Author Topic: Why is Murder Wrong?  (Read 17988 times)

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Offline Omega

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Why is Murder Wrong?
« on: April 09, 2012, 11:27:59 AM »
Why is stabbing someone in the chest repeatedly with a butcher knife until said person dies morally wrong? It may have been presented in an over-the-top fashion, but this is a serious question.

Many people think it's just prima facie wrong to kill another human, which I would argue clearly is, but never actually justify it aside from that. "Well, it's just obvious, you know? I mean, I wouldn't want to be murdered!"

I'm interested to hear why the murdering of another human being is wrong in the context of your worldview.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 11:39:27 AM »
1.  Because murder is irrevocably doing objective harm to another person against his/her will.  And
2.  Because God said so.
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Offline Elite

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 11:44:47 AM »
I read the thread title and couldn't help but laugh, for some reason.

And. It is wrong because you take something from a person and people around him that can never be given back. A life is the most precious thing someone possesses and it's simply not there anymore when you take it.
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Offline obscure

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 11:48:59 AM »
Is it  :omg:






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Offline robwebster

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 11:53:41 AM »
Well, if you're getting into the debate that "right" and "wrong" are just social constructs and in an objective universe they have no place and everything is technically neutral, then -- yep, pretty much. Well done.

However, as right and wrong are by their very nature social constructs designed to prevent ourselves from enacting unsolicited harm upon our fellow humans, "murder" falls squarely into the "wrong" category by the very nature of categorisation, seeing as it deprives our fellow people of not just one right or one possession, but everything they've ever known and every thought they've ever had.

Yes, wrongness itself is basically subjective and something we've made up as higher functioning sentient beings, but if you entertain any concept of rightness and wrongness whatsoever then murder broadly falls squarely into the "wrong" category with more or less no ambiguity whatsoever by most definitions. It's not so much a question of "is murder a wrong thing" as "is wrongness a thing?" If wrongness is a thing then of course murder's wrong.

It's a bit (if not much) like saying "what makes Dream Theater rock music?" Yep, rock music's pretty much a concept that we've made up ourselves for our own convenience and in a neutral universe it'd all just be music (or sounds, or noise)... but the second you've got the concept laid out and you're thinking in a universe defined by those principles, the question kind of becomes empty.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:59:16 AM by robwebster »

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 11:53:54 AM »
I would say that killing another person is not always wrong.  There may be a justifiable reason.  I think more information and context is needed.

Murder, defined as an unlawful killing of another with malice and/or forethought, without a justifiable reason, is wrong.  It is wrong because you have taken away something from another person without his/her permission or acceptable justification.
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Offline jasc15

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 11:59:03 AM »
It's "wrong" because (most) people like to live, rather than die.  Every other reason is superfluous.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 12:27:59 PM »
Murder is wrong for many reasons, all of which should be evident to anybody who isn't batshit insane.

1) People, on the whole, prefer to live rather than die. Everybody but the sociopathic should be able to understand this and empathize.
2) When you kill somebody, you're doing away with their life, and that life is not yours to take.
3) Hurting somebody -- say, stabbing someone in the face without killing him -- is already morally wrong, because this is unjustly diminishing someone else's quality of life. Murder is diminishing someone else's quality of life, but to one extreme.

You may note that people do want to die sometimes; can't a person consent to death, by this logic? This is a more complex issue. The state's opinion on the matter is generally that you are mentally ill if you have a good quality of life but would still like to die.

Plain old murder, however, the unjustifiable killing of another human, is just wrong, no matter how you look at it. Society cannot function when you're free to stab anybody and everybody in the face.

EDIT: I'll note that a lot of people are relying on God to support their belief that murder is wrong. This is worrisome and we should avoid it; if God were proven nonexistent tomorrow (not that such a thing would ever be possible), it would not suddenly become okay to stab faces.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 12:39:41 PM by theseoafs »

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »
because only the Creator (the one who gave it in the first place) has the authority to take a life (and those He grants that authority to, ie. governing authorities)

Offline ZBomber

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 12:35:46 PM »
because only the Creator (the one who gave it in the first place) has the authority to take a life (and those He grants that authority to, ie. governing authorities)

What? How does he do that? What governments are authorized to do that and which ones aren't?

Offline robwebster

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 12:44:12 PM »
because only the Creator (the one who gave it in the first place) has the authority to take a life (and those He grants that authority to, ie. governing authorities)
While I do totally respect your opinion and your religion, and think a good religious text is a superb way to define one's personal morality, I would argue that it's very important to divorce it from general morality, in a world where there are about as many different doctrines as countries.

Then again, I'm not religious, so I don't know. I can't know. That might be easier said than done. Heck, might be completely impossible. And it's certainly a creed the US was founded on, so it's totally relevant, and good call, sir. I'm not criticising; just playing devil's advocate, given that we don't know whether the OP might be an atheist or a pantheist or a fully paid-up member of Heaven's Gate.

Offline Omega

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »
Allow me to preface this by stating that I, obviously, believe murder is both intuitively and objectively wrong. On what basis do I claim this? I assert that morality is objective, grounded in God. By objective, I mean independent of people's opinions. Therefore, I see the statement "murder (or rape, genocide -- etc) is wrong" as true as the statement "2 + 2 = 4" (or is it 5? I'm no bueno with math, mister).

Now, given naturalism, there's just no way you can derive moral values or duties from a test tube. You cannot get an ought from an is. Science is morally neutral. It follows immediately that moral values and duties don't really exist. They're just illusions of human beings. Even if the naturalist is willing to go beyond the bounds of science, why think, given a naturalistic worldview, that human beings are morally valuable? On a naturalistic view, moral values are just the by-product of biological evolution and social conditioning. Just as a troop of baboons exhibit cooperative and even self-sacrificial behavior because natural selection has determined it to be advantageous in the struggle for survival, so their primate cousin Homo sapiens exhibit similar behavior for the same reason. As a result of sociobiological pressures there has evolved among Homo sapiens a sort of "herd morality," which functions well in the perpetuation of our species. But on an atheistic worldview, there doesn't seem to be anything about Homo sapiens that makes this morality objectively true. If I we were to rewind the tape of human evolution back to the beginning and start anew, people with very different set of moral values might well have evolved.

For us to think that human beings are special or that our morality objectively true is to succumb to the temptation to speciesism, an unjustified bias toward one's own species. So if there is no God, any basis for regarding the herd morality evolved by Homo sapiens as objectively true seems to have been removed. Take God or objective morality out of the picture, and all you're left with is an apelike creature on a speck of dust beset with delusions of moral grandeur.

Certain actions such as incest or rape or murder may not be biologically and socially advantageous and so in the course of human history have become taboo, but that does nothing to show that rape or murder or incest is objectively wrong. The murderer or rapist who goes against the herd morality is doing nothing more serious than acting unfashionably.

So while it would obviously be inconvenient to the person being murdered to have his or her life taken away, there's no reason, given naturalism, to see murder as objectively wrong. While most people would obviously rather live than die, this gives us no reason to see murder as objectively wrong if morality is seen as nothing but a man-made construct. While a society may not function too well with a bunch of murderers (or if murder impedes an idea of progress), that doesn't mean that murder is objectively wrong.


« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 08:41:24 PM by Omega »
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 01:09:31 PM »
If objective morality is defined as morality not dependent on human opinion, and if God does not exist, then there's no reason murder should be wrong.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 01:17:10 PM »
You've basically hit the nail on the head here, Omega. There's nothing here I disagree with. You're right to notice that morality, from a naturalistic point of view, doesn't exist.

But our civilization relies on morality nonetheless, as well as a slew of other things that don't really exist in concrete terms at all, like government and power and justice and causality and reason. How do we justify this? There are a couple ways to fill in the gaps here. If you ask me, I'd say that humans have an emergent property -- they are more than the sum of the parts. Somewhere down the line, humans acquired the ability to reason and create works of literary, visual, and musical art. Humans have genuine emotions, and are able to apply their intellects to accomplish far greater things than any other species.

Humans are bigger than animals. They are emotional and spiritual and reasonable; they create order in a world without order. We are advanced enough that the goal of humanity is no longer to continue to propagate the human race; the human race will continue no matter what happens, honestly. Humanity has bigger aspirations. To me, this fact implies a moral code -- humans are capable of greater things than other species, and as a result they should operate under a higher code of conduct. Each person is inherently valuable, whereas I really don't care one way or another what happens to any particular chipmunk.

Offline AcidLameLTE

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 01:18:29 PM »
If objective morality is defined as morality not dependent on human opinion, and if God does not exist, then there's no reason murder should be wrong.
We wouldn't have survived very long as a species if we all thought murder was an okay thing to do.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 01:21:16 PM »
If objective morality is defined as morality not dependent on human opinion, and if God does not exist, then there's no reason murder should be wrong.
We wouldn't have survived very long as a species if we all thought murder was an okay thing to do.
Yes, that's correct. So?
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Offline AcidLameLTE

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 01:22:51 PM »
How did our ancestors cope before God told everyone that murder wasn't cool?

Offline ehra

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 01:24:05 PM »
As has been pointed out countless times before, when people who don't believe in objective morality say "murder is wrong" it's shorthand for saying "it is my personal opinion based on my own subjective beliefs that it is wrong to kill another person in cold blood." It's just that no one spells it out because most people don't need it spelled out for them.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 01:28:55 PM »
How did our ancestors cope before God told everyone that murder wasn't cool?
I'm guessing in the same way that people do today. They just blindly hold to the notion that murder is wrong (or that survival/thriving of the human species is right), even though they have no basis for that belief.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 01:32:21 PM »
To OP:

Because I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Why do I do this so strongly? Probably genetics, a combination of my parents, and my experiences as a kid, and culture in general (which, by the way, completely lacked any religion).

Kant does a fairly good job of rationalizing this logic, but I always keep John Stuart Mill in the back of my mind.

By the way, I think you want to ask this question to a psychopath. Me stating that I believe what I believe because of my experience, DNA, etc, is going to have the same effect as if I said that I believe what I believe because of "God" - as in, none. You stating that murder is wrong becuase of your God who makes it objectively true, doesn't make a psychopath any more moral. And on the same note, it doesn't make you any more moral than me; our actions determines our morality, not our beliefs.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2012, 01:33:10 PM »
ITT, people can display their shoddy understanding of human nature.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2012, 01:37:06 PM »
Me stating that I believe what I believe because of my experience, DNA, etc, is going to have the same effect as if I said that I believe what I believe because of "God" - as in, none.

That's okay with me.  My answer was not designed to have an effect on anyone. 

And on the same note, it doesn't make you any more moral than me; our actions determines our morality, not our beliefs.

That's not the point.  Nobody is arguing for a morality contest.  I think what Omega is implicitly arguing is the question of whether objective morality exists.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2012, 01:44:33 PM »
None of that is relevant to the truth, Sheavo. If morality is objective, then it doesn't matter how you arrive to a moral lifestyle. Even if you can't justify objective morality, you can still live it out (or not). You could believe in a round Earth because you read it in a comic book. It's a terrible reason to believe in a round Earth, but it's still a correct belief.

The question is whether or not a belief in objective morality is justified. Given a godless world, I see no reason to believe that there exist objective morals outside of the opinion of human beings.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2012, 01:45:57 PM »
It just seems as if the reasons Omega needs an objective morality is becuase a perspective morality (not the same thing as subjective) isn't firm enough, and doesn't allow you to make statements like "murder is wrong." We can come up with many ways to demonstrate to someone that murder is wrong, and we don't need to introduce God into the equation. As long as we teach those lessons, we'll be in the same position as if we taught God, as far as I can see.


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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2012, 01:46:40 PM »
The question is whether or not a belief in objective morality is justified. Given a godless world, I see no reason to believe that there exist objective morals outside of the opinion of human beings.

Is anyone here actually arguing otherwise?
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2012, 01:48:09 PM »
because only the Creator (the one who gave it in the first place) has the authority to take a life (and those He grants that authority to, ie. governing authorities)

What? How does he do that? What governments are authorized to do that and which ones aren't?

in particular, Romans 13 discusses that all governing authorities are ordained by God (ie. the position rather than the person, necessarily) and have been given the sword to punish evil and reward good.  The fact that this does not often happen (the governments of the period of Rom 13 were especially corrupt) does not change the universal plan of God's intention for authority.  The authorities, however, who abuse that God-given right will eventually have to face the authority of God.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2012, 01:48:33 PM »
By the way, I think you want to ask this question to a psychopath.

Interestingly enough, if you subscribe to moral subjectivism, "psychopaths" don't actually exist. By subjective I mean "dependent on people's opinions." Given moral subjectivism, a "psychopath" is nothing more than an individual whose opinion on what is moral and what is not is merely different than yours (or what is thought to be "moral" among the majority). This means that any individual who belongs in a minority that holds differing moral opinions -- however benign or malicious they may be -- would be a psychopath.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2012, 01:49:29 PM »
because only the Creator (the one who gave it in the first place) has the authority to take a life (and those He grants that authority to, ie. governing authorities)
While I do totally respect your opinion and your religion, and think a good religious text is a superb way to define one's personal morality, I would argue that it's very important to divorce it from general morality, in a world where there are about as many different doctrines as countries.

Then again, I'm not religious, so I don't know. I can't know. That might be easier said than done. Heck, might be completely impossible. And it's certainly a creed the US was founded on, so it's totally relevant, and good call, sir. I'm not criticising; just playing devil's advocate, given that we don't know whether the OP might be an atheist or a pantheist or a fully paid-up member of Heaven's Gate.


while I appreciate your humility and caution in your post, you offended me and are now banned permamently

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Offline ehra

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2012, 01:51:28 PM »
By the way, I think you want to ask this question to a psychopath.

Interestingly enough, if you subscribe to moral subjectivism, "psychopaths" don't actually exist. By subjective I mean "dependent on people's opinions." Given moral subjectivism, a "psychopath" is nothing more than an individual whose opinion on what is moral and what is not is merely different than yours (or what is thought to be "moral" among the majority). This means that any individual who belongs in a minority that holds differing moral opinions -- however benign or malicious they may be -- would be a psychopath.

Sorry, but moral subjectivity doesn't magically change the definition of words. A psychopath isn't someone who merely holds differing moral opinions.

Offline Omega

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2012, 01:53:12 PM »
It just seems as if the reasons Omega needs an objective morality is becuase a perspective morality (not the same thing as subjective) isn't firm enough, and doesn't allow you to make statements like "murder is wrong." We can come up with many ways to demonstrate to someone that murder is wrong, and we don't need to introduce God into the equation. As long as we teach those lessons, we'll be in the same position as if we taught God, as far as I can see.

Call it "Subjective Morality" or "Perspective Morality" or "Schmespectic Schmorality," if there are no objective moral values and duties, then no actions are either prohibited nor obligatory, "wrong" or "right," "good" or "evil."
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2012, 01:53:25 PM »
By the way, I think you want to ask this question to a psychopath.

Interestingly enough, if you subscribe to moral subjectivism, "psychopaths" don't actually exist. By subjective I mean "dependent on people's opinions." Given moral subjectivism, a "psychopath" is nothing more than an individual whose opinion on what is moral and what is not is merely different than yours (or what is thought to be "moral" among the majority). This means that any individual who belongs in a minority that holds differing moral opinions -- however benign or malicious they may be -- would be a psychopath.

Sorry, but moral subjectivity doesn't magically change the definition of words. A psychopath isn't someone who merely holds differing moral opinions.

This

Also, I adhere to moral perspectivism. I would please request that you understand what this means.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2012, 01:53:51 PM »
None of that is relevant to the truth, Sheavo. If morality is objective, then it doesn't matter how you arrive to a moral lifestyle. Even if you can't justify objective morality, you can still live it out (or not). You could believe in a round Earth because you read it in a comic book. It's a terrible reason to believe in a round Earth, but it's still a correct belief.

The question is whether or not a belief in objective morality is justified. Given a godless world, I see no reason to believe that there exist objective morals outside of the opinion of human beings.

Seeing as how we cant know the truth, even if we saw it, I don't see the problem with this. I live my life according to what I view as moral, and it's something I constantly question and try to improve. If, at the end of the day, there's a God and I chose wrongly, then I would consider that God evil, and not worth worshiping.

What if "objective morality" is murder is not wrong, but that in fact murder is justified and the right thing to do? How would you prove otherwise?

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2012, 01:54:24 PM »
Hearing that divinely ordained morals are necessary is like hearing from a drug addict that it's the drug that calms him down, and thus he recommends it to everyone, because without it he would go apeshit. Whereas all the clean people stand there scratching their heads, because they're totally fine without it.

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2012, 01:55:28 PM »
Here we are with the objective morals thread part deux.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=30708.0
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Offline Omega

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong?
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2012, 01:56:55 PM »
Sorry, but moral subjectivity doesn't magically change the definition of words. A psychopath isn't someone who merely holds differing moral opinions.

What is a psychopath?
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