Genital Mutilation in Britain

[Odysseus]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/medics-offered-genital-mutilation-report-says-120425612.html

Medics Offered Genital Mutilation, Report Says

As many as 100,000 women in Britain may have been mutilated in the name of culture and religion, a report claims.
Female circumcision is performed on young girls and women around the world, especially in African countries.
Refugees who have come to the UK are perpetuating the practice, even though it is illegal.

The Sunday Times has uncovered what it claims is evidence of three medical practitioners offering advice on how it could be done, or in one case charging £750 to carry out the procedure.
The practice involves cutting the clitoris and stitching the wound and the vagina.
Omar Sheikh Mohamed Addow is a dentist in Birmingham, but was filmed describing how the clitoris could be pierced with a needle and then clamped.
"Once they won't feel anything, then you cut with scissors. It will bleed. Then you take the stitches. You close."
When contacted by Sky News he denied he said ever been involved in the act.
"I have not referred anyone for this treatment. I am a dentist. I am aware of female genital mutilation and have campaigned against it."

Yet he was he recorded by the Sunday Times apparently agreeing to mutilate two young girls, aged 10 and 13, in secret:

Omar Sheikh Mohamed Addow: I will do it for you.
Sunday Times reporter: Thank you.
Addow: Nobody should know. Between you me and Allah only.

The Sunday Times say they were put in touch with the Birmingham dentist by Dr Ali Mao Aweys, who has practices in Birmingham and London and was recorded suggesting it was safer to have the surgery outside the UK.
"Yes it must have (sic) confidential. But I think it's better if you go to Africa, and then do, and then stay for 14 days, and then I give you some medication you can take and then give them."
When Sky News visited his practice in north London his receptionist told us he was not prepared to comment and asked us to leave.
But he may have to speak to the General Medical Council .
The council's chief executive, Niall Dixon, said he was concerned and has begun an investigation.
Mohammad Sahib describes himself as an alternative medicine practitioner and the newspaper said he wanted £750 to perform surgery on the genitalia.

The newspaper secretly recorded this exchange:

Sunday Times (ST): You'll cut the clitoris?
Mohammad Sahib (MS): Yeah
ST: You'll cut with blade?
MB: Yeah
ST: You'll do it here?
MB: Yeah.
ST: What about stitching? Sew it?
MB: Yes I can do both.

There is no medical justification for any of these procedures.
And despite them being illegal, no one in Britain has ever been prosecuted for being involved.
Equality Now campaigner Efua Dorkenoo told Sky News: "Members of the community,family members know about it... there's a lot of pressure.
"And if you expose it you could be ostracised and you could be persecuted in the community.
"So people are frightened of coming forward."
Somali-born supermodel Waris Dirie , who was mutilated as a child, is an vociferous opponent of the practice.
Calling for a crackdown on it, she said: "If a white girl is abused, the police come break down the door. If a black girl is mutilated, nobody takes care of her.
"This is what I call racism."

Jeez, you don't think of these things happening in Britain in 2012, yet just below the surface.... there it is. Another example fo people just tiptoeing away when something is done in the name of religion.

[senecadawg2]

Sounds very stimulating

[jsem]

Genital mutilation is just wrong.

[PraXis]

Wow, what the hell is going on in the UK!? I bet they're loving those immigration laws (or lack of)!

[Phoenix87x]

I remember being quite appalled the first time Female Circumcision was brought my attention back in High School Psychology. I remember thinking that something so awful couldn't possibly happen.

    How sadly, naive I was

   

[Super Dude]

I remember being quite appalled the first time Female Circumcision was brought my attention back in High School Psychology. I remember thinking that something so awful couldn't possibly happen.

    How sadly, naive I was

Since I'm interested in more serious thoughts than "How dare they, those heathens!" I'd love it if you could elaborate.

[Odysseus]

Wow, what the hell is going on in the UK!? I bet they're loving those immigration laws (or lack of)!

And not just UK either.  Apparently there's a growing problem in the US.

This is a pretty long artcle so I won't post the lot, just a couple of bits.  The link is here if anyone is interested:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1995/10/female-circumcision-comes-to-america/6051/

Female Circumcision Comes to America

Performed by new immigrants, veiled in deference to a cultural tradition of the developing world, female circumcision is becoming an American problem.............

Americans who are aware of the practice, which has been performed on some 100 million to 130 million women and girls worldwide, assume that it is a fact of life only for girls who live in faraway places—a form of barbarism that doesn't touch American homes, schools, or doctor's offices. This is simply not true. As more and more African immigrants move to this country, bringing with them their food, practices, and traditions, perhaps hundreds more daughters of African parents are circumcised in the United States every year.
Many of the immigrant mothers who are making these decisions about their daughters know little or nothing about their own anatomy. They are told that if the clitoris is left alone, it will grow and drag on the ground; that if their daughters are left uncircumcised, they will be wild, and will crave men; that no man from their home country will marry them uncircumcised (although many African men say that they prefer uncircumcised women for sex and marriage); that circumcision aids in menstruation and childbirth (although the opposite is true in both cases); and that it is a religious—usually Islamic—requirement (although none of the major Islamic texts calls directly for FGM). And so these women and their husbands come to the United States filled with misinformation, and remain blindly dedicated to continuing this torturous tradition..........

Abuse of the uninformed, pure and simple.  One could make a similar argument for circumcisions that aren't a medical necessity.  Why not wait until the child reaches 16, 18 or whatever age they are deemed to be adults and then let them make that decision for themselves?  That sounds reasonable.  I'd be interested to know by how much the proportion of circumcised males would change....

[Scheavo]

If the problem is recent immigrants, it's not some social problem. It's the problem of the country wherever they came from.

[Super Dude]

I don't mind being circumcised.

[soundgarden]

If the problem is recent immigrants, it's not some social problem. It's the problem of the country wherever they came from.

This.  As an immigrant to the US myself, I find it unnecessary how over the top some discussions can be concerning society.

[jsem]

I don't mind being circumcised.

Does it really have to be pointed out that male and female circumcision aren't the same, don't have the same implications?

[Super Dude]

By this comment:

If the problem is recent immigrants, it's not some social problem. It's the problem of the country wherever they came from.

I wasn't sure if we were talking about men and women anymore. And even then, barring my own judgment of female genital cutting, I don't simply condemn without learning more. There are some areas of the Islamic world where the procedure is considerably less cringeworthy and degrading.

[Scheavo]

Well, my statement was in context of this thread.

Male circumcision is a different issue, and not really comparable to cutting off the clitoris for a female. Maybe if the head was literally chopped off?

[Super Dude]

I dunno, I read way back in my freshman year about this variation that's practiced in Indonesia that doesn't sound *too* bad. I mean sure I'm not thrilled about the idea of female circumcision myself, but if you gotta let some custom persist in other countries, the Indonesian version sounds like the way to go.

[jammindude]

I dunno, I read way back in my freshman year about this variation that's practiced in Indonesia that doesn't sound *too* bad. I mean sure I'm not thrilled about the idea of female circumcision myself, but if you gotta let some custom persist in other countries, the Indonesian version sounds like the way to go.

Sorry dude...I cannot agree.   Not that Wikipedia is the be-all, end all....but even if it's the 80% accurate that it usually is...this is just wrong.

The lowest level of female circumcision involves the removal of the clitoris....rendering it virtually impossible for the woman to ever achieve orgasm...or by extension, enjoy sex at all.   And it's all in the name of the idea that they will somehow become sex maniacs if this isn't done.

There is NO version of this that's acceptable....and anyone who performs it (IMHO) should be castrated.

[Super Dude]

I dunno, I read way back in my freshman year about this variation that's practiced in Indonesia that doesn't sound *too* bad. I mean sure I'm not thrilled about the idea of female circumcision myself, but if you gotta let some custom persist in other countries, the Indonesian version sounds like the way to go.

Sorry dude...I cannot agree.   Not that Wikipedia is the be-all, end all....but even if it's the 80% accurate that it usually is...this is just wrong.

The lowest level of female circumcision involves the removal of the clitoris....rendering it virtually impossible for the woman to ever achieve orgasm...or by extension, enjoy sex at all.   And it's all in the name of the idea that they will somehow become sex maniacs if this isn't done.

There is NO version of this that's acceptable....and anyone who performs it (IMHO) should be castrated.

You're going to trust Wikipedia over something I read in a college course on Anthropology?

[jammindude]

I dunno, I read way back in my freshman year about this variation that's practiced in Indonesia that doesn't sound *too* bad. I mean sure I'm not thrilled about the idea of female circumcision myself, but if you gotta let some custom persist in other countries, the Indonesian version sounds like the way to go.

Sorry dude...I cannot agree.   Not that Wikipedia is the be-all, end all....but even if it's the 80% accurate that it usually is...this is just wrong.

The lowest level of female circumcision involves the removal of the clitoris....rendering it virtually impossible for the woman to ever achieve orgasm...or by extension, enjoy sex at all.   And it's all in the name of the idea that they will somehow become sex maniacs if this isn't done.

There is NO version of this that's acceptable....and anyone who performs it (IMHO) should be castrated.

You're going to trust Wikipedia over something I read in a college course on Anthropology?

Do be fair, you didn't elaborate on what your supposed "not too bad" version of this horrifying act could possibly be....and additionally, the fact is that removal of the clitoris *IS* the most widely understood version of "female circumcision".    If you have some lesser known "not so bad" version of this...the onus is on you to clarify.

[Super Dude]

No it isn't, I don't owe you anything. All I was saying was that one shouldn't mindlessly condemn something just because by our standards it sounds cruel and unusual. We should try to understand it first, and then one can justly claim to reject it on its own terms. As I do.

[jammindude]

So, just to clarify, you are defending the removal of the clitoris at birth as a cultural choice...

[Super Dude]

No, I'm saying you shouldn't automatically reject another culture's customs because they seem strange to you. Try to understand it from their perspective, or even from a larger and more universal view, and if you still think it's intolerable, then fine. But we as individuals cannot hope to claim a universally acceptable moral compass, and so it's necessary to learn from others 'n' stuff.

Whatever, I'm not gonna have this conversation with you. In fact I don't know why I even bothered in the first place, especially when you make your own version of the opponent's argument as you go along. Go ahead and congratulate yourself.

[jammindude]

No, I'm saying you shouldn't automatically reject another culture's customs because they seem strange to you. Try to understand it from their perspective, or even from a larger and more universal view, and if you still think it's intolerable, then fine. But we as individuals cannot hope to claim a universally acceptable moral compass, and so it's necessary to learn from others 'n' stuff.

Whatever, I'm not gonna have this conversation with you. In fact I don't know why I even bothered in the first place, especially when you make your own version of the opponent's argument as you go along. Go ahead and congratulate yourself.

I'm not making this up from nothing.   I'm clarifying to you that this *IS* what you are communicating to me.   Maybe I'm alone in this...but even with your clarification....it sounds to me like you are saying that genital mutilation should not be dismissed entirely due to cultural reasons.

If that's what you're saying, just own it.  You have a right to your opinion, and I'll defend to the death your right to that opinion.  No matter how much I may disagree with it.

[Super Dude]

I'm saying it should not be dismissed outright. That is not the same as defending it, even as a cultural choice. In fact if you look back you'll see that I've said I most certainly do not several times already.

[rumborak]

Every time I read the thread title I have to remind myself it's not another Andy episode.

rumborak

[jsem]

From what I've read (on wiki), Type I doesn't seem too horrid. As long as only the skin is cut off, like the foreskin would be during male circumcision. But cutting off the entire clitoris is imo not right, and Type 3 is about the worst thing I could possible imagine.

It's sad that this practice is so ingrained in so many cultures.

[Odysseus]

Male circumcision is a different issue, and not really comparable to cutting off the clitoris for a female.

I agree that it is a different issue in that it doesn't usually stop a male from enjoying sex.  I would also say that it is an issue in terms of a subject being physically harmed in a situation where the subject is not party to that decision.
But yes, they are two different arguments.  But in both these arguments, we are obliged not to recognise these as being harmful because religion is usually the reason for these actions.

[Orbert]

Every time I read the thread title I have to remind myself it's not another Andy episode.

I thought maybe it was the sequel to "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas".

[Scheavo]

Male circumcision is a different issue, and not really comparable to cutting off the clitoris for a female.

I agree that it is a different issue in that it doesn't usually stop a male from enjoying sex.  I would also say that it is an issue in terms of a subject being physically harmed in a situation where the subject is not party to that decision.
But yes, they are two different arguments.  But in both these arguments, we are obliged not to recognise these as being harmful because religion is usually the reason for these actions.

Oh, I don't support male circumcision either. What's fucked up is that it's standard OP in this country. Took me forever to figure out I was circumcised, and was sorta confused during sex ed when they were talking about the foreskin.

[Super Dude]

How did you not know you were circumcised? Did your parents not tell you?

[Dark Castle]

snip- I don't think  my comment was conductive, so I just removed it.

[Orbert]

How did you not know you were circumcised? Did your parents not tell you?

In my case, and I'm guessing it's the same with a lot of guys, I had no idea that what I had wasn't the way it originally was.  I assumed they all looked like mine, more or less.

At what age is it appropriate for parents to tell their son "By the way, when you were born, we had a doctor chop off the end of your penis"?

[Cool Chris]

In my case, and I'm guessing it's the same with a lot of guys, I had no idea that what I had wasn't the way it originally was.  I assumed they all looked like mine, more or less.

Likewise. And at what point do you catch a glimpse of another one? In the high school showers?

[Scheavo]

How did you not know you were circumcised? Did your parents not tell you?

No. Hell, maybe they didn't even know. Like I said, it's standard procedure to just circumcise male boys, quickly after they're born. I can understand if it's for religious purposes, but it's supposedly for health reasons that don't exist (if anything, the truth is the other way around). I assume it was done at the hospital, becuase my parents are in no way religious, and if it was for a reason, they would've told me.

[jammindude]

I know this from doing it to my son.   I was told that they *couldn't* do it until my boy was 8 days old.   What I was told (not claiming anything other than that) was that they baby's blood doesn't clot well enough that quickly after birth, so I had to wait more than a week and come back.

Now...what I had been led to believe is that it is simply easier to keep clean.    Additionally, I had it done and was always thankful of the fact, just because (and I suppose this is just personal preference) I always thought uncircumcised was just plain unsightly.  (I mean, sorry to all guys who are uncircumcised but....ewww..) 

I don't claim any other reasons than my own, and I don't ever try to convince anyone that my way is right.   It's just a personal preference...and I suppose it's somewhat cultural.   

[jammindude]

snip- I don't think  my comment was conductive, so I just removed it.

I just got it.

Then I LOLed.   

[Scheavo]

I know this from doing it to my son.   I was told that they *couldn't* do it until my boy was 8 days old.   What I was told (not claiming anything other than that) was that they baby's blood doesn't clot well enough that quickly after birth, so I had to wait more than a week and come back.

Now...what I had been led to believe is that it is simply easier to keep clean.    Additionally, I had it done and was always thankful of the fact, just because (and I suppose this is just personal preference) I always thought uncircumcised was just plain unsightly.  (I mean, sorry to all guys who are uncircumcised but....ewww..) 

I don't claim any other reasons than my own, and I don't ever try to convince anyone that my way is right.   It's just a personal preference...and I suppose it's somewhat cultural.

I've seen documentaries and video of them doing it to a baby pretty much just delivered. Some might do it differently, then, but I know a lot of hospitals just do it.