Obsession About F Sharp

[theseoafs]

First of all, no vocal lines in any metal or rock music anywhere look like that, because it's rock and metal. The comparison isn't really fair. You're also working under the assumption that DT's vocal lines are indicative of the maximum level of JLB's ability, which is a dangerous assumption to make, given that a guitarist and keyboardist probably wrote the majority of them.

But this is quite beside the point -- replace "virtuoso" with "great singer" if you want to. I don't necessarily care about the word. What I did object to was your unfair categorization of JLB as a "decent" singer who gets little to no praise for his ability.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

First of all, no vocal lines in any metal or rock music anywhere look like that, because it's rock and metal. The comparison isn't really fair. You're also working under the assumption that DT's vocal lines are indicative of the maximum level of JLB's ability, which is a dangerous assumption to make, given that a guitarist and keyboardist probably wrote the majority of them.

But this is quite beside the point -- replace "virtuoso" with "great singer" if you want to. I don't necessarily care about the word. What I did object to was your unfair categorization of JLB as a "decent" singer who gets little to no praise for his ability.

I have no problem with this. That is quite different from what you initially said.

[theseoafs]

In that case, I apologize for my word choice, which was in retrospect inappropriate.

[BlobVanDam]

The F# is just the the beginning of the climax of the song. On it's own, it's just a note. James has hit higher many times before. It's the song that makes it beautiful. Everything builds up to it. The F# sets off an amazing guitar solo, WFT reprise, the final chorus, and the fade out jam.

But not on a DT studio record he hasn't. Until BMUBMD, it's the highest. So it has always stood alone as THE note.
(of course if we're counting Marquee, then it's a different story. Wow.)

[Shattered Glass]

Tis your point about about a high note "as a listener" stands equally for a fast passage by a guitar.  If a listener doesn't know about the work involved, a technically difficult passage sounds all fluttery and pretty (and, probably should sound like that).  Anyone who has ever played knows it's not, but a listener who has never played shouldn't know better; similarly, even knowing that he was probably born with a naturally high range, the effort required to create that note is phenomenal to me. 

(which is to say, if people in this forum are allowed to say "dat bass"/"dat unison" etc then I'm allowed to say "dat note")

Personally, a singer singing a climactic high note off a run like that pretty much socks me in the stomach (from the final "vincero" in nessun dorma; or the final "night" in "o holy night" - I'm a sucker for it) and I'm glad that singing like that affects me in that way.  My initial point is that that is a virtuosic moment, that matches (and for me surpasses) all the instrumental pyrotechnics that are happening elsewhere in the band, 

In terms of the virtuoso argument, I gather that you think rapid passages equals virtuosity, but rapid vocal passages have actually been out of vogue for about 200 years now.  Your 19th century Wagerian singer trades vocal nimbleness for vocal power (due to the loudness of the orchestra), and I say this because I don't think you really get how huge James' voice is.  James voice is huge.  Seriously.  The appeal with James is that he is your singer with age old vocal technique, using his diaphragm and breath to project (the basis of classical vocal training) combined with a huge range.  For me, I love that I can hear James' body in his vocal lines. 

The inconsistency that you have cited previously would not occur if a DT concert was an hour each night because the voice is a muscle, and muscles get tired (unless you're making pretty sounds into an electronic amplifier system). If you have ever sung, then you would know, once your high notes are gone, they're not coming back, and he manages that each time he sings.  So, what he does is pretty incredible to me.

In conclusion, I really disagree with you saying "James is not a virtuoso" because you are not showing me that you have an idea of what the technical challenges in singing are. 

[McNugg]

I just had to register to post this F# from 2005

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4J99lCqnmQ&t=1h14m45s

He's still got it! (7 years ago)

[SeRoX]

A Long Very Well Written

This is a great post, Shattered Glass. Agree with you.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Tis your point about about a high note "as a listener" stands equally for a fast passage by a guitar.  If a listener doesn't know about the work involved, a technically difficult passage sounds all fluttery and pretty (and, probably should sound like that).  Anyone who has ever played knows it's not, but a listener who has never played shouldn't know better; similarly, even knowing that he was probably born with a naturally high range, the effort required to create that note is phenomenal to me. 

(which is to say, if people in this forum are allowed to say "dat bass"/"dat unison" etc then I'm allowed to say "dat note")

Personally, a singer singing a climactic high note off a run like that pretty much socks me in the stomach (from the final "vincero" in nessun dorma; or the final "night" in "o holy night" - I'm a sucker for it) and I'm glad that singing like that affects me in that way.  My initial point is that that is a virtuosic moment, that matches (and for me surpasses) all the instrumental pyrotechnics that are happening elsewhere in the band, 

In terms of the virtuoso argument, I gather that you think rapid passages equals virtuosity, but rapid vocal passages have actually been out of vogue for about 200 years now.  Your 19th century Wagerian singer trades vocal nimbleness for vocal power (due to the loudness of the orchestra), and I say this because I don't think you really get how huge James' voice is.  James voice is huge.  Seriously.  The appeal with James is that he is your singer with age old vocal technique, using his diaphragm and breath to project (the basis of classical vocal training) combined with a huge range.  For me, I love that I can hear James' body in his vocal lines. 

The inconsistency that you have cited previously would not occur if a DT concert was an hour each night because the voice is a muscle, and muscles get tired (unless you're making pretty sounds into an electronic amplifier system). If you have ever sung, then you would know, once your high notes are gone, they're not coming back, and he manages that each time he sings.  So, what he does is pretty incredible to me.

In conclusion, I really disagree with you saying "James is not a virtuoso" because you are not showing me that you have an idea of what the technical challenges in singing are.

Nah. No matter how you slice, I'm sorry. He's not. I'm far more familiar with the technical challenges of singing than you are, and I listen to far more than you do, apparently. Your bringing Wagner into this doesn't help your desire to attach to JLB a label that simply won't fit. In Wagner, singers are often on stage singing for enormous lengths of time and are singing over an orchestra that's double the size of an Italian one, with no amplification. By the way, Wagner lasts 5 hours...you do realize this, right? Relatively speaking, DT does not require the same amount of singing. You extended my point to include things that I never said. You can say all you want about how you are impressed by the "power" of his voice (not sure what you're talking about) or how he is a great singer. It's besides the point.

I find nothing-- absolutely nothing-- in the catalog of DT songs or live performances to suggest that JLB possesses extreme technical ability...since JLB can't do what's required in your Wagner example either, you actually just created a wider gap between JLB and roles that require great technical skill to pull off.

[SeRoX]

I'm far more familiar with the technical challenges of singing than you are, and I listen to far more than you do, apparently.

Then, what about showing your technical knowledge instead of saying "James is not talented" singer or virtuoso. All I see is James is not talented singer just based your personal opinions, nothing more. Though I respect your opinion I see no technical terms about your thought to support it. I'm gladly open to be enlightened about this matter.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I'm far more familiar with the technical challenges of singing than you are, and I listen to far more than you do, apparently.

Then, what about showing your technical knowledge instead of saying "James is not talented" singer or virtuoso. All I see is James is not talented singer just based your personal opinions, nothing more. Though I respect your opinion I see no technical terms about your thought to support it. I'm gladly open to be enlightened about this matter.

I can't respond on this thread anymore. I'll PM.

[Jaffa]

I don't know if you'll see this, BOOLsheet, because you're apparently leaving the thread.  But if you are still here, I wanted to address a point theseoafs touched on earlier.  In your opinion, are there any singers in the genres of rock and metal who qualify as virtuoso vocalists? 

[Shattered Glass]

Nah. No matter how you slice, I'm sorry. He's not. I'm far more familiar with the technical challenges of singing than you are, and I listen to far more than you do, apparently.

Fair enough if you are and if you do.  Its just that if you discount the fact that James has a huge range, huge projection, and sings a marathon each DT concert then it then you're not convincing me as they are all displays of singing technique.  In terms of James' voice, he has a voice that will fill a room without amplification - that combined with his range is something that I find thrilling. 

My point about Wagnerian singers is that you seem to want a singer who sings fast notes but that kind of vocal display for the last 200 years has been replaced by displays of vocal range and power which is what James has in spades. I do realise that Wagner music dramas are 5 hours long, but I also cannot think of a role in the opera catalogue that calls for a singer to be on stage singing as much as James does in a Dream Theater concert (even in Wagner operas - the average lead role will be about an hour - 1 hour and a half of singing, which is also a marathon).  A vocal recital is comparable (but also, the case of the "evening with's", an hour to two hours shorter). But in any case, there's no opera role, or classical performance that will call for the the singer to be repeating every 2nd night with periodic weeks off over the course of a year. 

I find nothing-- absolutely nothing-- in the catalog of DT songs or live performances to suggest that JLB possesses extreme technical ability...

That is what this thread is about - the fact that he can still hit a note when he's 49 after years of road work that most men can't dream of.  And again, you have noted that its the same to you a strumming a string, and again I will note, but that is technique, and I will continue to wonder that if you cannot appreciate it if you know as much about technique as you say.

[El JoNNo]

I suppose it matters what you would consider a good singer. To go back to the guitar analogy. Say you have to guitarist; 1 is a an amazing shredder and the other is a superb finger picker. Both have amazing technique but in different areas.

With James, he may not be jumping all around from note to note at rapid speeds like an opera singer might do. What he does do is sing in 2+ hour long shows day after day and  night after night rarely seeing a red light. He sings using his full range often without changing his timbre. He uses grit, soft and screams. All this while running around of stage and at many points probably unable to hear himself.

That takes amazing technique. You will not see any opera singer do all that while running around on a stage.

 

[Freko]

The F# is just the the beginning of the climax of the song. On it's own, it's just a note. James has hit higher many times before. It's the song that makes it beautiful. Everything builds up to it. The F# sets off an amazing guitar solo, WFT reprise, the final chorus, and the fade out jam.

But not on a DT studio record he hasn't. Until BMUBMD, it's the highest. So it has always stood alone as THE note.
(of course if we're counting Marquee, then it's a different story. Wow.)

Sorry.. but there is a G in Innocence Faded, "Not intending to end"
Edit: maybe that´s a F... 
Edit 2: had to get out of bed and check it.. it´s F.. sorry 

[Ruba]

The F# is just the the beginning of the climax of the song. On it's own, it's just a note. James has hit higher many times before. It's the song that makes it beautiful. Everything builds up to it. The F# sets off an amazing guitar solo, WFT reprise, the final chorus, and the fade out jam.

But not on a DT studio record he hasn't. Until BMUBMD, it's the highest. So it has always stood alone as THE note.
(of course if we're counting Marquee, then it's a different story. Wow.)

Sorry.. but there is a G in Innocence Faded, "Not intending to end"
Edit: maybe that´s a F... 
Edit 2: had to get out of bed and check it.. it´s F.. sorry 

It's F. DT has E's there and there, like Voices (Sex is death, death is sex), Under a Glass Moon (Praying for time to disappear) and Take the Time (If there's pensive fear, a wasted year A man must learn to cope If his obsession's real, Suppression that he feels must turn to hope).

[Kotowboy]

I suppose it matters what you would consider a good singer. To go back to the guitar analogy. Say you have to guitarist; 1 is a an amazing shredder and the other is a superb finger picker. Both have amazing technique but in different areas.

With James, he may not be jumping all around from note to note at rapid speeds like an opera singer might do. What he does do is sing in 2+ hour long shows day after day and  night after night rarely seeing a red light. He sings using his full range often without changing his timbre. He uses grit, soft and screams. All this while running around of stage and at many points probably unable to hear himself.

That takes amazing technique. You will not see any opera singer do all that while running around on a stage.

And in my opinion - all Opera singers have that horrendous false vibrato that sounds like they're freezing cold and being strangled whilst sitting on a washing machine on the spin cycle.

[Jaq]

I'm a bit of a crotchety bastard at times-my blazing fanboy days are LONG behind me-and I frequently think that a lot of the hubbub over this note is prog nerds who are, metaphorically, listening to this song (which is right fucking amazing, let me tell you) and elbowing a hypothetical audience in the ribs right at the note and saying "you hear that? That's an F#!" And then they nod to themselves, satisfied with their knowledge of music, and having no idea that most people, myself included, think there "that's a fucking cool part." It's entirely possible to over think something, and I think a lot of the F# crowd has done just that at times. It's a great part of a great song. The F# will not add five years to your life, or five feet to your jump shot. It's merely part of a performance. One I sure as fuck couldn't do, but listing singers that can hit that same note consistently would likely take all day.

[robwebster]

I'm a bit of a crotchety bastard at times-my blazing fanboy days are LONG behind me-and I frequently think that a lot of the hubbub over this note is prog nerds who are, metaphorically, listening to this song (which is right fucking amazing, let me tell you) and elbowing a hypothetical audience in the ribs right at the note and saying "you hear that? That's an F#!" And then they nod to themselves, satisfied with their knowledge of music, and having no idea that most people, myself included, think there "that's a fucking cool part." It's entirely possible to over think something, and I think a lot of the F# crowd has done just that at times. It's a great part of a great song. The F# will not add five years to your life, or five feet to your jump shot. It's merely part of a performance. One I sure as fuck couldn't do, but listing singers that can hit that same note consistently would likely take all day.

I think this is a great post, and pretty much exactly where I stand. Minus the crotchetty bastard stuff.

It's just another nifty part of a very nifty song. Do I like it? Yep, great moment. Is it especially special? Not at all.

[Jaq]

To be fair, most people think I've been a crotchety old bastard since I was eighteen...

[Implode]

I'm a bit of a crotchety bastard at times-my blazing fanboy days are LONG behind me-and I frequently think that a lot of the hubbub over this note is prog nerds who are, metaphorically, listening to this song (which is right fucking amazing, let me tell you) and elbowing a hypothetical audience in the ribs right at the note and saying "you hear that? That's an F#!" And then they nod to themselves, satisfied with their knowledge of music, and having no idea that most people, myself included, think there "that's a fucking cool part." It's entirely possible to over think something, and I think a lot of the F# crowd has done just that at times. It's a great part of a great song. The F# will not add five years to your life, or five feet to your jump shot. It's merely part of a performance. One I sure as fuck couldn't do, but listing singers that can hit that same note consistently would likely take all day.

Agreed. The note itself isn't insanely impressive, but it's amazing in the context of the song.

[manticore999]

I don't care much for it, and live it's never been really good. There's an ancient recording of I&W times where he nails the note with ease and grace, but it's the only time I've ever heard him do it.
Song-wise, I find the guitar solo right after way more glorious.

rumborak

This

[ddtonfire]

The obsession is just superficial. Nobody think's it's the whole song.

[Ben_Jamin]

It's the only way the song can reach it's satisfying climax, it's disappointing when he couldn't hit it like on Live Scenes. The whole song just builds and descends well which is what people enjoy of the song i'm sure.

[1neeto]

It just seems an odd discussion on a Dream Theater forum, seeing as many fans of DT are into their music, in part, because of how difficult it is to perform.  It seems like a lot people give the instrumentalists in the band all sorts of praise for their technical ability, but, for some reason, don't extend that to JLB. 

This is what I hate. I mean, many call them as a virtuoso but James not. IMO, a vocalist must have more praise. Unlike other instruments voice is kinda live thing. It's so hard to keep it the way it is, considering many factors. So, you can play guitar like the other day but you may not sound like the other day and we blame James for this like he does it on purpose.

JLB is a great recording artist but he can't sing on pitch during live performances to save his life. This is why.

[El JoNNo]

It just seems an odd discussion on a Dream Theater forum, seeing as many fans of DT are into their music, in part, because of how difficult it is to perform.  It seems like a lot people give the instrumentalists in the band all sorts of praise for their technical ability, but, for some reason, don't extend that to JLB. 

This is what I hate. I mean, many call them as a virtuoso but James not. IMO, a vocalist must have more praise. Unlike other instruments voice is kinda live thing. It's so hard to keep it the way it is, considering many factors. So, you can play guitar like the other day but you may not sound like the other day and we blame James for this like he does it on purpose.

JLB is a great recording artist but he can't sing on pitch during live performances to save his life. This is why.

I find this interesting; considering he was on pitch nearly the entire night in Toronto. Even completely own UAGM at the end of the night.

[SeRoX]

It just seems an odd discussion on a Dream Theater forum, seeing as many fans of DT are into their music, in part, because of how difficult it is to perform.  It seems like a lot people give the instrumentalists in the band all sorts of praise for their technical ability, but, for some reason, don't extend that to JLB. 

This is what I hate. I mean, many call them as a virtuoso but James not. IMO, a vocalist must have more praise. Unlike other instruments voice is kinda live thing. It's so hard to keep it the way it is, considering many factors. So, you can play guitar like the other day but you may not sound like the other day and we blame James for this like he does it on purpose.

JLB is a great recording artist but he can't sing on pitch during live performances to save his life. This is why.

According to the shows I attended myself or saw them on the internet, many of them can prove you wrong.

James has his off nights, that's for sure but who does not?

[1neeto]

You tell me if he sang this good. And this is one of the few times he was recorded sounding halfway decent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R1V1brkWNQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Other honorable mention is how he sang most of the Budokan DVD flat. Even in recording there is autotune involved. I mean am I the only one in this site who thinks that JLB is not that good of a singer? Because outside of this site (or this thread at least) most agree with me.

[theseoafs]

Because outside of this site (or this thread at least) most agree with me.

Incorrect.

I'd never heard the version of Another Day that you posted, but James sounds absolutely phenomenal here. He sounds awful on LaB but everybody already knew that.

EDIT: You inspired me to re-listen to more songs from LSFNY. James is awesome on Beyond this Life, for instance. Wow, man. I don't understand how anybody can't give JLB the credit he deserves after listening to tracks like these.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

You tell me if he sang this good. And this is one of the few times he was recorded sounding halfway decent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R1V1brkWNQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Other honorable mention is how he sang most of the Budokan DVD flat. Even in recording there is autotune involved. I mean am I the only one in this site who thinks that JLB is not that good of a singer? Because outside of this site (or this thread at least) most agree with me.

You are certainly not alone (on this thread or forum) in believing that.

[perfey]

I think it's the highlight, and the guitarsolo after it just gets even more epic by it, the fit together so well. But the song overall is so great, in my top 10 I believe,  so the F# doesnt make or break the song for me.

[SeRoX]

You tell me if he sang this good. And this is one of the few times he was recorded sounding halfway decent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R1V1brkWNQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Other honorable mention is how he sang most of the Budokan DVD flat. Even in recording there is autotune involved. I mean am I the only one in this site who thinks that JLB is not that good of a singer? Because outside of this site (or this thread at least) most agree with me.

You are certainly not alone (on this thread or forum) in believing that.

I thought you are done with this thread. lol

[John94]

It is like the cherry on the icing on the cake. I mean, I enjoy the cake without the cherry, but the cherry gives it that extra kick.

Love it. Would love to see an on form James hit it, in person, a live show.

[rumborak]

You tell me if he sang this good. And this is one of the few times he was recorded sounding halfway decent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R1V1brkWNQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Other honorable mention is how he sang most of the Budokan DVD flat. Even in recording there is autotune involved. I mean am I the only one in this site who thinks that JLB is not that good of a singer? Because outside of this site (or this thread at least) most agree with me.

You are certainly not alone (on this thread or forum) in believing that.

I always respected JLB as an extremely capable singer. I just don't care all that much for that type of singing. That's sort of where I stand.

rumborak

[SeRoX]

You tell me if he sang this good. And this is one of the few times he was recorded sounding halfway decent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R1V1brkWNQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Other honorable mention is how he sang most of the Budokan DVD flat. Even in recording there is autotune involved. I mean am I the only one in this site who thinks that JLB is not that good of a singer? Because outside of this site (or this thread at least) most agree with me.

You say he is not capable singer and always come up with his off-night performances which I think "Another Day" from LSFAM is quite good and L@B is overall pretty well-performed to me. Agreed, it differs one to one but what you are doing is just unfair.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

You tell me if he sang this good. And this is one of the few times he was recorded sounding halfway decent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R1V1brkWNQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Other honorable mention is how he sang most of the Budokan DVD flat. Even in recording there is autotune involved. I mean am I the only one in this site who thinks that JLB is not that good of a singer? Because outside of this site (or this thread at least) most agree with me.

You are certainly not alone (on this thread or forum) in believing that.

I thought you are done with this thread. lol

I am