it legally binding, with perks to match. Christians can unite in the eyes of God.

So Christian "marriages" take place in a church, under the eyes of God, and the church decides who's allowed to marry based on their interpretation of their religious text. Secular "weddings" have nothing to do with God nor the bible, but are still a legally binding declaration of companionship, partnership, which broadly take the same structure as other ceremonies of union with aisles and guests of honour and kissing the bride and so on and so forth.

Because as an atheist, (or agnostic, depending on which day of the week it is, but today is an atheist day,) I would be totally fine with the church not recognising my wedding to my wife as long as my friends, my family, the state and the government recognised it. So the party's different, and you're not claiming to be together in the eyes of God, and we might not use the word "marriage," but the law treats you the same.

Probably loads of loopholes I've missed... but would that satisfy you, Omega? And other agnostics, and Christians, and particularly any gay readers?

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2012, 06:33:17 AM »
Pro-marriage? Fine, make divorce illegal. No cherry picking allowed if you're going to be that vigilant about it.
Ya know, that's actually a damn good point.  None of these "sanctity of marriage!" assholes really seems to care at all about divorce.

Because we really need to preserve the "sanctity" of an institution whose ceremony you can have performed by an Elvis impersonator at a drive-through in Las Vegas.  :\

Offline jsem

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2012, 06:41:39 AM »
To tackle some things here, let me begin with Omega:
What you are is doing is defining marriage and pushing your own definition as law. Partly you say it's about reproduction... but what about a heterosexual couple who gets married but they have no intentions to have children - is that OK? Why is your opinion on what the purpose of marriage should be more sacred?

And to rob:
Because as an atheist, (or agnostic, depending on which day of the week it is, but today is an atheist day,) I would be totally fine with the church not recognising my wedding to my wife as long as my friends, my family, the state and the government recognised it. So the party's different, and you're not claiming to be together in the eyes of God, and we might not use the word "marriage," but the law treats you the same.
The state shouldn't recognize it either. IMO there should be no governmental involvement in ANY way. Let churches and private contractors marry whom they want in any way they want without licensure requirements. To settle disputes that could happen over custody etc, there should be written contracts. There's actually such a thing as marriage contracts in some cultures. If there should be any state involvement, it should be to uphold such contracts.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2012, 06:49:37 AM »
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