My Spanish Professor just really screwed up...

[antigoon]

lol, just make sure she doesn't see this thread.

Edit: wait, you study for ten hours every day?

[ZirconBlue]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I'm no moral paragon, but, I have never cheated on a test in my life.  And even if I did, I'd be too ashamed of myself to tell others about it, let alone try to rationalize my behavior. 

[Chino]

lol, just make sure she doesn't see this thread.

Edit: wait, you study for ten hours every day?

Well not study as is reading books in notes.. but 10 hours doing work and going to class. I have at most 3 hours of class in a day and usually spend at least 7 hours in the library or computer lab. I don't cheat in spanish because I'm lazy and don't want to do work... I do plenty of work. I just can't wrap my head around dedicating hours and hours to a pointless class when I could be spending that time actually learning things that are important and needed for my future.

[Ravenheart]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I echo these sentiments.

[KevShmev]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I'm no moral paragon, but, I have never cheated on a test in my life.  And even if I did, I'd be too ashamed of myself to tell others about it, let alone try to rationalize my behavior.

But that is kind of my point: I think many would not tell the teacher, take the final knowing what will be on it and not tell a soul what happened, while when asked by someone what they should do in a similar scenario, tell them that they should do "the right thing" and fess up.  A lot of people are sneaky/shady/hypocritical like that.

[lonestar]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I would in a heartbeat, but I am a very guilt and shame driven person, such actions would eat me alive.

[theseoafs]

...except that assumes he tells her and then keep a copy to study even if she asks for him to delete it.  That's tricking the person into thinking you're honest, not being honest yourself.

We're working off the assumption that the OP doesn't care about honesty and is working in his own self-interest, as his replies would indicate.

I appreciate the advice guys, but I'm not telling her lol. I could tell by the file extension that it was the final. I forwarded me a copy of the email to another address without opening it, so as far as she can tell I never looked at it...if it comes to that. I am an MIS major. The jobs I am looking to get require impressive GPA's. I have a 3.51 overall right now, and a bad grade on this Spanish final could bring that as low as a 3.25ish. I'm taking the good grade and running. Sure I'll feel like a scumbag (for a minute or two) but if I land a $60k a year job out of college because of it... it's not gonna bother me in the least. If the school had professors that weren't technology retarded, this would never have happened. I'm not cheating on an exam that I should legitimately know for my career, it's a class that will have no bearing on my future endevors. I shouldn't have to be taking a spanish class anyway, I'm only in it because of an education system that's 50 years out of date. I also don't feel bad because at least half of the class (including me) is going to have their phones out with conjugation apps and google translate open the entire time.

Consider telling her, if only because your "honesty" would probably give you a really nice letter of rec.

[kirksnosehair]

And people do this  when I tell them that as a hiring manager (in the MIS business) "education" credentials are meaningless to me 

I should bookmark this thread.

[KevShmev]

We're working off the assumption that the OP doesn't care about honesty and is working in his own self-interest, as his replies would indicate.

Serious question: who doesn't work in his/her own self-interest?  Note that saying someone works in their own interest doesn't mean they don't work in the interest of others as well (like a family member, spouse, etc.), just that their own self-interest is a priority (but not necessarily the only priority).

[theseoafs]

Everybody works in their own self-interest. Perhaps I would've more accurately worded it as "working only in his own self-interest"; what I meant to express was that the "ethics" of this particular situation were not a concern to him.

[Chino]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I'm no moral paragon, but, I have never cheated on a test in my life.  And even if I did, I'd be too ashamed of myself to tell others about it, let alone try to rationalize my behavior.

I understand this attitude completely.... but landing a decent job is the most important thing in my life right now. Especially in a field that is full of outsourcing and not prepared for properly in the current US college system. The only thing that matters to me is getting that job and being able to do it. If I am in a class that is not applicable to my future, and I can turn a B into an A by putting a piece of paper in my pen... of course I am going to do it. This world is dog eat dog, and I will do just about anything in my power to get to where I need to. If cheating on Spanish exams (which really does NO harm to anyone) means being able to support a family and enjoy life, I'm doing it. In the grand scheme of life, these little acts, at least in my mind, are well worth it. I'm securing my future and well being. I'll be damned if I were to not be able to find work because I was not able to get good grades in Spanish or Philosophy, and even more pissed if I got into a job and realized I didn't know enough because I had to dedicate too much time to pointless classes. I make this my advantage.

I know this just sounds like a justification excuse to many, but it is how I justify my actions. Am I in the right by cheating on an exam? Absolutely not. Am I doing it for a good cause? Yes I am. I don't cheat in everything. I only cheat in the classes that I don't believe I should be taking. It's bad enough that the school is already robbing me of thousands of dollars to take them, I'm not letting them rob me of my time. I genuinely put in 100% honest effort into classes that are necessary for me. Cheating in Spanish will not have any bearing on my future. If I were to cheat in say Visual Basic, I am getting a good grade, but I'm not doing myself any favors. If anything, I've jepordized my future.

[Elite]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I would in a heartbeat, but I am a very guilt and shame driven person, such actions would eat me alive.

This, definitely, applies to me as well.

[Chino]

And people do this  when I tell them that as a hiring manager (in the MIS business) "education" credentials are meaningless to me 

I should bookmark this thread.

My academic advisor is a also a hiring manager outside of school. He said when he get's a stack of applications, the only ones that get to second stack are the ones that have great GPA's and Internships. He said that the GPA is the first thing he sees (this pisses me off). I could have all As in computer and business classes, but if I were to get low Bs in all my science language classes, my GPA is shit. He said he doesn't even look into individual grades, just your overall. Hearing stuff like that makes me (and I know everyone feels differently) not care that I have have to cheat. If a 3.3 doesn't get my application looked at and a 3.6 does... I am doind whatever is necessary to get to that 3.6. I don't care if I have to bribe the teacher... I'm getting that GPA. I'm not going to graduate and not be able to find work because I wanted to take an honest B over a slightly unearned A.

[Chino]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I'm no moral paragon, but, I have never cheated on a test in my life.  And even if I did, I'd be too ashamed of myself to tell others about it, let alone try to rationalize my behavior.

If you got clocked speeding by cop and were about to be let go without even getting a warning... would you request the ticket anyway because you were ashamed that you got an advantage that not everybody gets?

[yorost]

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

Whatever, I would and have done these kinds of things.  If you take developing your own moral code seriously you find so called hard decisions easy to make.  If you can't follow your own thoughts on conduct why value them?  Yes, lots of people grandstand, but many aren't.

I wonder how many people saying that he should fess up and tell her would actually do it themselves.  Forgive my pessimism, but I have seen a lot of grandstanding by people over the years when it comes to morals and integrity, and more often than not, those people are full of shit; I can think of several ex-co-workers off the top of my head.

I'm no moral paragon, but, I have never cheated on a test in my life.  And even if I did, I'd be too ashamed of myself to tell others about it, let alone try to rationalize my behavior.

If you got clocked speeding by cop and were about to be let go without even getting a warning... would you request the ticket anyway because you were ashamed that you got an advantage that not everybody gets?

First, laws vs tests can generate different opinions because they're different beasts.  Second, one is the authority giving a break the other is an ignorant authority.

[kirksnosehair]

And people do this  when I tell them that as a hiring manager (in the MIS business) "education" credentials are meaningless to me 

I should bookmark this thread.

My academic advisor is a also a hiring manager outside of school. He said when he get's a stack of applications, the only ones that get to second stack are the ones that have great GPA's and Internships. He said that the GPA is the first thing he sees (this pisses me off). I could have all As in computer and business classes, but if I were to get low Bs in all my science language classes, my GPA is shit. He said he doesn't even look into individual grades, just your overall. Hearing stuff like that makes me (and I know everyone feels differently) not care that I have have to cheat. If a 3.3 doesn't get my application looked at and a 3.6 does... I am doind whatever is necessary to get to that 3.6. I don't care if I have to bribe the teacher... I'm getting that GPA. I'm not going to graduate and not be able to find work because I wanted to take an honest B over a slightly unearned A.

I think you missed my point.  For the very reasons you have rationalized your cheating in this thread (the perception that it will somehow help you get ahead in life) I pay ZERO attention to anything related to formal education when I am evaluating potential staff members.  I couldn't possibly care less what their "GPA" is because, as you have so eloquently pointed out right here in this thread, today's graduating college student very likely cheated their way through school, so their GPA (like your future GPA) isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  It's bullshit window dressing.  The product of notes in pens, and code on the palms of hands, and Google Translate and calculators on the screens of smartphones hidden under desks. 

What you can't cheat on, though is experience.   (and honor and integrity, but that's a different angle to this) And that's why, now that I am in a position where I hire people, I only hire people with proven and verifiable track records (experience) in the business.  Here, you are illustrating the perfect example of why I toss resumes from college graduates directly in the trash can, regardless of their alleged GPA.  No offense to you personally, Chino, you do what you think you've got to do. Good luck with that.

[snapple]

Absolutely, tell her. As we say in German, "lies have short legs".

rumborak

bullshit. that's english

[lonestar]

Great post Kirk. Fortunately in my business, we try out cooks before hiring, get to find out real quick if a guy sucks or not.

[snapple]

The only issue I have with what Kirk said is the "throwing away apps from college grads". It's fucking impossible to find jobs (at least where I live). Everyone wants 3yrs+ experience and want to pay shit money. Entry level jobs are few and far between. You ought to at least interview those people. You could be missing out on some special talent.

[Nick]

The only issue I have with what Kirk said is the "throwing away apps from college grads". It's fucking impossible to find jobs (at least where I live). Everyone wants 3yrs+ experience and want to pay shit money. Entry level jobs are few and far between. You ought to at least interview those people. You could be missing out on some special talent.

Yup. Not saying you should even look at their grades, but find a few that looks like winners and see what they can do and how they act at least.

[Chino]

And people do this  when I tell them that as a hiring manager (in the MIS business) "education" credentials are meaningless to me 

I should bookmark this thread.

My academic advisor is a also a hiring manager outside of school. He said when he get's a stack of applications, the only ones that get to second stack are the ones that have great GPA's and Internships. He said that the GPA is the first thing he sees (this pisses me off). I could have all As in computer and business classes, but if I were to get low Bs in all my science language classes, my GPA is shit. He said he doesn't even look into individual grades, just your overall. Hearing stuff like that makes me (and I know everyone feels differently) not care that I have have to cheat. If a 3.3 doesn't get my application looked at and a 3.6 does... I am doind whatever is necessary to get to that 3.6. I don't care if I have to bribe the teacher... I'm getting that GPA. I'm not going to graduate and not be able to find work because I wanted to take an honest B over a slightly unearned A.

I think you missed my point.  For the very reasons you have rationalized your cheating in this thread (the perception that it will somehow help you get ahead in life) I pay ZERO attention to anything related to formal education when I am evaluating potential staff members.  I couldn't possibly care less what their "GPA" is because, as you have so eloquently pointed out right here in this thread, today's graduating college student very likely cheated their way through school, so their GPA (like your future GPA) isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  It's bullshit window dressing.  The product of notes in pens, and code on the palms of hands, and Google Translate and calculators on the screens of smartphones hidden under desks. 

What you can't cheat on, though is experience.   (and honor and integrity, but that's a different angle to this) And that's why, now that I am in a position where I hire people, I only hire people with proven and verifiable track records (experience) in the business.  Here, you are illustrating the perfect example of why I toss resumes from college graduates directly in the trash can, regardless of their alleged GPA.  No offense to you personally, Chino, you do what you think you've got to do. Good luck with that.

I understood what you meant. I was just simply pointing out that unfortunately not every person who hires thinks like you do. That is why I will only cheat in classes that I don't really need to know anything about. Any class that has to do with my future profession gets an insane amount of time and dedication, and I make sure I genuinely earn the A that I get. Experience and actual work ability is my number one goal and my GPA is second. The GPA is only there for the people who still believe everyone who graduates college does so honestly.

[ZirconBlue]

The only issue I have with what Kirk said is the "throwing away apps from college grads". It's fucking impossible to find jobs (at least where I live). Everyone wants 3yrs+ experience and want to pay shit money. Entry level jobs are few and far between. You ought to at least interview those people. You could be missing out on some special talent.

There's plenty of talented people with experience out of a job right now.  Kirk doesn't need to take the risk.

[snapple]

Well man, you've got to live with that. I just hope it bites you in the ass. I like you, but you should take the high road. I think there is no problem checking out the questions and then letting her know what happened. But not telling her is pretty bad. Not telling the whole truth is just as bad as lying.

[Hyperplex]

When we've hired designers, we've given them test projects to take home. That is, of course, after the interview process, so we would have already determined the worthiness of the applicant. One would be amazed at how many supposedly good portfolios are padded by college projects that were half-aided by the professors or seemingly awesome designs that are really just lifted backgrounds with a little typesetting added. We've had impressive prospects take home the trial work and submit designs that not only aren't worth the pixels displaying them, but commit so many cardinal design sins that they are thrown in the Fuck It Bucket almost instantly.

[ZirconBlue]

Oh, and by the way, those "bullshit" classes that aren't directly tied to your major are required for a reason. 

[kirksnosehair]

The only issue I have with what Kirk said is the "throwing away apps from college grads". It's fucking impossible to find jobs (at least where I live). Everyone wants 3yrs+ experience and want to pay shit money. Entry level jobs are few and far between. You ought to at least interview those people. You could be missing out on some special talent.

This world is dog eat dog

Funny how that cuts in both directions, ain't it?

[snapple]

Meh, I just think you shouldn't brush people off that quickly. I don't expect you to be fair, but that's pretty asinine.

edit: i dont mean interview all of them. obviously that takes too much time. but you should check out the resumes and challenge yourself to find one or two who stand out, for some reason, to you. some of us young guns would lick peanut butter off of a ball sack for a job. they might work hard.

[kirksnosehair]

The only issue I have with what Kirk said is the "throwing away apps from college grads". It's fucking impossible to find jobs (at least where I live). Everyone wants 3yrs+ experience and want to pay shit money. Entry level jobs are few and far between. You ought to at least interview those people. You could be missing out on some special talent.

There's plenty of talented people with experience out of a job right now.  Kirk doesn't need to take the risk.

I put an ad on Craigslist last week for a position I am hiring for now.  I had to take it down after two days because I had 1200 applicants, most of them ridiculously far beyond qualified for the position and every single one of them most likely willing to make half of what they were making at their last job just so they can get hired.

Bottom line:  I have absolutely no need or desire to take a risk on some kid who gaffed his way through school and has no experience in the real world.

Hey, I do my part to help local college kids in this area - we have an internship program here and every year I have at least two interns working for me.  And we even pay them, unlike a lot of companies around here.

[kirksnosehair]

Meh, I just think you shouldn't brush people off that quickly. I don't expect you to be fair, but that's pretty asinine.

That's life, dude. 

[snapple]

Meh, I just think you shouldn't brush people off that quickly. I don't expect you to be fair, but that's pretty asinine.

That's life, dude.

I edited the post. Also, I just saw about your internship. That's actually pretty cool.

[antigoon]

Why would he want to hire someone straight out of college when, like he said, he already has tons of qualified applicants with working experience knocking at the door? It's not his fault.

[snapple]

Why would he want to hire someone straight out of college when, like he said, he already has tons of qualified applicants with working experience knocking at the door? It's not his fault.

Because I'm one of those college kids? Even though it's just a two year (which I know is bullshit haha), it's still stupid that I can't find work. The shit in college I "lernd" was nothing new for me in the world of computer networking. I have "experience" in that I help out the local school district in the summer with their computer systems. But I can't even find $8.00/hr to help physically repair computers. That's what I find stupid.

[kirksnosehair]

The one thing that Chino wrote in here that is a good point is this is a dog eat dog world.  I am not here at this company for going on 13 years because I was charitable and took chances I didn't need to take.  That's just how things work in the business world.  I didn't make the rules, but I have to play by them.

Out of my 7 staff (about to be 8) two of them were interns for me who I ended up hiring when they graduated.  But the only reason I hired them was because I got to see them in action first.  Both of them offered me copies of their transcripts from school and I passed on them in both cases, because, frankly, I don't give a shit what your grades were, what I care about is can you program that router or help Nancy in accounting get connected to the printer.  Everything else is bullshit.

snapple, I urge you to find an internship somewhere.  Experience is king, especially now with millions of people out of work. 

[snapple]

snapple, I urge you to find an internship somewhere.  Experience is king, especially now with millions of people out of work.

Doing my best, it's impossible to find one in northern lower michigan. I can send you a message privately about what's going on. and, yeah I understand what you're saying. Just kind of irks me because I am fucked. I know I can do the work. If I don't know something, I'm very open and willing to learn it etc.


back OT:

Chino, fess up.

[Hyperplex]

Here's the thing: companies are not hiring people to improve the applicants' lives; they are hiring to improve the company itself. Most, if not all, hiring managers and HR people couldn't give two shitting pigs in a fuckfarm how difficult the job search is for anyone else out there, they are simply intent on improving and growing the company by filling the open position with a qualified person.

If I'm presented with two applicants, one out of work but has 7 years professional design experience, a solid portfolio and a resumé that shows his experienced qualifications and the other a recent college grad with little to no professional experience outside of coursework but an impressive portfolio and they are both willing to accept the job under the same salary, you can bet the entirety of your ass and balls that I'm going to hire the one with experience. I'm much more confident giving the open position in my company to someone who has already proven he can work and perform in the industry and won't force us to hold his or her hand through the acclimation process.

It may suck to be a college grad, but you'll have a very hard time getting any sympathy from a company with funds to spend, a position to fill and a bottom line to meet.