Author Topic: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say  (Read 20338 times)

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #210 on: May 01, 2012, 11:26:49 AM »
Yes.   The bible is referring back to the earliest time as to why there were marriages prior to its writing.  If you know of an earlier document that references the origins of marriage, I am interested

Offline Shadow2222

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #211 on: May 01, 2012, 11:33:08 AM »
I've never chimed in on anything in the P&R section before, since it's not necessarily my cup of tea (the discussions, I mean, as I both vote and consider myself a Christian).

However, being one of the only gay people on the forum (as far as I know), I wanted to tell a story.

I was bullied quite a bit during middle school and high school for my sexuality, to the point where I wanted to just "turn straight." As most gay people know, it is impossible, as being gay (IMO) is not a choice. I wasn't even quite sure why I was made fun of, because I am not effeminate in my actions or speech. I never dated anyone through school because I was too afraid.

Fast forward to the end of my first year of college, and I meet a wonderful man named Tim. He is four years older than me, and he is beautiful to me, both on the outside and inside. He offcially asked me out after about a month of talking to each other and going out.

April 14, 2012 already marked one year and two months together. It may be my first relationship, but i am not naive. I truly love him, and he loves me. Sure, we argue, but it only strengthens our bond. We fully intend to marry each other some day. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio, where it is not even close to being legal. We aren't trying to hurt anyone, nor offend anyone's religion, so I just can't understand how anyone can be a detractor of gay marriage. We love each other, and that's what matters. We can certainly live without getting married, but it makes us feel like we have to keep our relationship hush hush.

Well, that's my two cents.
"A pitch black night unfolds with the morning star as its only light... and thus the saga... begins" - Shenhua (Shenmue series)

Offline ehra

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #212 on: May 01, 2012, 11:38:54 AM »
Things are hard now but they're slowly getting better. Hopefully one day you'll be able to tie the knot.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #213 on: May 01, 2012, 11:49:19 AM »
I've never chimed in on anything in the P&R section before, since it's not necessarily my cup of tea (the discussions, I mean, as I both vote and consider myself a Christian).

However, being one of the only gay people on the forum (as far as I know), I wanted to tell a story.

I was bullied quite a bit during middle school and high school for my sexuality, to the point where I wanted to just "turn straight." As most gay people know, it is impossible, as being gay (IMO) is not a choice. I wasn't even quite sure why I was made fun of, because I am not effeminate in my actions or speech. I never dated anyone through school because I was too afraid.

Fast forward to the end of my first year of college, and I meet a wonderful man named Tim. He is four years older than me, and he is beautiful to me, both on the outside and inside. He offcially asked me out after about a month of talking to each other and going out.

April 14, 2012 already marked one year and two months together. It may be my first relationship, but i am not naive. I truly love him, and he loves me. Sure, we argue, but it only strengthens our bond. We fully intend to marry each other some day. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio, where it is not even close to being legal. We aren't trying to hurt anyone, nor offend anyone's religion, so I just can't understand how anyone can be a detractor of gay marriage. We love each other, and that's what matters. We can certainly live without getting married, but it makes us feel like we have to keep our relationship hush hush.

Well, that's my two cents.
:tup Thanks for sharing.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #214 on: May 01, 2012, 12:19:41 PM »
I've never chimed in on anything in the P&R section before, since it's not necessarily my cup of tea (the discussions, I mean, as I both vote and consider myself a Christian).

However, being one of the only gay people on the forum (as far as I know), I wanted to tell a story.

I was bullied quite a bit during middle school and high school for my sexuality, to the point where I wanted to just "turn straight." As most gay people know, it is impossible, as being gay (IMO) is not a choice. I wasn't even quite sure why I was made fun of, because I am not effeminate in my actions or speech. I never dated anyone through school because I was too afraid.

Fast forward to the end of my first year of college, and I meet a wonderful man named Tim. He is four years older than me, and he is beautiful to me, both on the outside and inside. He offcially asked me out after about a month of talking to each other and going out.

April 14, 2012 already marked one year and two months together. It may be my first relationship, but i am not naive. I truly love him, and he loves me. Sure, we argue, but it only strengthens our bond. We fully intend to marry each other some day. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio, where it is not even close to being legal. We aren't trying to hurt anyone, nor offend anyone's religion, so I just can't understand how anyone can be a detractor of gay marriage. We love each other, and that's what matters. We can certainly live without getting married, but it makes us feel like we have to keep our relationship hush hush.

Well, that's my two cents.

Yes.  Thanks for sharing

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #215 on: May 01, 2012, 12:19:51 PM »
I've never chimed in on anything in the P&R section before, since it's not necessarily my cup of tea (the discussions, I mean, as I both vote and consider myself a Christian).

However, being one of the only gay people on the forum (as far as I know), I wanted to tell a story.

I was bullied quite a bit during middle school and high school for my sexuality, to the point where I wanted to just "turn straight." As most gay people know, it is impossible, as being gay (IMO) is not a choice. I wasn't even quite sure why I was made fun of, because I am not effeminate in my actions or speech. I never dated anyone through school because I was too afraid.

Fast forward to the end of my first year of college, and I meet a wonderful man named Tim. He is four years older than me, and he is beautiful to me, both on the outside and inside. He offcially asked me out after about a month of talking to each other and going out.

April 14, 2012 already marked one year and two months together. It may be my first relationship, but i am not naive. I truly love him, and he loves me. Sure, we argue, but it only strengthens our bond. We fully intend to marry each other some day. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio, where it is not even close to being legal. We aren't trying to hurt anyone, nor offend anyone's religion, so I just can't understand how anyone can be a detractor of gay marriage. We love each other, and that's what matters. We can certainly live without getting married, but it makes us feel like we have to keep our relationship hush hush.

Well, that's my two cents.

Respect  :hat

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #216 on: May 01, 2012, 12:23:47 PM »
I've never chimed in on anything in the P&R section before, since it's not necessarily my cup of tea (the discussions, I mean, as I both vote and consider myself a Christian).

However, being one of the only gay people on the forum (as far as I know), I wanted to tell a story.

I was bullied quite a bit during middle school and high school for my sexuality, to the point where I wanted to just "turn straight." As most gay people know, it is impossible, as being gay (IMO) is not a choice. I wasn't even quite sure why I was made fun of, because I am not effeminate in my actions or speech. I never dated anyone through school because I was too afraid.

Fast forward to the end of my first year of college, and I meet a wonderful man named Tim. He is four years older than me, and he is beautiful to me, both on the outside and inside. He offcially asked me out after about a month of talking to each other and going out.

April 14, 2012 already marked one year and two months together. It may be my first relationship, but i am not naive. I truly love him, and he loves me. Sure, we argue, but it only strengthens our bond. We fully intend to marry each other some day. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio, where it is not even close to being legal. We aren't trying to hurt anyone, nor offend anyone's religion, so I just can't understand how anyone can be a detractor of gay marriage. We love each other, and that's what matters. We can certainly live without getting married, but it makes us feel like we have to keep our relationship hush hush.

Well, that's my two cents.

You mean you don't just hold sodomy parties every night?  :omg:

But seriously, thank you for sharing.  Please contribute more for the benefit of humanity.  :tup

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #217 on: May 01, 2012, 12:26:37 PM »
Thanks for sharing Shadow!
:TOX: <-- My own emoticon!

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #218 on: May 01, 2012, 01:49:10 PM »
Shadow, that is awesome. Thank you for sharing that with all of us. :tup
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As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
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Offline Shadow2222

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #219 on: May 01, 2012, 01:54:45 PM »
I truly appreciate the kind words, and it simply reaffirms why this forum is so important to me. Thanks, everyone.

I may not have the post count to show it, but I've been here for just over three years, and you guys helped me through some tough situations when I was still new here. Seriously, thank you guys.
"A pitch black night unfolds with the morning star as its only light... and thus the saga... begins" - Shenhua (Shenmue series)

Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #220 on: May 01, 2012, 02:48:32 PM »
Note: this post does not just address your comments, Scheavo.

I've addressed this numerous times, and you ignore it.

By the way, marriage has not always been simply about procreation. Study Spanish society in the 1500's. Marriage was a contractual agreement, like it should be today, that clearly was more about economics than child rearing. Bastards were accepted and common at that time, and they had a place in the household.

So really, your argument not only is ignoring counter arguments, but it's historically unsound.

Are you kidding? Why do you think that the institution of marriage was established and has been attended to throughout history? To get tax breaks and to be able to visit your wife or husband at the hospital circa 1500 AD? The establishment of marriage, grounded upon obvious and basic biological, metaphysical, social, and practical foundations, has always existed to attend to the obligations and nourishing responsibilities attendant upon procreation and the raising of valuable and productive members of society. The reason for the existence of marriage is painfully obvious to anyone willing to stop blocking their ears with their hands screaming "No! No! No! That cannot be what marriage is because it doesn't conform to my irrational support of same-sex 'marriage'!" The institution of marriage was not established simply so that Janet and Bob could visit each other in the hospital when Bob comes down with explosive diarrhea again; nor as an elaborate, nefarious economic scheme to trick governing authorities into extending tax cuts and other financial benefits; nor as to grant social permission to flaunt a golden band on the ring finger or to invite a select group of easily-inebriated socialites to some fancy wedding reception in a tropical Thailand resort; nor to allow two grown men to play House together in their forties.

This isn't just some "arbitrary" or "narrow" definition of marriage. There is no "your definition" of marriage nor "my definition" of marriage. But by supporting same-sex "marriage," you're destroying the very necessity for the institution of marriage! For if to oversee the responsibilities attendant upon both procreation, the nourishment, and raising of a productive member of society are to be understood as irrelevant to marriage, then why marry in the first place? You've reduced marriage to become an "unnecessary" vestige of a "once-backwards" society; a simple socio-economic tool to be abused by all who see fit. Besides that, you're simply saying that "marriage" can be understood to be whatever the majority of people in a democracy "feel" "marriage" should be defined as. You have, in fact, opened any redefinition of "marriage" open to challenge! So why think that your redefinition of "marriage" won't be come to be seen as "backwards" and "outdated" by people in the near future, disgusted at the thought of being deemed "intolerant" by peers or the media for not supporting a "marriage" as absurd as that with a cartoon? After all, they wouldn't want to "discriminate" against cartoonophiles, would they? Once you have removed marriage from its foundations, you have determined that "marriage" could be understood with no basis apart from one's own arbitrary whim. So then, why think that "a binding contract between two people" is not then open to challenge? "At the end of the day, who cares?" One such supporter of interdimensional marriage could say. "Why can't they just leave it be?  No one is forcing anyone to marry a comic book character if they don't want to. Bottom line: mind your own business, please." Once you have reduced "marriage" to be determined by people's opinions, you have done the very thing that I warned you you'd be doing; you're acting as if the institution has no basis apart from your own arbitrary whim and, in doing so, have exposed any attempted "redefinition" of "marriage" as open to challenge as much as the heterosexual principle. I've also (if you have even bothered noticing) made no references to any biblical claims nor theological grounds and you needn't be religious to agree with the points I'm making. Opposing same-sex "marriage" is no more associated with any sort of a "religious moral" any more than being opposed to a law that attempted to institutionalize an impossibility as attempt to repeal the law of gravity or some such nonsense as same-sex "marriage." And, as I have stated in one of my arguments ad nauseum: where procreation is, in principle, impossible, marriage is meaningless and logically impossible. ("In principle" means "relating to the definition of" as in "not relating to particular circumstances." So if an orange happens to have a bug residing in its insides, the bug is not part of the definition of an orange; it doesn't change what the orange is in principle.) Human beings reason and make laws by means of concepts and definitions. And if one doesn't know how to operate with respect to those concepts and definitions, that individual cannot make laws. Examples of individuals who are impotent or who are infertile or past the childbearing age do not change the definition of marriage in principle because between a man and a woman, in principle, procreation is always possible. It is this very possibility which gave rise to the institution of marriage in the first place as a matter of law and government. But as when procreation is impossible, as with two males or two females, it isn't that this is incidentally impossible; it is impossible in principle!

Of course infertile heterosexual couples can marry; of course heterosexual couples past the childbearing age can marry, for, in principle (as in "not relating to particular circumstances" and as in "relating to the definition of"), between a man and a woman, procreation is always possible in principle! Procreation is never possible either in principle or incidentally between two people of the same sex.


« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 05:29:59 PM by Omega »
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #221 on: May 01, 2012, 02:51:28 PM »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #222 on: May 01, 2012, 02:53:55 PM »
I've never chimed in on anything in the P&R section before, since it's not necessarily my cup of tea (the discussions, I mean, as I both vote and consider myself a Christian).

However, being one of the only gay people on the forum (as far as I know), I wanted to tell a story.

I was bullied quite a bit during middle school and high school for my sexuality, to the point where I wanted to just "turn straight." As most gay people know, it is impossible, as being gay (IMO) is not a choice. I wasn't even quite sure why I was made fun of, because I am not effeminate in my actions or speech. I never dated anyone through school because I was too afraid.

Fast forward to the end of my first year of college, and I meet a wonderful man named Tim. He is four years older than me, and he is beautiful to me, both on the outside and inside. He officially asked me out after about a month of talking to each other and going out.

April 14, 2012 already marked one year and two months together. It may be my first relationship, but i am not naive. I truly love him, and he loves me. Sure, we argue, but it only strengthens our bond. We fully intend to marry each other some day. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio, where it is not even close to being legal. We aren't trying to hurt anyone, nor offend anyone's religion, so I just can't understand how anyone can be a detractor of gay marriage. We love each other, and that's what matters. We can certainly live without getting married, but it makes us feel like we have to keep our relationship hush hush.

Well, that's my two cents.

Shadow, I understand the possibility that my opposition to same-sex "marriage" may lead people to believe that I'm some sort of bully who condones the verbal, emotional, and physical abuse of homosexuals. That is not the case, I'd like to say. I sympathize with you to some extent and would not be against, as I have stated -- regardless of my position on same-sex "marriage" -- with the idea of providing legitimate same-sex couples with some of the economic benefits they desire (as well as being able to visit one another in the hospital, etc).
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #223 on: May 01, 2012, 02:58:19 PM »
The establishment of marriage, grounded upon obvious and basic biological, metaphysical, social, and practical foundations, has always existed to attend to the obligations and nourishing responsibilities attendant upon procreation and the raising of valuable and productive members of society.

Factually incorrect.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #224 on: May 01, 2012, 03:00:53 PM »
Omega:

Quote
Are you kidding? Why do you think that the institution of marriage was established and has been attended to throughout history? To get tax breaks and to be able to visit your wife or husband at the hospital circa 1500 AD? The establishment of marriage, grounded upon obvious and basic biological, metaphysical, social, and practical foundations, has always existed to attend to the obligations and nourishing responsibilities attendant upon procreation and the raising of valuable and productive members of society. The reason for the existence of marriage is painfully obvious to anyone willing to stop blocking their ears with their hands screaming "No! No! No! That cannot be what marriage is because it doesn't conform to my irrational support of same-sex 'marriage'!" The institution of marriage was not established simply so that Janet and Bob could visit each other in the hospital when Bob comes down with explosive diarrhea again; nor as an elaborate, nefarious economic scheme to trick governing authorities into extending tax cuts and other financial benefits; nor as to grant social permission to flaunt a golden band on the ring finger or to invite a select group of easily-inebriated socialites to some fancy wedding reception in a tropical Thailand resort.

Ya know, you should really study some history. There's a lot on it, especially regarding marriage and gender norms. It changes from society to society, and it fits what that society seems to consider important, and how they structure themselves. It's almost like you're completely unaware of polygamy, or how almost all early human societies practiced polygamy.

Quote
For if to oversee the responsibilities attendant upon both procreation, the nourishment, and raising of a productive member of society are to be understood as irrelevant to marriage, then why marry in the first place?

Way to ignore the argument while saying your are addressing the argument. Very impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ

You should really watch that video, and read his new book on the issue: My Two Moms.




Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #225 on: May 01, 2012, 03:03:04 PM »
Scheavo, the issue at hand isn't whether (Insert Name Here) would have liked to have been raised by a homosexual couple, nor is it the question of whether kids raised by homosexual couples are more happy members of society, etc.
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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #226 on: May 01, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »
So there's absolutely no possibility that the meaning of a word can change over time?  Absolutely none?  Hey Shadow2222, is it cool if I just start using the term "fag" indiscriminately?  I'm only referring to a bundle of sticks, not using a slur against your sexuality.  I'm not even referring to the British slang for cigarettes!  To do so is impossible! :facepalm:

Omega, how the hell does allowing same-sex marriage invalidate any need for marriage?  From what I can see, marriage is more about the union between two people who love each other, and that's the way it has been for a loooong time now.  Those people don't have to get married to show that love, but they can if they want to.  It has nothing to with facilitating procreation and had nothing to do with facilitating procreation back when it was more of a contract between two families.  Again, I'd also like to point out that there are plenty of animals with no concept of marriage (like ducks.  Look 'em up.  They're fucking serial rapists), and really we're just animals who can build cities and guns. 

As for your slippery slope argument, again, I have to stress, marriage is between two consenting individuals.  You can't force someone to marry without the law coming to stop you (at least not here).  For your inane cartoon argument, a cartoon can't think, feel, express, or do anything outside of what its creators put onto the screen or the page.  Forget marriage, any kind of mutual connection between the two is impossible.  Its not impossible for such a bond to exist between homosexual people, as Shadow2222 and plenty of irl people I know have demonstrated.  Will this definition change in the future?  Its certainly possible, but I don't see it happening as long as people believe in rights of consent.

Offline Ryzee

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #227 on: May 01, 2012, 03:10:08 PM »
MUST...NOT..POST..IN...THIS...THREAD......AARRAGGHHGHKSDHGDJGLKJ!!!!!

Ok screw it I can't resist any longer.


Serious question for you Omega, so I can better understand where you're coming from: what is your relationship status?  Are you married?  Have a girlfriend (or boyfriend, which obviously seems unlikely but really you never know)?  And if the answer to either of these is no, my next question would be: have you ever been in a relationship (with another person)?

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #228 on: May 01, 2012, 03:14:03 PM »
Omega:

Um, ya it is. Your definition of marriage, as natural law, is , YOUR QUOTE, "the nourishment, and raising of a productive member of society." Gay people can help in this, and as the above also demonstrates, in today's day in age, they can also be involved in the procreation as well.

You're trying to say our definition dissolves into meaninglessness, becuase it doesn't do the above. I'm showing a definition of marriage which includes homosexuals as marrying, which doesn't throw out any of the aspects of a marriage which you deem necessary. So, forgetting that definitions of social institutions are subjective, if I take your definition of marriage, homosexual marriage does not break said definition.

So I repeat: gay marriage and homosexuality FITS the "natural law" definition of marriage you are giving. THe reason it works, is becuase no one is saying that gay marriage become the "new rule," or something, whereby only gays can marry, or something. Since that isn't the case, straight people will continue to fuck each other and produce children, some of the time unwantingly, and gay couples and gay persons can help in raising and nourishing these children - through adoption, or just being involved in your nieces and nephews lives.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #229 on: May 01, 2012, 03:27:30 PM »
I've never chimed in on anything in the P&R section before, since it's not necessarily my cup of tea (the discussions, I mean, as I both vote and consider myself a Christian).

However, being one of the only gay people on the forum (as far as I know), I wanted to tell a story.

I was bullied quite a bit during middle school and high school for my sexuality, to the point where I wanted to just "turn straight." As most gay people know, it is impossible, as being gay (IMO) is not a choice. I wasn't even quite sure why I was made fun of, because I am not effeminate in my actions or speech. I never dated anyone through school because I was too afraid.

Fast forward to the end of my first year of college, and I meet a wonderful man named Tim. He is four years older than me, and he is beautiful to me, both on the outside and inside. He officially asked me out after about a month of talking to each other and going out.

April 14, 2012 already marked one year and two months together. It may be my first relationship, but i am not naive. I truly love him, and he loves me. Sure, we argue, but it only strengthens our bond. We fully intend to marry each other some day. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio, where it is not even close to being legal. We aren't trying to hurt anyone, nor offend anyone's religion, so I just can't understand how anyone can be a detractor of gay marriage. We love each other, and that's what matters. We can certainly live without getting married, but it makes us feel like we have to keep our relationship hush hush.

Well, that's my two cents.

Shadow, I understand the possibility that my opposition to same-sex "marriage" may lead people to believe that I'm some sort of bully who condones the verbal, emotional, and physical abuse of homosexuals. That is not the case, I'd like to say. I sympathize with you to some extent and would not be against, as I have stated -- regardless of my position on same-sex "marriage" -- with the idea of providing legitimate same-sex couples with some of the economic benefits they desire (as well as being able to visit one another in the hospital, etc).

I'm sorry but the fact that anyone can respond this way after such a heartfelt personal outpouring seems kinda heartless imo. I'm fairly certain the economic benefits are only a part of why Shadow would want to get married.
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Offline Shadow2222

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #230 on: May 01, 2012, 03:30:44 PM »
^ Exactly. Sure, those "economic benefits" are important, but maybe you are missing the whole point of marriage, Omega, if you think that gay people want to get married for those reasons instead of because they simply love someone.

Tim told me yesterday, "I love you, and I have no doubts that I will be your husband some day."

He didn't say, "I have no doubts that I will be your husband some day, because of the economic benefits that come with it."
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #231 on: May 01, 2012, 03:36:56 PM »
^ Exactly. Sure, those "economic benefits" are important, but maybe you are missing the whole point of marriage, Omega, if you think that gay people want to get married for those reasons instead of because they simply love someone.

Tim told me yesterday, "I love you, and I have no doubts that I will be your husband some day."

He didn't say, "I have no doubts that I will be your husband some day, because of the economic benefits that come with it."
Exactly. Marriage between same-sex couples and opposite sex are the exact same sort of thing as far as I'm concerned. Two people love each other, and they wish to be wed. What is so offensive about that that it must be stopped at all costs?

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #232 on: May 01, 2012, 03:38:23 PM »
I truly could care less if a gay couple wants to get married.  It doesn't affect my heterosexual life at all.



The only people that are affected are gay couples that want to marry and lawyers who have a bigger pool for divorce court. :lol
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #233 on: May 01, 2012, 03:43:24 PM »
So Omega, your argument is (apologies for my shitty argument form):

1. The original purpose of marriage was to get people to procreate
2. Gay people cannot procreate
3. Gay marriage destroys the original purpose of marriage because gay people cannot procreate
---
4. Therefore, gay marriage should not be allowed because it destroys the original purpose of marriage

Is that basically what you're saying?
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #234 on: May 01, 2012, 05:34:04 PM »
Serious question for you Omega, so I can better understand where you're coming from: what is your relationship status?  Are you married?  Have a girlfriend (or boyfriend, which obviously seems unlikely but really you never know)?  And if the answer to either of these is no, my next question would be: have you ever been in a relationship (with another person)?

I've had a fair share of girlfriends. I'm not old enough to be considering marriage yet. Accordingly, of course I've been in a relationship with another person. Why am I being psycho-analyzed?
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Offline Ryzee

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #235 on: May 01, 2012, 05:50:53 PM »
Serious question for you Omega, so I can better understand where you're coming from: what is your relationship status?  Are you married?  Have a girlfriend (or boyfriend, which obviously seems unlikely but really you never know)?  And if the answer to either of these is no, my next question would be: have you ever been in a relationship (with another person)?

I've had a fair share of girlfriends. I'm not old enough to be considering marriage yet. Accordingly, of course I've been in a relationship with another person. Why am I being psycho-analyzed?

Just curious, since you have a very specific idea of what marriage is I was just wondering how much hands on (no pun intended) experience you had in that area.  Your answer is interesting, educational and has been noted.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #236 on: May 01, 2012, 06:01:09 PM »
Omega:

Um, ya it is. Your definition of marriage, as natural law, is , YOUR QUOTE, "the nourishment, and raising of a productive member of society." Gay people can help in this, and as the above also demonstrates, in today's day in age, they can also be involved in the procreation as well.

My more full quote was actually the following (I've taken the liberty to bold some important points in the quote):

"Suppose then (if you must, in the name of "for the sake of the argument"), that things really do have final causes, including our various biological capacities. Then, obviously, the final cause or natural purpose of sex is procreation. And procreation is inherently heterosexual (the fact that people can be cloned or that some people have sex other than for procreation like pleasure is irrelevant; it isn't important what our purposes are, rather it is important what nature's purposes are in the Aristotelian sense of final causality). In human beings, procreation is not just a matter of producing new organisms, but also forming them into persons capable of fulfilling their nature as distinctively rational animals. The final causality of sex thus pushes inevitably in the direction of at least some variation on the institution of marriage, and marriage exists for the purpose of not only to generate and nourish offspring biologically but also culturally."

So, no, of course a same-sex couple can't be involved in procreation. At best, Scheavo, you could make a huge stretch and suggest that people of homosexual orientation could impart some of their accumulated cultural wisdom upon children already born to a heterosexually married couple to "aid", if allowed by the parents of child, in the cultural knowledge of children just as much as would a repentant murderer be able to, perhaps, if allowed, be granted the ability to pass on the cultural knowledge or wisdom he has gained throughout his life (yet this would, obviously, do nothing to warrant allowing an impossibility such as same-sex "marriage" to be institutionalized). But obviously this is not procreation. The biological and cultural nourishment occurs in the context and confines of a marriage between a man and a woman.

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So, forgetting that definitions of social institutions are subjective

You are, again, acting as if the institution has no basis apart from one's own arbitrary whim. If marriage really is subjective, as in dependent upon opinion, then there's no foundation, justification or reason to allow some peoples' "ideas" of "marriage" and not others. For example, if the institution of marriage really is just subjective and has no basis apart from our own opinions, then we have no reason to disallow someone from doing the absurd and marrying their own foot or a trash can! At best we could say that we "don't like it," but we wouldn't be justified in disallowing such a "marriage" to occur.

Quote
So I repeat: gay marriage and homosexuality FITS the "natural law" definition of marriage you are giving.

Of course not. Absolutely not. It seems almost as if you've decided not to read anything I posted on Natural Law or anything else I've addressed.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #237 on: May 01, 2012, 06:03:15 PM »
Just curious, since you have a very specific idea of what marriage is I was just wondering how much hands on (no pun intended) experience you had in that area.  Your answer is interesting, educational and has been noted.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.

No problemo.

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Sorry. This thread needed a laugh.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #238 on: May 01, 2012, 06:07:14 PM »
^ Exactly. Sure, those "economic benefits" are important, but maybe you are missing the whole point of marriage, Omega, if you think that gay people want to get married for those reasons instead of because they simply love someone.

Of course it's not for money. I understand that. Yet such is an impossibility just as much as making a round square or meeting a married bachelor or repealing the Pythagorean Theorem. I've explained why so extensively on this thread.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #239 on: May 01, 2012, 06:08:45 PM »
So Omega, your argument is (apologies for my shitty argument form):

1. The original purpose of marriage was to get people to procreate
2. Gay people cannot procreate
3. Gay marriage destroys the original purpose of marriage because gay people cannot procreate
---
4. Therefore, gay marriage should not be allowed because it destroys the original purpose of marriage

Is that basically what you're saying?

No, please: I've articulated my arguments clearly ad nauseum and would not like to see them get misrepresented or "summed-up" when they cannot and should not be. Sorry.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #240 on: May 01, 2012, 06:38:12 PM »
Comparing upbringing by a gay person to upbringing by a murderer and telling a gay person he can't feel love. Now I've seen everything.
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As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #241 on: May 01, 2012, 06:52:25 PM »
Comparing upbringing by a gay person to upbringing by a murderer and telling a gay person he can't feel love. Now I've seen everything.

I never said one is like the other. I didn't compare the two, they are independent examples.
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #242 on: May 01, 2012, 07:16:49 PM »
So maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly will homosexual marriage negatively affect anything? Never mind this "natural law" nonsense, how will it have a negative impact on people?

Offline comment

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #243 on: May 01, 2012, 07:59:18 PM »
I contend that a reasonable person, without presuppositions or beliefs, could read the Bible and see that a Biblical worldview, in the case of homosexuality, is defined as sin.  Therefore, leaders of a biblical community are irresponsible by disregarding their guide book to publicly affirm and rejoice for behavior that their guidebook says brings death.
There are no reasonable people without presupposition or beliefs.  If there were, they wouldn't identify a "Biblical worldview."  They wouldn't view the Bible as anything different than any other book of stories.

But if there were such people, they would also read that eating shellfish and women having short hair, among other things, are also sins.  So how seriously should they take that?

 :)  Hef...

I contend that a reasonable person, without preconceived ideas, could read the Bible and see a Biblical view that defines homosexuality as sin.  I also contend, that a reasonable person, without preconceived ideas could read the Bible and conclude that marriage, from the Bible's view, is a coupling of men and women.  I think it would be fair minded for that person to conclude that leaders of a community, that have a Biblical worldview, are irresponsible by publicly "affirming" and "rejoicing" for behavior that their guidebook views as sin.  And also irresponsible by encouraging a homosexual coupling for marriage.

How serious they take what they read is the fundamental/nominal distinction you made earlier.  I don't think it's necessarily that, but that's fair.  In this case though, I think someone whose reasonable could read the Bible for the first time and then read this threads internet article and go  :o "WHAT??  Did they read the same book I read?  Their leaders of a community that uses that book as a guide and their "rejoicing" at WHAT?"  I think it's a reasonable scenario and conclusion.  I know it's not popular, but this is religion after all.   :angel:  That same person may not agree with the Bible and think it's unreasonable in todays world, but I think they could make a fair distinction on what a biblical view is for certain issues.  Maybe not shellfish, but homosexuality...I think so.
Contend away.

No, I think I'll end the contention convention, regarding this article.  :)

Sounds like you've read the Bible.  Do you think a non-religious, reasonable person, could put aside their preconceptions, read the Bible, and NOT see the Bible views homosexuality as sin?
Not without seeing a host of other strange things as sin.  So such a person wouldn't take the Bible seriously at all.

Okay, that's fair. 


I'm just adding this on for a fun way of illustrating my point in a lighthearted manner...   :)
Someone new to the DTF, reads the rules.

"5. Keep your language reasonable. Repeated and inappropriate usage of explicit language is forbidden. ...."

Then they read a moderators reply right underneath them that violates it.   :)  I know it's meant to be funny, but one could say irresponsible.  The same principle could be applied to what these leaders in this article have stated publicly against what their Bible says. 

« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 08:41:28 PM by comment »
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gay Marriage Is Nothing To Fear, Bishops Say
« Reply #244 on: May 01, 2012, 08:05:49 PM »
So, no, of course a same-sex couple can't be involved in procreation. At best, Scheavo, you could make a huge stretch and suggest that people of homosexual orientation could impart some of their accumulated cultural wisdom upon children already born to a heterosexually married couple to "aid", if allowed by the parents of child, in the cultural knowledge of children just as much as would a repentant murderer be able to, perhaps, if allowed, be granted the ability to pass on the cultural knowledge or wisdom he has gained throughout his life (yet this would, obviously, do nothing to warrant allowing an impossibility such as same-sex "marriage" to be institutionalized). But obviously this is not procreation. The biological and cultural nourishment occurs in the context and confines of a marriage between a man and a woman.

You keep talking about the cultural nourishment. That's some gay couples do well, perhaps exceedingly well. You seem to have decided to ignore the example I already gave you, becuase it falsifies your last statement, that such only occurs in a marriage between a man and a woman.

Gay parents and gay relatives can be great sources of love. Feeling loved is a vitally important part to growing up and being a successful member of society. Hell, I might argue it's the most important thing parents can give to their children.

You continue to ignore the fact that gay couples can raise and educate children and orphans.

And comparing this to a murderer?  :facepalm:


Quote
Quote
So, forgetting that definitions of social institutions are subjective

You are, again, acting as if the institution has no basis apart from one's own arbitrary whim. If marriage really is subjective, as in dependent upon opinion, then there's no foundation, justification or reason to allow some peoples' "ideas" of "marriage" and not others. For example, if the institution of marriage really is just subjective and has no basis apart from our own opinions, then we have no reason to disallow someone from doing the absurd and marrying their own foot or a trash can! At best we could say that we "don't like it," but we wouldn't be justified in disallowing such a "marriage" to occur.

Ahh, once again, you display your massive misunderstanding of social theory, and social relativism. And, once again, you completely ignore the argument being made. Are you even trying to understand the argument? Are you even trying to see what other peoples arguments and points of view are?

Quote
Quote
So I repeat: gay marriage and homosexuality FITS the "natural law" definition of marriage you are giving.

Of course not. Absolutely not. It seems almost as if you've decided not to read anything I posted on Natural Law or anything else I've addressed.

Actually, quite the opposite, I've read your argument, I've seen what you're going for, and I'm showing you how homosexuality and gay marriage fits in line with "natural law." I'm taking the definition you are giving, I'm working with the definition you are giving, and I'm showing you how this definition works with homosexuality.