Author Topic: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say  (Read 20334 times)

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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #245 on: May 01, 2012, 08:41:15 PM »
Gay parents and gay relatives can be great sources of love. Feeling loved is a vitally important part to growing up and being a successful member of society. Hell, I might argue it's the most important thing parents can give to their children.

Of course they can be great sources of love; any human being can. I'm not contending that. This has nothing to do with marriage. Just because a person can be loving it doesn't logically entail that such a person can do the logically impossible and "marry" someone of the same sex, no matter how "loving" this or that person may be. As I have stated before, procreation is, in principle, impossible between two members of the same sex. Love does not equal procreation.

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Offline comment

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #246 on: May 01, 2012, 08:59:18 PM »
Sounds like you've read the Bible.  Do you think a non-religious, reasonable person, could put aside their preconceptions, read the Bible, and NOT see the Bible views homosexuality as sin?

I think most non-religious, reasonable people are quite capable of reading the bible and seeing that the contents reflected the views of a bronze age community that could have no real clue about life in the 21st century.   The issue for me is not whether  the bible views homosexuality as a sin, but whether that particular view has any place in a world which has developed beyond all recognition. 

If we take the biblical view a step further, some people might reasonably ask why the fundies don't put their money where their mouth is and actually demand the death penalty for homosexuality?  In for a penny, in for a pound, as we say over here.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Furthermore, it might be asked why our fundie brethren don't go balls-out and get stuck completely in rather than just cherry-picking aspects of scripture that they think they can get away with?  For example, who hasn't muttered curses to their parents when they were young and stupid and wanted that new bike that they couldn't afford?  Do we really want to follow scripture on this too?

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)


I thought not.

It's the 21st century. Whatever you gotta do to have a good time, let's just get on with it as long as it doesn't cause a murder.  Let's not pretend that some ancient tribal deity from Shitkicker, Canaan is going to visit fire and pestilence upon homosexual people out of his 'Infinite Love'.  It's not really an intelligent viewpoint, is it?

 :)  Hey Ody... 

I think those are fair questions answered in a contextual reading of the Bible and not cherry picked out of it.  And just a fun word of caution, I'd be careful with the word "Fundie".  I think it's clever and funny, but it just might become the defamatory label for those who value the Bible and maybe even set off an unreasonable Fundie or two.   :)  Cheers!
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #247 on: May 01, 2012, 09:02:07 PM »
Gay parents and gay relatives can be great sources of love. Feeling loved is a vitally important part to growing up and being a successful member of society. Hell, I might argue it's the most important thing parents can give to their children.

Of course they can be great sources of love; any human being can. I'm not contending that. This has nothing to do with marriage. Just because a person can be loving it doesn't logically entail that such a person can do the logically impossible and "marry" someone of the same sex, no matter how "loving" this or that person may be. As I have stated before, procreation is, in principle, impossible between two members of the same sex. Love does not equal procreation.

Still not clear on the "logically impossible" part of your gay marriage argument, considering it has and still does happen all the time. Same with the procreation bit. Also I notice you never disputed my claim that you think gay love isn't a real thing.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #248 on: May 01, 2012, 09:15:57 PM »
Also I notice you never disputed my claim that you think gay love isn't a real thing.

What? What do you mean "not a real thing"?
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #249 on: May 01, 2012, 09:22:22 PM »
Sorry omega, think you need to leave this discussion. You're not convincing anyone, and the debate is not reaching any agreement.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #250 on: May 01, 2012, 09:30:20 PM »
Also I notice you never disputed my claim that you think gay love isn't a real thing.

What? What do you mean "not a real thing"?

^ Exactly. Sure, those "economic benefits" are important, but maybe you are missing the whole point of marriage, Omega, if you think that gay people want to get married for those reasons instead of because they simply love someone.

Of course it's not for money. I understand that. Yet such is an impossibility just as much as making a round square or meeting a married bachelor or repealing the Pythagorean Theorem. I've explained why so extensively on this thread.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #251 on: May 01, 2012, 09:30:38 PM »
So maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly will homosexual marriage negatively affect anything? Never mind this "natural law" nonsense, how will it have a negative impact on people?
For me, this is really all it comes down to. The bottom line is that legalizing gay marriage would allow thousands of gay people to attain greater happiness and peace in their lives without negatively affecting anything.

From where I'm standing Omega, it looks like you would rather gay people not attain greater happiness and peace just so some definition of marriage can remain unscathed. Is that really worth it? Is it worth denying people like Shadow the right to marry just so you can keep "natural law" intact?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #252 on: May 01, 2012, 09:31:03 PM »
Gay parents and gay relatives can be great sources of love. Feeling loved is a vitally important part to growing up and being a successful member of society. Hell, I might argue it's the most important thing parents can give to their children.

Of course they can be great sources of love; any human being can. I'm not contending that. This has nothing to do with marriage. Just because a person can be loving it doesn't logically entail that such a person can do the logically impossible and "marry" someone of the same sex, no matter how "loving" this or that person may be. As I have stated before, procreation is, in principle, impossible between two members of the same sex. Love does not equal procreation.

Never said love equals procreation, but it is a vital and necessary part to properly raise a child to fit in with society.

As we've been over, and as you've agreed, "procreation" is more than simply impregnating another human being. Gay couples can also still impregnate and become pregnant, as I've also demonstrated (though, not by each other, at least not quite yet*...). So even ignoring the definition of marriage as ONLY ensuring the next generation exists survives, ensuring the next generation is something gay couples, and gay married couples, can partake in.

*Scientists have made sperm and I believe egg cells from stem cells - meaning, two gay women could have an offspring that is genetically theirs, and two gay men could have an offspring that is genetically theirs. Under such a scenario, this means that hypothetically gay couples will now be able to fully achieve what you consider to be a "natural law" marriage, be it through unnatural means. Assuming this, would you still oppose gay marriage? I'm assuming you'd protest the procedure through which gay's could have children?

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #253 on: May 01, 2012, 09:34:20 PM »
So maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly will homosexual marriage negatively affect anything? Never mind this "natural law" nonsense, how will it have a negative impact on people?
For me, this is really all it comes down to. The bottom line is that legalizing gay marriage would allow thousands of gay people to attain greater happiness and peace in their lives without negatively affecting anything.

From where I'm standing Omega, it looks like you would rather gay people not attain greater happiness and peace just so some definition of marriage can remain unscathed. Is that really worth it? Is it worth denying people like Shadow the right to marry just so you can keep "natural law" intact?

Did you ever read Macbeth?  Maybe Omega's definition of natural law is kind of like what happened after Macbeth killed the king.  You know, everything in nature going out of whack because Macbeth disturbed the natural heirarchy.  Maybe he's working so hard to keep marriage intact because if you let gay people marry and sully marriage, then nature will go batshit insane.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #254 on: May 01, 2012, 09:38:46 PM »
Except it wouldn't. Unless your gay, legalizing gay marriage isn't going to effect your marriage. Heterosexual couples will still want to fuck each other, and that'll still lead to children being born. I mean, we also have clear examples of this isn't true. Just look at Massachusetts, or any state where gay marriage has been legalized.

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #255 on: May 01, 2012, 09:39:05 PM »
So maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly will homosexual marriage negatively affect anything? Never mind this "natural law" nonsense, how will it have a negative impact on people?
For me, this is really all it comes down to. The bottom line is that legalizing gay marriage would allow thousands of gay people to attain greater happiness and peace in their lives without negatively affecting anything.

From where I'm standing Omega, it looks like you would rather gay people not attain greater happiness and peace just so some definition of marriage can remain unscathed. Is that really worth it? Is it worth denying people like Shadow the right to marry just so you can keep "natural law" intact?
Precisely.

Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #256 on: May 01, 2012, 09:39:36 PM »
Sorry omega, think you need to leave this discussion. You're not convincing anyone, and the debate is not reaching any agreement.

Ah! Well, excuse me. I don't think I need to "leave" as it were. Thanks for the advice though.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #257 on: May 01, 2012, 09:40:42 PM »
^ Exactly. Sure, those "economic benefits" are important, but maybe you are missing the whole point of marriage, Omega, if you think that gay people want to get married for those reasons instead of because they simply love someone.

Of course it's not for money. I understand that. Yet such is an impossibility just as much as making a round square or meeting a married bachelor or repealing the Pythagorean Theorem. I've explained why so extensively on this thread.

It's simply a misunderstanding. I wasn't saying that "love" is an impossibility; I was saying same-sex "marriage" is.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #258 on: May 01, 2012, 09:43:10 PM »
So maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly will homosexual marriage negatively affect anything? Never mind this "natural law" nonsense, how will it have a negative impact on people?
For me, this is really all it comes down to. The bottom line is that legalizing gay marriage would allow thousands of gay people to attain greater happiness and peace in their lives without negatively affecting anything.

From where I'm standing Omega, it looks like you would rather gay people not attain greater happiness and peace just so some definition of marriage can remain unscathed. Is that really worth it? Is it worth denying people like Shadow the right to marry just so you can keep "natural law" intact?


I explained why it would be "negative" in that page-long post of mine on this alleged "nonsense." You're free to read it at any time.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #259 on: May 01, 2012, 09:45:19 PM »
Did you ever read Macbeth?  Maybe Omega's definition of natural law is kind of like what happened after Macbeth killed the king.  You know, everything in nature going out of whack because Macbeth disturbed the natural heirarchy.  Maybe he's working so hard to keep marriage intact because if you let gay people marry and sully marriage, then nature will go batshit insane.

Can you at least imagine my bewilderment at how people are still unsure what I mean by "Natural Law" ("nonsense" as it has taken to being called now) when I dedicated an entire page to Natural Law (while even that was just an overview of Natural Law)?
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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #260 on: May 01, 2012, 09:50:21 PM »
So maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly will homosexual marriage negatively affect anything? Never mind this "natural law" nonsense, how will it have a negative impact on people?
For me, this is really all it comes down to. The bottom line is that legalizing gay marriage would allow thousands of gay people to attain greater happiness and peace in their lives without negatively affecting anything.

From where I'm standing Omega, it looks like you would rather gay people not attain greater happiness and peace just so some definition of marriage can remain unscathed. Is that really worth it? Is it worth denying people like Shadow the right to marry just so you can keep "natural law" intact?


I explained why it would be "negative" in that page-long post of mine on this alleged "nonsense." You're free to read it at any time.

The problem with that argument is that, in the real world (y'know, where people live) it is kind of proving that it isn't harming anyone or anything unless your definition of marriage is a rigid, unchanging thing between a man and a woman for some reason (ignoring again historical evidence that marriage was very rarely for this strangely specific purpose.  If you were Henry VIII, maybe...). 

You're basing your entire argument on Aristotelian premises that I've mentioned are already inherently flawed (as is any moral philosophy) and your inability to realize or adequately address these faults is what makes it so frustrating to read your posts.  Aristotle was a man, like any other, and men make mistakes. 

Did you ever read Macbeth?  Maybe Omega's definition of natural law is kind of like what happened after Macbeth killed the king.  You know, everything in nature going out of whack because Macbeth disturbed the natural heirarchy.  Maybe he's working so hard to keep marriage intact because if you let gay people marry and sully marriage, then nature will go batshit insane.

Can you at least imagine my bewilderment at how people are still unsure what I mean by "Natural Law" ("nonsense" as it has taken to being called now) when I dedicated an entire page to Natural Law (while even that was just an overview of Natural Law)?

Can you imagine our bewilderment that you've made page-long posts that have no relevance to the world in which we live while we discuss an issue of ensuring everybody has equal rights?  Also, I'm glad the first post of mine you responded to was a joke.  Go me.  I'll have to do that more often.  :biggrin:

Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #261 on: May 01, 2012, 09:52:16 PM »
Sorry omega, think you need to leave this discussion. You're not convincing anyone, and the debate is not reaching any agreement.

Ah! Well, excuse me. I don't think I need to "leave" as it were. Thanks for the advice though.
:lol Maybe I worded that wrong. You yourself don't need to leave per say, but maybe I do. With such a controversial topic, debate of this manner tends to only further reinforce all of our own opinions. It's argument for the sake of argument; a competition to beat our own dead horses. All I was saying is that no one here agrees with your views, and you are not going to convince anyone. However, your persistence is completely fine with me, and it is not my place to tell you how to live your life.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #262 on: May 01, 2012, 09:59:24 PM »
Never said love equals procreation, but it is a vital and necessary part to properly raise a child to fit in with society.

As we've been over, and as you've agreed, "procreation" is more than simply impregnating another human being.

The obligations upon procreation extend further than just birthing a new member of our species, yes, but the main goal of procreation is the generation of a new member of our species, and you'd be unreasonable to deny that. You're losing sight of the primary objective of procreation in an attempt to somehow bridge over the term "procreation" as something that a same-sex couple "could" "do" or "participate in" when by its very principle such a feat would be impossible.

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Gay couples can also still impregnate and become pregnant, as I've also demonstrated (though, not by each other, at least not quite yet*...). So even ignoring the definition of marriage as ONLY ensuring the next generation exists survives, ensuring the next generation is something gay couples, and gay married couples, can partake in.

Exactly, a same-sex couple cannot, in principle, procreate. Hence marriage cannot be something that can be extended to them any more than the right to be recognized as a lizard can be granted to another human, any more than the law of gravity can be repealed.

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*Scientists have made sperm and I believe egg cells from stem cells - meaning, two gay women could have an offspring that is genetically theirs, and two gay men could have an offspring that is genetically theirs. Under such a scenario, this means that hypothetically gay couples will now be able to fully achieve what you consider to be a "natural law" marriage, be it through unnatural means. Assuming this, would you still oppose gay marriage? I'm assuming you'd protest the procedure through which gay's could have children?

"Whatever, dude," as the kids say. This does nothing to change the definition of a same-sex couple, who, in principle, cannot procreate. It would be as analogous and as absurd as to saying "Well, a lesbian in a same-sex couple could go get pregnant through natural heterosexual means and come back to her same-sex partner and then 'marry' her, right?" Wrong. That would do nothing to change the understanding of same-sex couples in principle.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #263 on: May 01, 2012, 10:00:57 PM »
I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. Someone please lock it.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #264 on: May 01, 2012, 10:02:12 PM »
I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. Someone please lock it.
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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #265 on: May 01, 2012, 10:02:45 PM »
John Marsten would be ashamed.

Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #266 on: May 01, 2012, 10:03:41 PM »
:lol Maybe I worded that wrong. You yourself don't need to leave per say, but maybe I do. With such a controversial topic, debate of this manner tends to only further reinforce all of our own opinions. It's argument for the sake of argument; a competition to beat our own dead horses. All I was saying is that no one here agrees with your views, and you are not going to convince anyone. However, your persistence is completely fine with me, and it is not my place to tell you how to live your life.

I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. Someone please lock it.

If you don't want to take part of the conversation:

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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #267 on: May 01, 2012, 10:03:56 PM »
(Accidental Double Post; Ignore)
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #268 on: May 01, 2012, 10:04:17 PM »
Okay, guy who's probably younger than me.
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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #269 on: May 01, 2012, 10:06:43 PM »
If you don't want to take part of the conversation:



No u

Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #270 on: May 01, 2012, 10:12:36 PM »
The problem with that argument is that, in the real world (y'know, where people live) it is kind of proving that it isn't harming anyone or anything unless your definition of marriage is a rigid, unchanging thing between a man and a woman for some reason. 

Okay, but if we were to follow out the path of that logic, "marrying" a cartoon character, then, isn't "hurting" anybody and thus should be allowed. Or do you want now to present a rigid, unchanging "definition" of marriage?


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You're basing your entire argument on Aristotelian premises that I've mentioned are already inherently flawed (as is any moral philosophy) and your inability to realize or adequately address these faults is what makes it so frustrating to read your posts.  Aristotle was a man, like any other, and men make mistakes. 

There was no critique or demonstration of flaws with Aristotelian final & formal causes; you simply stated comments along the line of "well, you see, there's just a lot of assumptions, I think" or "Aristotle was a man and he made mistakes. Therefore, everything he wrote on can be condemned as just a 'bunch of mistakes.'"


If you don't want to take part of the conversation:



No u

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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #271 on: May 01, 2012, 10:13:28 PM »
No, but seriously.... This is some scary shit.


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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #272 on: May 01, 2012, 10:17:26 PM »
I think this thread has outlived its usefulness on page two when gay marriage was compared to marriage to a cartoon.  Someone please lock it.

Fixed.
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline Ryzee

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #273 on: May 01, 2012, 10:26:31 PM »
I think the moral of this thread is, if Omega really wants to marry his comic book, none of us here at DTF are gonna judge him.

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #274 on: May 01, 2012, 10:27:41 PM »
The problem with that argument is that, in the real world (y'know, where people live) it is kind of proving that it isn't harming anyone or anything unless your definition of marriage is a rigid, unchanging thing between a man and a woman for some reason. 

Okay, but if we were to follow out the path of that logic, "marrying" a cartoon character, then, isn't "hurting" anybody and thus should be allowed. Or do you want now to present a rigid, unchanging "definition" of marriage?
That doesn't logically follow though.  As has been mentioned before, its a slippery slope.  You're making a leap from the idea of two people marrying to a person marrying something without a semblance of consciousness.  Its certainly possible that one can fall in love with a cartoon character, surely, but the cartoon can't reciprocate that.  It can't make its own decisions.  No its technically not hurting anybody, but you're not making an argument that can be compared to what we're actually talking about.  We're talking about giving human beings equal rights.  Until a cartoon character comes to life with its own AI, it can't even be considered alive.  That's nowhere near the same thing unless gay people aren't really alive somehow. 

Quote
You're basing your entire argument on Aristotelian premises that I've mentioned are already inherently flawed (as is any moral philosophy) and your inability to realize or adequately address these faults is what makes it so frustrating to read your posts.  Aristotle was a man, like any other, and men make mistakes. 

There was no critique or demonstration of flaws with Aristotelian final & formal causes; you simply stated comments along the line of "well, you see, there's just a lot of assumptions, I think" or "Aristotle was a man and he made mistakes. Therefore, everything he wrote on can be condemned as just a 'bunch of mistakes.'"
[/quote]
I'm not saying everything he wrote about can be condemned as a bunch of mistakes.  There's a lot we can learn, but we can't just assume that everything he wrote about was right.  The real process of learning, as I'm sure he would tell you himself, is to look at things skeptically.  I feel that his moral philosophy doesn't really hold water, and it certainly doesn't hold water the way you are utilizing it. 

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #275 on: May 01, 2012, 10:30:19 PM »
I think the moral of this thread is, if Omega really wants to marry his comic book, none of us here at DTF are gonna judge him.

I'll judge him.
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #276 on: May 01, 2012, 10:33:31 PM »
I think the moral of this thread is, if Omega really wants to marry his comic book, none of us here at DTF are gonna judge him.
:lol

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #277 on: May 01, 2012, 10:33:38 PM »
CARTOONOPHOBE!

Offline Ryzee

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #278 on: May 01, 2012, 10:35:28 PM »
I think the moral of this thread is, if Omega really wants to marry his comic book, none of us here at DTF are gonna judge him.

I'll judge him.

Well obviously YOU would with your crazy right wing worldview.

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #279 on: May 01, 2012, 10:38:50 PM »
Now now cartoons have just as much rights as humans. In fact, they should have more.