Author Topic: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"  (Read 61026 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #210 on: May 10, 2012, 03:55:10 AM »
just because you disagree doesn't  mean those people are self righteous, ignorant morons. You can kick and scream at me all you want about it, but just because someone doesn't agree with you make them any less right. It's clear you believe something different, which is fine. Just don't say they're ignorant morons. If anything, it makes you look like an ignorant moron. You don't know every single voter who voted. Etc.
Yeah, but the people who voted for this amendment are self righteous, ignorant morons.

This amendment didn't accomplish anything positive; it only accomplished negative things.  It made the only valid, legally recognized union in the state of North Carolina a marriage between one man and one woman.  It was supported by religious fundamentalists who are against gay marriage.  But gay marriage was already not legal here in North Carolina.  This new amendment will also basically void any other civil unions already in place, whether between gays or straights.  It will also put in jeopardy many rights and privileges currently enjoyed by children of non-married couples.  It is a poorly written law that went largely unexamined by the majority of people who supported it, largely because they were just voting for it because it was "anti-gay marriage" - which, as I said, was already illegal in North Carolina.
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Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #211 on: May 10, 2012, 05:24:15 AM »
I disagree. On a spiritual level, those points you brought up must have been considered an unfortunate side effect. I'm pretty sure the straight civil unions will be fixed up somehow. Hef, you made incredibly valid reasons for why the ban may not be a good thing. However, you can't assume that people are on the same thinking wave lengths as you. I could see it as something in the same vein as using aborted fetuses in stem cell research. While there is nothing wrong with part of the issue, the fact that aborted fetuses would be used is something some peoPle won't get over. I hope that makes sense.

I'm sure y'all have seen my views on the subject before. And I know I'm playing devils advocate right now. However, I'm sitting here and thinking , despite me not caring of homosexuals marry, I can't honestly say I wouldn't have voted in support of the ban. If I voted against it, I feel like I would be being dishonest with what I believe. If I voted for it, I'd be in alignment with what I believe personally. Howerver, I'd be unfairly punishing others for something that really isnt my business. However, I could always skip the ballot item.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #212 on: May 10, 2012, 05:36:39 AM »
That's oversimplifying things just a little bit, don't ya think, "it will be fixed up somehow." Not saying I have an answer myself, but that definitely isn't one.

Also, I think Hef's point wasn't so much his personal disagreement with the bill as the fact that since gay marriage already is illegal in NC, and as such it was redundant at best, and has horrendous negative side effects at worst.
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Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #213 on: May 10, 2012, 05:41:29 AM »
That's oversimplifying things just a little bit, don't ya think, "it will be fixed up somehow." Not saying I have an answer myself, but that definitely isn't one.

Also, I think Hef's point wasn't so much his personal disagreement with the bill as the fact that since gay marriage already is illegal in NC, and as such it was redundant at best, and has horrendous negative side effects at worst.

I understand that. However, there are people who will let their beliefs supersede. It's not wrong for them to do so. I can't sit here and tell people that they're wrong for believing what they do. I can think/believe they're wrong, but I can't tell them. I believe God places different things on people's hearts. So, who am I to tell people they are wrong?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #214 on: May 10, 2012, 05:43:48 AM »
So instead you'll vote for a law that tells people they're wrong.
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Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #215 on: May 10, 2012, 05:47:48 AM »
So instead you'll vote for a law that tells people they're wrong.

There is a line. When I look at the ballot (granted I haven't seen the prop that was on the ballot) I take it as what do I, Christian Y., personally believe on the issue. That's why I posted that I am conflicted on the issue. I'd probably end up skipping the prop.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #216 on: May 10, 2012, 05:48:34 AM »
You just said you would've voted for it.
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Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #217 on: May 10, 2012, 05:52:38 AM »
I said I can't say I wouldn't. There is a difference.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #218 on: May 10, 2012, 06:07:47 AM »
In an effort to lighten things up just a tiny bit:



Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #219 on: May 10, 2012, 06:09:27 AM »
It is a poorly written law that went largely unexamined by the majority of people who supported it, largely because they were just voting for it because it was "anti-gay marriage" - which, as I said, was already illegal in North Carolina.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #220 on: May 10, 2012, 06:11:25 AM »


 :lol

Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #221 on: May 10, 2012, 06:22:16 AM »
 ::) ::)

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #222 on: May 10, 2012, 06:38:22 AM »
BTW, as long as we are wanting our laws on marriage to conform to what the Bible has to say about marriage, here is a gem from Deuteronomy:

21:10 When you go out to do battle with your enemies and the Lord your God allows you to prevail and you take prisoners, 21:11 if you should see among them an attractive woman whom you wish to take as a wife, 21:12 you may bring her back to your house. She must shave her head, trim her nails, 21:13 discard the clothing she was wearing when captured, and stay in your house, lamenting for her father and mother for a full month. After that you may have sexual relations with her and become her husband and she your wife. 21:14 If you are not pleased with her, then you must let her go where she pleases. You cannot in any case sell her; you must not take advantage of her, since you have already humiliated her.

And this is obviously how the laws should be amended to deal with rotten children.  Also from Deuteronomy:

21:18 If a person has a stubborn, rebellious son who pays no attention to his father or mother, and they discipline him to no avail, 21:19 his father and mother must seize him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his city. 21:20 They must declare to the elders of his city, “Our son is stubborn and rebellious and pays no attention to what we say – he is a glutton and drunkard.” 21:21 Then all the men of his city must stone him to death. In this way you will purge out wickedness from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid.

And don't give me any of that "Christians aren't bound by Old Testament laws" crap, because the Christians passing these laws are damn sure taking their definition of marriage from the Old Testament.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #223 on: May 10, 2012, 06:39:07 AM »
Omega: In addition to what Adami said; the other thing is your very clear disregard for historical facts.  You are making grand claims based on a argument that may be internally coherent, but has no basis in history.

That is what, I think, is driving people a little bonkers.

Offline Rick

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #224 on: May 10, 2012, 06:40:45 AM »
BTW, as long as we are wanting our laws on marriage to conform to what the Bible has to say about marriage, here is a gem from Deuteronomy:

[...]

And this is obviously how the laws should be amended to deal with rotten children.  Also from Deuteronomy:

[...]

And don't give me any of that "Christians aren't bound by Old Testament laws" crap, because the Christians passing these laws are damn sure taking their definition of marriage from the Old Testament.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.



;)

Offline soundgarden

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #225 on: May 10, 2012, 06:43:47 AM »
BTW, as long as we are wanting our laws on marriage to conform to what the Bible has to say about marriage, here is a gem from Deuteronomy:

21:10 When you go out to do battle with your enemies and the Lord your God allows you to prevail and you take prisoners, 21:11 if you should see among them an attractive woman whom you wish to take as a wife, 21:12 you may bring her back to your house. She must shave her head, trim her nails, 21:13 discard the clothing she was wearing when captured, and stay in your house, lamenting for her father and mother for a full month. After that you may have sexual relations with her and become her husband and she your wife. 21:14 If you are not pleased with her, then you must let her go where she pleases. You cannot in any case sell her; you must not take advantage of her, since you have already humiliated her.

And this is obviously how the laws should be amended to deal with rotten children.  Also from Deuteronomy:

21:18 If a person has a stubborn, rebellious son who pays no attention to his father or mother, and they discipline him to no avail, 21:19 his father and mother must seize him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his city. 21:20 They must declare to the elders of his city, “Our son is stubborn and rebellious and pays no attention to what we say – he is a glutton and drunkard.” 21:21 Then all the men of his city must stone him to death. In this way you will purge out wickedness from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid.

And don't give me any of that "Christians aren't bound by Old Testament laws" crap, because the Christians passing these laws are damn sure taking their definition of marriage from the Old Testament.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

But this is not necessarily with Christianity only; all religions exhibit similar beliefs, at some point, when it comes to marriage.  This only furthers the notion that "god's laws" is merely an extrapolation of pre-history human relations which were, understandably, very ignorant of the world.

Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #226 on: May 10, 2012, 06:53:51 AM »
How were they ignorant?

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #227 on: May 10, 2012, 07:22:45 AM »
How were they ignorant?

wut

How would we count the ways that Bronze Age peoples were ignorant?  They were ignorant of pretty much everything.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #228 on: May 10, 2012, 07:24:31 AM »
If I voted for it, I'd be in alignment with what I believe personally. However, I'd be unfairly punishing others for something that really isnt my business.

Matthew 7:12 - So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

I'm sure this would fall under the things that you believe personally.  You would not like if someone denied you the opportunity to marry Courtney.  You love her and want to celebrate it in marriage, which is awesome.  Gay people just want the same thing.  For any Christian to say that denying gay people that opportunity coincides with your beliefs as a Christian comes into direct opposition to the verse above.  A verse that is so well known, it has been termed the "golden rule".

For the record, my intention wasn't to single you out, because in the same breath you said that you'd be punishing people for something that isn't your business, which is the preferable way to look at things.  I wish more people looked at it that way.  It isn't the business of anybody else.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #229 on: May 10, 2012, 07:28:14 AM »
How were they ignorant?

You know that world in which people thought the world was flat, that personality was determined by the existence of fluids called "humors," and horrendous diseases could be cured by prayer and/or leeches? This is at least 2000 years before that.

Anyway, what I actually came here to post: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/us/politics/obamas-watershed-move-on-gay-marriage.html?_r=1&hp&gwh=B3CEF19A21B459432B49CBC4D2CB3A15
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Offline snapple

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #230 on: May 10, 2012, 08:11:08 AM »
I'm waiting to see how that stuff has anything to do with what Hef posted. That is what was called ignorant.

Also, I am a firm believer in the power of prayer and that God can do anything. So, I believe that prayer can heal.

Furthermore, I understand history and when which ages occurred. I understand your point, but they certainly didn't understand the same concepts we do today. Mostly vdcause of the technology. To call them ignorant is short sighted and narrow.

Offline rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #231 on: May 10, 2012, 08:55:49 AM »
Prayer doesn't exactly have the best track record. Basing societal standards on the hope that prayers will fix it is, well....

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #232 on: May 10, 2012, 09:00:28 AM »
Actually, ignorant is exactly the term that should be used.  If you have negative association with the word, that is a you problem.  The term is completely appropriate.

Definition of IGNORANT
1a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 09:06:10 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline soundgarden

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #233 on: May 10, 2012, 09:06:32 AM »
I'm waiting to see how that stuff has anything to do with what Hef posted. That is what was called ignorant.

Also, I am a firm believer in the power of prayer and that God can do anything. So, I believe that prayer can heal.

Furthermore, I understand history and when which ages occurred. I understand your point, but they certainly didn't understand the same concepts we do today. Mostly vdcause of the technology. To call them ignorant is short sighted and narrow.

1) As Rumborak said, prayer does not work.  It gives you hope and hope is inherently optimistic and non realistic.  By your view, the Westboro Baptist folks were successful in their prayer for soldiers to die.

2) They are ignorant to the discoveries of later sciences.  (Being ignorant is not an insult by the way).  Left-handedness was a defect.  Homosexuality is a choice.  Women are inherently inferior.  All of these were built into cultures, and all of these were proven terribly wrong.

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #234 on: May 10, 2012, 09:10:13 AM »
I'm waiting to see how that stuff has anything to do with what Hef posted. That is what was called ignorant.

Also, I am a firm believer in the power of prayer and that God can do anything. So, I believe that prayer can heal.

Furthermore, I understand history and when which ages occurred. I understand your point, but they certainly didn't understand the same concepts we do today. Mostly vdcause of the technology. To call them ignorant is short sighted and narrow.

1) As Rumborak said, prayer does not work.  It gives you hope and hope is inherently optimistic and non realistic.

2) They are ignorant to the discoveries of later sciences.  (Being ignorant is not an insult by the way).  Left-handedness was a defect.  Homosexuality is a choice.  Women are inherently inferior.  All of these were built into cultures, and all of these were proven terribly wrong.

1) IMO, prayer gives a person a way to feel as if they are doing something about a particular thing they truly have no control over.  For example, praying for a soldiers safe return, or a child recovering from a terminal illness.

2) Yes, all proven terribly wrong exept the part about Left-handedness.  Evil, insidious Lefty's.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 09:16:26 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #235 on: May 10, 2012, 09:15:21 AM »
I'm waiting to see how that stuff has anything to do with what Hef posted. That is what was called ignorant.

Also, I am a firm believer in the power of prayer and that God can do anything. So, I believe that prayer can heal.

Furthermore, I understand history and when which ages occurred. I understand your point, but they certainly didn't understand the same concepts we do today. Mostly vdcause of the technology. To call them ignorant is short sighted and narrow.

1) As Rumborak said, prayer does not work.  It gives you hope and hope is inherently optimistic and non realistic.  By your view, the Westboro Baptist folks were successful in their prayer for soldiers to die.

2) They are ignorant to the discoveries of later sciences.  (Being ignorant is not an insult by the way).  Left-handedness was a defect.  Homosexuality is a choice.  Women are inherently inferior.  All of these were built into cultures, and all of these were proven terribly wrong.

I misread Westboro as Westeros. :lol
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #236 on: May 10, 2012, 09:18:12 AM »
2) Yes, all proven terribly wrong exept the part about Left-handedness.  Evil, insidious Lefty's.

True true, not without reason are they called "sinister" in Latin.

1) As Rumborak said, prayer does not work.  It gives you hope and hope is inherently optimistic and non realistic.

Not only that, but it's also incredibly calloused to essentially say "no, I don't grant you the same right that I have. But hey, I prayed for you. I hope it's all good."

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #237 on: May 10, 2012, 09:35:45 AM »
Yeah, I just dont get the rational for the ban.

It is like if the Jewish population was the majority in a state, and they voted to make it illegal for anyone to eat pork or shellfish.

mmmmmmm....bacon wrapped scallops.
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #238 on: May 10, 2012, 10:08:52 AM »
I won't go so far as to say prayer doesn't work.

But if I'm hurt or sick, I will ask someone to pray for me while I'm on the way to the doctor's office or hospital.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #239 on: May 10, 2012, 11:14:41 AM »
I won't go so far as to say prayer doesn't work.

But if I'm hurt or sick, I will ask someone to pray for me while I'm on the way to the doctor's office or hospital.

Sure, its a show of compassion and hope for you to get better.  If someone says she would pray for me I would be very grateful.  But it would be very naive of me to think that it could somehow compel a supernatural being to intervene.

Offline Odysseus

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #240 on: May 10, 2012, 11:23:48 AM »
I've overlooked nothing and am aware of who Christ was and is, and what he taught his Jewish bretheren through scripture (from the Torah) and what he teaches those who care to hear.

Ok so far...

My point was/is Christ didn't/doesn't endorse killing Homosexuals....

How could he teach the Jewish Law, including Leviticus, without endorsing that part of the Law?

I agree that the gospels say nothing directly about homosexuality, but I'm interested to establish where you get your information as to which parts of the Jewish Law Jesus included and which he left out. I'm unaware of any of this being specified in his teachings.

Offline Odysseus

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #241 on: May 10, 2012, 11:25:49 AM »
In an effort to lighten things up just a tiny bit:



That is great!!  :lol :tup

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #242 on: May 10, 2012, 11:35:15 AM »
I won't go so far as to say prayer doesn't work.

But if I'm hurt or sick, I will ask someone to pray for me while I'm on the way to the doctor's office or hospital.

You may want to reconsider that.  ;)

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #243 on: May 10, 2012, 11:40:08 AM »
I've overlooked nothing and am aware of who Christ was and is, and what he taught his Jewish bretheren through scripture (from the Torah) and what he teaches those who care to hear.

Ok so far...

My point was/is Christ didn't/doesn't endorse killing Homosexuals....

How could he teach the Jewish Law, including Leviticus, without endorsing that part of the Law?

I agree that the gospels say nothing directly about homosexuality, but I'm interested to establish where you get your information as to which parts of the Jewish Law Jesus included and which he left out. I'm unaware of any of this being specified in his teachings.

my first thought would be John 8 (apart from the question of its inspiration).  the religious leaders brought a woman caught in adultery in order to trap him.  his response was to scatter the accusers by exposing their hypocrisy, then turning to the woman and declaring forgiveness while also urging her to refrain from the act.
Jesus broke the jewish law on a number of occasions (the sabbath, the eating of shewbread, etc) in order to demonstrate that "I desire mercy, not sacrifice"
when Jesus declared "give to Caesar that which is Caesar and to God what is God's" he was pointing to the same principle that I think Christians today should recognize:  the government of this world is not the government of the Kingdom of Christ.  While in some countries we are wise in taking advantage of our rights to vote, we must not lose sight of the fact that "My Kingdom is not of this world"

Offline Odysseus

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Re: "I'm Not Anti-Gay, I'm Pro-Marriage"
« Reply #244 on: May 10, 2012, 11:47:22 AM »
my first thought would be John 8 (apart from the question of its inspiration).  the religious leaders brought a woman caught in adultery in order to trap him.  his response was to scatter the accusers by exposing their hypocrisy, then turning to the woman and declaring forgiveness while also urging her to refrain from the act.
Jesus broke the jewish law on a number of occasions (the sabbath, the eating of shewbread, etc) in order to demonstrate that "I desire mercy, not sacrifice"
when Jesus declared "give to Caesar that which is Caesar and to God what is God's" he was pointing to the same principle that I think Christians today should recognize:  the government of this world is not the government of the Kingdom of Christ.  While in some countries we are wise in taking advantage of our rights to vote, we must not lose sight of the fact that "My Kingdom is not of this world"

It's a little vague, though, especially when you consider the odd passage or two in Romans, 1 Corinthians and um.... 1 Timothy (I think... can't remember!).  Homosexuality doesn't seem to be a particularly big deal in the New Testament as far as I can make out.  Mind you, if we consider Roman and Greek influence that was more prevalent during this time than that of the OT times, maybe that is not that surprising....