Author Topic: Anything related to automobiles  (Read 36454 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #700 on: April 24, 2019, 07:47:03 PM »
I've owned 4 cars in my life, and my 2004 manual Mazda3 hatchback was easily my favorite. Perfect balance of performance, storage capacity, fuel economy, and comfort. Other than the syncros being garbage, it gave me no issues.

I currently have a 2015 Mazda CX-9 that I also enjoy, but it's not exactly what I'd call "fun". It's surprisingly nimble and quick, and it corners great for a vehicle of that size (AWD), but it's still a pretty big vehicle.

I like Mazdas.

Offline Chino

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #701 on: April 26, 2019, 07:21:39 AM »
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/25/tesla-model-3-performance-crushes-fossil-bmw-m3-around-race-track/


Pretty good head-to-head write up by Top Gear Magazine on the Model3 vs a BMW M3 


Top Gear magazine has track tested the Tesla Model 3 Performance head to head against fossil fans favorite sports saloon, the BMW M3. The track times were conducted on the 2 mile Thunderhill Raceway Park West circuit, with the Tesla coming in a significant 2 seconds ahead of the (more expensive) BMW. Fossils must now accept all-round inferiority in the performance realm. 



The BMW M3 was born in 1986, and has been continuously developed and improved by BMWs motor sport division ever since (over 3 decades now). It has long been viewed as offering the pinnacle of mid-sized sports sedan performance.

The Tesla Model 3 is the first full electric mid-sized sedan ever mass produced by any automaker, and the platform was developed for efficiency, zero emissions, autonomy, and technology (amongst other things), not primarily for performance. The very first iteration of an electric mid-sized sedan to have a performance option beating out the longstanding stalwart of fossil fueled sports sedans does not bode well for the old tech. After all, the fossil technology has already benefited from over a century of refinements and improvements. If we look 5 or 10 years down the road, what refinements and improvements will EV technology gain, to further the performance lead over fossils?

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #702 on: April 26, 2019, 07:37:05 AM »
That's pretty cool.  I'm not a huge car guy but my coworker is and talks about M3's a lot.  In fact a guy who works for the building here has a "fake" M3 that we always make fun of.  I wouldn't be able to know this, but my coworker knows that the mods he put onto his car to make it look like an M3 are just that, mods and not genuine but this guy acts like its all legit and seemingly doesn't know my coworker knows it's fake.

Anyway, I read that the Tesla stock took a hit this week due to lower demand https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/04/25/why-tesla-stock-fell-thursday.aspx I have no idea how their business model works.  My one banker friend thinks Elon is a fraud.  My other friend think's he's like our savior.  I have no idea what to think, but I do think the tech is really cool especially if it can outperform tradition gas engines.

Offline Chino

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #703 on: April 26, 2019, 08:02:16 AM »
I never understood the "Elon is a Fraud" types. First off, what do they mean by "fraud"? Are they implying he's scamming people out of money? How? One I hear thrown around a lot is "he got a $500M loan from the government". Yeah, and? He put in $100M of his own money in on top of that and then paid the loan back 9 years ahead of schedule. Meanwhile, their competitor at the time, Fisker, received a similar $160M loan, missed their first payment, and then collapsed without paying it back. 

Like the guy or not, the dude is a genius. He made $165M when he sold Paypal to Ebay. He was one of the creators and owned the largest share of stock (11%). He took that entire sum of money and put 100% of it into founding SpaceX. Literally all of it. He had to borrow money to rent a place to live at that time. If the guy was just trying to get rich, he wouldn't need to "fraud" or scam someone out of money to do it, and starting a rocket company would be one of the most retarded and risky ways to go about it. He'd just start another tech company of some kind.   

Tesla is very much like Amazon right now in regards to operation. They "lost" $700M, but it's not like they're just hemorrhaging cash trying to stay afloat. They are constantly building up their infrastructure for the future. They're bringing their gigafactories online (the largest enclosed structures on the planet). They're expanding their super charging networks constantly, with nearly 2000 stations (not individual chargers) currently in operation around the globe. They have a semi-truck that's about to go into mass production, the Model Y going into production the following year, and their pickup truck following that. All of that requires factories, labor, and supply chains. The fact that Tesla has been able to manage and accomplish all of this in under 15 years blows my fucking mind. Seeing them compete and perform better than stuff that took companies with a century's worth of R&D to accomplish is pretty incredible.


« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 08:29:57 AM by Chino »

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #704 on: April 26, 2019, 08:40:25 AM »
Fossils must now accept all-round inferiority in the performance realm.[/i] 

I don't know about that, especially since this is more "honest" (in terms of faithful):

Quote
If we look 5 or 10 years down the road, what refinements and improvements will EV technology gain, to further the performance lead over fossils?[/i]

You have ONE car, set against an arbitrary competitor (let's try this against the Hell Cat, or some of the limited run Corvettes...) so let's not get too hyped up over what is essentially the "Squeeze" of performance cars, but that's not to say it's not impressive.

And I certainly do not get the "Elon Is A Fraud" complaints either.  This is EXACTLY how it's supposed to be done!    THIS is what we need in Pharma, in healthcare, in countless industries where our politicians use corporate failure and hurt people as "chits" to get one over on the "other side".   

I don't LOVE Musk, but I have a decent amount of respect for him, foibles and all.  I wish we'd tackle more problems like this.

(And for the record - it's been published; I'm sure there's me saying this somewhere buried over at MP.com; if not over at the old Genesis forum:    THIS is what is going to get lesser performance, less expensive electric cars to be more prevalent.All those soccer mom's that drive the huge gas-guzzling SUV's around town? Not one of them gives FUCK ONE what powers that car.   If electric stations were as prevalent as gas stations, if it got the rug rats to band practice or school or sports as fast and without hassle, they would buy electric just as easily as gas.)

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #705 on: April 26, 2019, 08:43:16 AM »
My banker friend always says something is fishy about his companies money and their stock.  I don't know, you'd probably have to discuss with him for more details, but I almost never agree with him on anything but at least value his opinion as he knows business and money more so than I do.  I don't know if he is a fraud or not, I think he's a really odd guy though and maybe that leads to him being misunderstood.  I watched some of his Joe Rogan interview (where he smoked pot, although I don't know if he even really since it looked like he may never had tried before and probably didnt even inhale) but he came off as a very odd dude to me, but like obviously very smart.

Offline Chino

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #706 on: April 26, 2019, 08:58:07 AM »
Fossils must now accept all-round inferiority in the performance realm.[/i] 

I don't know about that, especially since this is more "honest" (in terms of faithful):

Quote
If we look 5 or 10 years down the road, what refinements and improvements will EV technology gain, to further the performance lead over fossils?[/i]

You have ONE car, set against an arbitrary competitor (let's try this against the Hell Cat, or some of the limited run Corvettes...) so let's not get too hyped up over what is essentially the "Squeeze" of performance cars, but that's not to say it's not impressive.


It's multiple cars at this point though. The Model X and the Model Y would slap an M3 silly around a track. It's the fact that the Model 3 was able to do this that makes it impressive. I wouldn't say it was arbitrary though. Both cars are similar in size and weight. They were within $1000 of each other. Both were the 'performance' version of that iteration. Both were all wheel drive.

Maybe Barto can speak more to this, but to me, the BMW M3 is the baseline for peak 4DR performance. It's a vehicle that can perform amazingly on a track but also get you to and from work in comfort. That's why it was chosen for this test. It's the benchmark that Tesla was aiming for. Audi has been trying to reach that goal forever with the S4 and they always fall up short. Any car company that's trying to build a performance sedan aims to be what the M3 is.

Speaking of Hellcats, here's a video of a Tesla Modeal S P85D drag racing several of them. Keep in mind, this isn't as quick as the P100D, and it still handles itself just fine. Put these two on a track with corners and the Tesla would never lose. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buNOLsd7jzA

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #707 on: April 26, 2019, 09:21:44 AM »
No, no, I get you, and I'm not looking to belittle the Tesla (I'm as big a fan of the M3 as anyone; I have one sitting in my driveway as we speak, albeit not mine, my stepsons)) but the "fossil fans" thing rubbed me the wrong way.  Maybe it's because Tesla is building a legacy as we speak, and BMW has been doing this for at least four decades.  Meaning, you're talking about current models; trust me, my step son is not affording a new Tesla OR a new M3 right now, but has access to that car. 

I'm really not belittling the Tesla; I think it's an awesome development and will change the auto industry.  I've even said, if I win a lottery, I'm going to look hard into the top of the line BMW electric vehicle (I think the badge is i8).

Online El Barto

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #708 on: April 26, 2019, 09:32:30 AM »
Fossils must now accept all-round inferiority in the performance realm.[/i] 

I don't know about that, especially since this is more "honest" (in terms of faithful):

Quote
If we look 5 or 10 years down the road, what refinements and improvements will EV technology gain, to further the performance lead over fossils?[/i]

You have ONE car, set against an arbitrary competitor (let's try this against the Hell Cat, or some of the limited run Corvettes...) so let's not get too hyped up over what is essentially the "Squeeze" of performance cars, but that's not to say it's not impressive.


It's multiple cars at this point though. The Model X and the Model Y would slap an M3 silly around a track. It's the fact that the Model 3 was able to do this that makes it impressive. I wouldn't say it was arbitrary though. Both cars are similar in size and weight. They were within $1000 of each other. Both were the 'performance' version of that iteration. Both were all wheel drive.

Maybe Barto can speak more to this, but to me, the BMW M3 is the baseline for peak 4DR performance. It's a vehicle that can perform amazingly on a track but also get you to and from work in comfort. That's why it was chosen for this test. It's the benchmark that Tesla was aiming for. Audi has been trying to reach that goal forever with the S4 and they always fall up short. Any car company that's trying to build a performance sedan aims to be what the M3 is.

Speaking of Hellcats, here's a video of a Tesla Modeal S P85D drag racing several of them. Keep in mind, this isn't as quick as the P100D, and it still handles itself just fine. Put these two on a track with corners and the Tesla would never lose. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buNOLsd7jzA
I believe there are two M3 drivers here. I've only owned non-M 3's.

I can say that this doesn't really surprise me. Those batteries can fork over a huge amount of torque instantly. My hunch is that the M3 enters and exits the corners faster, but the Tesla easily makes up for it on the straights. The BMW might fair better in an actual race, driver against driver, but the overall gist of the article is correct. I think it also misses some other points, though. There are plenty of reasons to prefer the fossil over the Tesla. Myself, I wouldn't go near one of them.

I'll also point out what I've been saying for a while. At some point BMW is going to produce a proper electric 3-series, and it'll be stupendous. Instant torque combined with perfect 3 series handling will be the end all.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #709 on: April 26, 2019, 10:48:31 AM »
Couple of notes here.

First when it comes to Elon fraud/savior: He is neither, but definitely leans towards the latter. He does have his Trump-isms in that he takes liberally to social media and crowds and makes huge claims and statements. The difference is, time after time, even if it's not quite on the timeline proposed, Elon delivers. The Model S wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model X wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model 3 wasn't viable, and it was made. Okay, but no way they can make over 5,000 a week, and it was. Full self driving is a fool's errand, but by most metrics they either lead the way or are among the leaders. All this while solar roofs and powerwalls start to gain traction. He's not always the smoothest speaker, and is certainly not perfect, but he has a ton of results to his name. Tesla's stated goal is to accelerate the transfer to renewable sources and they are hitting that goal head on.

As for the Model 3 v BMW 3 / Electricity v Fossils debate: The mass market has to catch up, but Tesla has shown the future is here, and that gas vehicles are not a necessity in any realm. For the longest time you had the Nissan Leaf with a sub-100 mile range, which wasn't overly practical for most people. Then you had the S/X which had the range and performance, but were very pricey. Now you have proof positive that there is no reason not to make a transition to renewable. You have a comfortable sedan, reasonably priced, that can take on the biggest performance rival on the track. To me it's not a matter of the exact car comparisons, but simply to show that going forward there is nothing electric cars can't do and no reason not to lean on them going forward.

As for lower demand: Just one of those things people have been saying since the beginning of the company, and yet they continue to sell every car they can physically roll off the line. Even if demand goes down in the US, they've just started tapping China and Europe. During the last quarter the constraint was battery packs from Gigafactory. So they are switching focus to the Standard Range Plus model (with a smaller battery), as it'll allow them to make more cars with the same number of cells.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #710 on: April 26, 2019, 11:06:46 AM »
Couple of notes here.

First when it comes to Elon fraud/savior: He is neither, but definitely leans towards the latter. He does have his Trump-isms in that he takes liberally to social media and crowds and makes huge claims and statements. The difference is, time after time, even if it's not quite on the timeline proposed, Elon delivers. The Model S wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model X wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model 3 wasn't viable, and it was made. Okay, but no way they can make over 5,000 a week, and it was. Full self driving is a fool's errand, but by most metrics they either lead the way or are among the leaders. All this while solar roofs and powerwalls start to gain traction. He's not always the smoothest speaker, and is certainly not perfect, but he has a ton of results to his name. Tesla's stated goal is to accelerate the transfer to renewable sources and they are hitting that goal head on.

As for the Model 3 v BMW 3 / Electricity v Fossils debate: The mass market has to catch up, but Tesla has shown the future is here, and that gas vehicles are not a necessity in any realm. For the longest time you had the Nissan Leaf with a sub-100 mile range, which wasn't overly practical for most people. Then you had the S/X which had the range and performance, but were very pricey. Now you have proof positive that there is no reason not to make a transition to renewable. You have a comfortable sedan, reasonably priced, that can take on the biggest performance rival on the track. To me it's not a matter of the exact car comparisons, but simply to show that going forward there is nothing electric cars can't do and no reason not to lean on them going forward.

As for lower demand: Just one of those things people have been saying since the beginning of the company, and yet they continue to sell every car they can physically roll off the line. Even if demand goes down in the US, they've just started tapping China and Europe. During the last quarter the constraint was battery packs from Gigafactory. So they are switching focus to the Standard Range Plus model (with a smaller battery), as it'll allow them to make more cars with the same number of cells.
I think it depends on your priorities. I personally like road trips. I'll drive from one corner of the country to the other, and I don't see that ever being a possibility in a battery powered car. I recognize that I'm a fossil, just like the BMWs, but to me that's a real loss. There's an Americana aspect that I find value in. I also see it as another step towards vehicles with a fixed life span, which is another big loss. I just don't see any chance of their battery packs being good for much more than 100k, and certainly not the 300k Elon is bragging about. Electric motors don't last forever, either. Whereas if you don't get 250k out of a good IC motor you done really screwed something up with it. Electric cars will eventually take over, but there are definite problems to be addressed before we consider that a good thing.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #711 on: April 26, 2019, 11:19:10 AM »
Couple of notes here.

First when it comes to Elon fraud/savior: He is neither, but definitely leans towards the latter. He does have his Trump-isms in that he takes liberally to social media and crowds and makes huge claims and statements. The difference is, time after time, even if it's not quite on the timeline proposed, Elon delivers. The Model S wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model X wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model 3 wasn't viable, and it was made. Okay, but no way they can make over 5,000 a week, and it was. Full self driving is a fool's errand, but by most metrics they either lead the way or are among the leaders. All this while solar roofs and powerwalls start to gain traction. He's not always the smoothest speaker, and is certainly not perfect, but he has a ton of results to his name. Tesla's stated goal is to accelerate the transfer to renewable sources and they are hitting that goal head on.

As for the Model 3 v BMW 3 / Electricity v Fossils debate: The mass market has to catch up, but Tesla has shown the future is here, and that gas vehicles are not a necessity in any realm. For the longest time you had the Nissan Leaf with a sub-100 mile range, which wasn't overly practical for most people. Then you had the S/X which had the range and performance, but were very pricey. Now you have proof positive that there is no reason not to make a transition to renewable. You have a comfortable sedan, reasonably priced, that can take on the biggest performance rival on the track. To me it's not a matter of the exact car comparisons, but simply to show that going forward there is nothing electric cars can't do and no reason not to lean on them going forward.

As for lower demand: Just one of those things people have been saying since the beginning of the company, and yet they continue to sell every car they can physically roll off the line. Even if demand goes down in the US, they've just started tapping China and Europe. During the last quarter the constraint was battery packs from Gigafactory. So they are switching focus to the Standard Range Plus model (with a smaller battery), as it'll allow them to make more cars with the same number of cells.
I think it depends on your priorities. I personally like road trips. I'll drive from one corner of the country to the other, and I don't see that ever being a possibility in a battery powered car. I recognize that I'm a fossil, just like the BMWs, but to me that's a real loss. There's an Americana aspect that I find value in. I also see it as another step towards vehicles with a fixed life span, which is another big loss. I just don't see any chance of their battery packs being good for much more than 100k, and certainly not the 300k Elon is bragging about. Electric motors don't last forever, either. Whereas if you don't get 250k out of a good IC motor you done really screwed something up with it. Electric cars will eventually take over, but there are definite problems to be addressed before we consider that a good thing.

I mean, some of those problems are already addressed. There are plenty of Model S vehicles on the road with over 200k miles and less than 10% battery degradation. One can only assume they 3 will do even better in that regard. Right now this is only Tesla specific, and I still feel their greatest advantage going forward, but there is nowhere in America you can't go in a Tesla vehicle. Their supercharger network is great and growing.

Using my car as an example. It has 260 miles of range. Let's say I travel 200 miles over 3 or 3.5 hours. Yes, I'm going to have to stop at a supercharger for 30-45 minutes to recharge. But frankly after all that time on the road I'm going to want to eat, go to the bathroom, or just take a short walk or break at some local stores anyway. The only way you'll be limited on road trips with a Model 3, even cross country, is if you're trying to make it in the absolute shortest time possible. And with v3 superchargers just now rolling out even that time will come down.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #712 on: April 26, 2019, 11:26:13 AM »
Couple of notes here.

First when it comes to Elon fraud/savior: He is neither, but definitely leans towards the latter. He does have his Trump-isms in that he takes liberally to social media and crowds and makes huge claims and statements. The difference is, time after time, even if it's not quite on the timeline proposed, Elon delivers. The Model S wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model X wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model 3 wasn't viable, and it was made. Okay, but no way they can make over 5,000 a week, and it was. Full self driving is a fool's errand, but by most metrics they either lead the way or are among the leaders. All this while solar roofs and powerwalls start to gain traction. He's not always the smoothest speaker, and is certainly not perfect, but he has a ton of results to his name. Tesla's stated goal is to accelerate the transfer to renewable sources and they are hitting that goal head on.

As for the Model 3 v BMW 3 / Electricity v Fossils debate: The mass market has to catch up, but Tesla has shown the future is here, and that gas vehicles are not a necessity in any realm. For the longest time you had the Nissan Leaf with a sub-100 mile range, which wasn't overly practical for most people. Then you had the S/X which had the range and performance, but were very pricey. Now you have proof positive that there is no reason not to make a transition to renewable. You have a comfortable sedan, reasonably priced, that can take on the biggest performance rival on the track. To me it's not a matter of the exact car comparisons, but simply to show that going forward there is nothing electric cars can't do and no reason not to lean on them going forward.

As for lower demand: Just one of those things people have been saying since the beginning of the company, and yet they continue to sell every car they can physically roll off the line. Even if demand goes down in the US, they've just started tapping China and Europe. During the last quarter the constraint was battery packs from Gigafactory. So they are switching focus to the Standard Range Plus model (with a smaller battery), as it'll allow them to make more cars with the same number of cells.
I think it depends on your priorities. I personally like road trips. I'll drive from one corner of the country to the other, and I don't see that ever being a possibility in a battery powered car.

This will change in no time. In less than 10 years in the RC world, we've gone from NiMh packs giving me 11-14 minutes of run time to LiPo packs giving me 35-45 minutes. Elon is already claiming the second generation roadster will have a 600 mile range. The day will come when you'll be able to get from New England to Orlando with one stop in between.


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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #713 on: April 26, 2019, 11:40:22 AM »
Personally I have two issues with Teslas. Not knowing anything about how they are designed, they feel like they are made to be more a cool piece of technology instead of a cool car. That's of course, just my opinion. The technology should be an augmentation to the experience of driving, and not the main attraction. Eventually, it's likely that cars will become like washing machines or basic appliances. Sure, they may look okay on the outside, and they do their job well on a consistent basis, but let's face it, no one really gets excited to take their washer for a spin. Especially when self-driving becomes even more prevalent and the experience of driving is removed completely.

My main issue isn't with the cars though. It's the owners - at least in my experiences with them. Tesla owners seem to love to inundate everyone in their vicinity with how awesome and futuristic their car is and it gets really tiring after the 3rd or 20th time I hear it. If someone kept coming into work or to my house talking about how amazing it was to drive there in their S-Class or Maserati, they would be seen at the world's biggest dick.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #714 on: April 26, 2019, 11:47:25 AM »
My main issue isn't with the cars though. It's the owners - at least in my experiences with them. Tesla owners seem to love to inundate everyone in their vicinity with how awesome and futuristic their car is and it gets really tiring after the 3rd or 20th time I hear it. If someone kept coming into work or to my house talking about how amazing it was to drive there in their S-Class or Maserati, they would be seen at the world's biggest dick.

And that is why South Park made some good jokes about it  :lol

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #715 on: April 26, 2019, 11:53:39 AM »
My main issue isn't with the cars though. It's the owners - at least in my experiences with them. Tesla owners seem to love to inundate everyone in their vicinity with how awesome and futuristic their car is and it gets really tiring after the 3rd or 20th time I hear it. If someone kept coming into work or to my house talking about how amazing it was to drive there in their S-Class or Maserati, they would be seen at the world's biggest dick.

I agree, Tesla owners are the absolute worst. :p

In seriousness, two things I agree on, with some caveats. I hate the similarities I sometimes see between Tesla and its drivers and Apple and their users. Those similarities were the biggest strike against Tesla when looking into their vehicles. I also find some of Tesla's drivers, particularly on its official forum to be insufferable and awful.

That said, the reason I went ahead with my purchase, and the reason I will happily talk about it (with interested parties) is that it absolutely lives up to the hype in many ways, and if you are around a service center or store at some point you absolutely should try to drive one.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #716 on: April 26, 2019, 12:01:38 PM »
Personally I have two issues with Teslas. Not knowing anything about how they are designed, they feel like they are made to be more a cool piece of technology instead of a cool car. That's of course, just my opinion. The technology should be an augmentation to the experience of driving, and not the main attraction. Eventually, it's likely that cars will become like washing machines or basic appliances. Sure, they may look okay on the outside, and they do their job well on a consistent basis, but let's face it, no one really gets excited to take their washer for a spin. Especially when self-driving becomes even more prevalent and the experience of driving is removed completely.


Have you ever gone for a ride in one? I did a 0-90 launch in a P100D and it was the most exhilarating thing I've ever experienced in a car, and that includes the time I went down a dragstrip in an 850HP Chevy Monza.

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #717 on: April 26, 2019, 12:06:35 PM »
Personally I have two issues with Teslas. Not knowing anything about how they are designed, they feel like they are made to be more a cool piece of technology instead of a cool car. That's of course, just my opinion. The technology should be an augmentation to the experience of driving, and not the main attraction. Eventually, it's likely that cars will become like washing machines or basic appliances. Sure, they may look okay on the outside, and they do their job well on a consistent basis, but let's face it, no one really gets excited to take their washer for a spin. Especially when self-driving becomes even more prevalent and the experience of driving is removed completely.


Have you ever gone for a ride in one? I did a 0-90 launch in a P100D and it was the most exhilarating thing I've ever experienced in a car, and that includes the time I went down a dragstrip in an 850HP Chevy Monza.

When I had my Model S P85D loaner I took several people (car guys among them) for short spins and there was a lot of "holy fuck" moments. That's what sets these cars apart especially from other electric cars. They aren't just logical, tech heavy, and clean. They are great cars to drive.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #718 on: April 26, 2019, 12:17:25 PM »
Couple of notes here.

First when it comes to Elon fraud/savior: He is neither, but definitely leans towards the latter. He does have his Trump-isms in that he takes liberally to social media and crowds and makes huge claims and statements. The difference is, time after time, even if it's not quite on the timeline proposed, Elon delivers. The Model S wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model X wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model 3 wasn't viable, and it was made. Okay, but no way they can make over 5,000 a week, and it was. Full self driving is a fool's errand, but by most metrics they either lead the way or are among the leaders. All this while solar roofs and powerwalls start to gain traction. He's not always the smoothest speaker, and is certainly not perfect, but he has a ton of results to his name. Tesla's stated goal is to accelerate the transfer to renewable sources and they are hitting that goal head on.

As for the Model 3 v BMW 3 / Electricity v Fossils debate: The mass market has to catch up, but Tesla has shown the future is here, and that gas vehicles are not a necessity in any realm. For the longest time you had the Nissan Leaf with a sub-100 mile range, which wasn't overly practical for most people. Then you had the S/X which had the range and performance, but were very pricey. Now you have proof positive that there is no reason not to make a transition to renewable. You have a comfortable sedan, reasonably priced, that can take on the biggest performance rival on the track. To me it's not a matter of the exact car comparisons, but simply to show that going forward there is nothing electric cars can't do and no reason not to lean on them going forward.

As for lower demand: Just one of those things people have been saying since the beginning of the company, and yet they continue to sell every car they can physically roll off the line. Even if demand goes down in the US, they've just started tapping China and Europe. During the last quarter the constraint was battery packs from Gigafactory. So they are switching focus to the Standard Range Plus model (with a smaller battery), as it'll allow them to make more cars with the same number of cells.
I think it depends on your priorities. I personally like road trips. I'll drive from one corner of the country to the other, and I don't see that ever being a possibility in a battery powered car. I recognize that I'm a fossil, just like the BMWs, but to me that's a real loss. There's an Americana aspect that I find value in. I also see it as another step towards vehicles with a fixed life span, which is another big loss. I just don't see any chance of their battery packs being good for much more than 100k, and certainly not the 300k Elon is bragging about. Electric motors don't last forever, either. Whereas if you don't get 250k out of a good IC motor you done really screwed something up with it. Electric cars will eventually take over, but there are definite problems to be addressed before we consider that a good thing.

I mean, some of those problems are already addressed. There are plenty of Model S vehicles on the road with over 200k miles and less than 10% battery degradation. One can only assume they 3 will do even better in that regard. Right now this is only Tesla specific, and I still feel their greatest advantage going forward, but there is nowhere in America you can't go in a Tesla vehicle. Their supercharger network is great and growing.

Using my car as an example. It has 260 miles of range. Let's say I travel 200 miles over 3 or 3.5 hours. Yes, I'm going to have to stop at a supercharger for 30-45 minutes to recharge. But frankly after all that time on the road I'm going to want to eat, go to the bathroom, or just take a short walk or break at some local stores anyway. The only way you'll be limited on road trips with a Model 3, even cross country, is if you're trying to make it in the absolute shortest time possible. And with v3 superchargers just now rolling out even that time will come down.
Fair enough. I still have my doubts about the batteries, keeping in mind that Texas gets hot, but I'll take your word that they're better than I think.
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Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #719 on: April 26, 2019, 12:30:02 PM »
Yes, I've driven a Model X P90D, and don't get me wrong, it was fast and incredibly smooth. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I did miss the sound. It is startling to put your foot down and hear nothing.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #720 on: April 26, 2019, 12:32:25 PM »
Personally I have two issues with Teslas. Not knowing anything about how they are designed, they feel like they are made to be more a cool piece of technology instead of a cool car. That's of course, just my opinion. The technology should be an augmentation to the experience of driving, and not the main attraction. Eventually, it's likely that cars will become like washing machines or basic appliances. Sure, they may look okay on the outside, and they do their job well on a consistent basis, but let's face it, no one really gets excited to take their washer for a spin. Especially when self-driving becomes even more prevalent and the experience of driving is removed completely.


Have you ever gone for a ride in one? I did a 0-90 launch in a P100D and it was the most exhilarating thing I've ever experienced in a car, and that includes the time I went down a dragstrip in an 850HP Chevy Monza.

When I had my Model S P85D loaner I took several people (car guys among them) for short spins and there was a lot of "holy fuck" moments. That's what sets these cars apart especially from other electric cars. They aren't just logical, tech heavy, and clean. They are great cars to drive.
Yeah, I don't doubt that for a second. At the same time there's definitely some validity to FP's point. It's just not something that's limited to Teslas. All cars are becoming more and more technological, and in doing so they're becoming more and more separated from the driving experience. I'm pretty confident that 0-60 in 3 seconds in a Teslas is a hoot. My guess is that rather than starting the car, putting in Go, and stomping on the pedal you actually have to run down a checklist, setting this and activating that. And even then you're still at the behest of the car as to whether or not you're allowed to do it. This is no different than the M3s that started this discussion. Honestly, despite being years away from fully autonomous cars, we as drivers are being increasingly relegated to passengers. Again, I'm a dinosaur, but I think this is a shame. Rush should get back together and write a song about a futuristic kid who finds his uncle's vintage Model 3, spends 10 minutes trying to figure out how to start the thing, before finally being told he's not allowed to drive it as it's no longer legal in his particular territory.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #721 on: April 26, 2019, 12:34:00 PM »
Couple of notes here.

First when it comes to Elon fraud/savior: He is neither, but definitely leans towards the latter. He does have his Trump-isms in that he takes liberally to social media and crowds and makes huge claims and statements. The difference is, time after time, even if it's not quite on the timeline proposed, Elon delivers. The Model S wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model X wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model 3 wasn't viable, and it was made. Okay, but no way they can make over 5,000 a week, and it was. Full self driving is a fool's errand, but by most metrics they either lead the way or are among the leaders. All this while solar roofs and powerwalls start to gain traction. He's not always the smoothest speaker, and is certainly not perfect, but he has a ton of results to his name. Tesla's stated goal is to accelerate the transfer to renewable sources and they are hitting that goal head on.

As for the Model 3 v BMW 3 / Electricity v Fossils debate: The mass market has to catch up, but Tesla has shown the future is here, and that gas vehicles are not a necessity in any realm. For the longest time you had the Nissan Leaf with a sub-100 mile range, which wasn't overly practical for most people. Then you had the S/X which had the range and performance, but were very pricey. Now you have proof positive that there is no reason not to make a transition to renewable. You have a comfortable sedan, reasonably priced, that can take on the biggest performance rival on the track. To me it's not a matter of the exact car comparisons, but simply to show that going forward there is nothing electric cars can't do and no reason not to lean on them going forward.

As for lower demand: Just one of those things people have been saying since the beginning of the company, and yet they continue to sell every car they can physically roll off the line. Even if demand goes down in the US, they've just started tapping China and Europe. During the last quarter the constraint was battery packs from Gigafactory. So they are switching focus to the Standard Range Plus model (with a smaller battery), as it'll allow them to make more cars with the same number of cells.
I think it depends on your priorities. I personally like road trips. I'll drive from one corner of the country to the other, and I don't see that ever being a possibility in a battery powered car. I recognize that I'm a fossil, just like the BMWs, but to me that's a real loss. There's an Americana aspect that I find value in. I also see it as another step towards vehicles with a fixed life span, which is another big loss. I just don't see any chance of their battery packs being good for much more than 100k, and certainly not the 300k Elon is bragging about. Electric motors don't last forever, either. Whereas if you don't get 250k out of a good IC motor you done really screwed something up with it. Electric cars will eventually take over, but there are definite problems to be addressed before we consider that a good thing.

I mean, some of those problems are already addressed. There are plenty of Model S vehicles on the road with over 200k miles and less than 10% battery degradation. One can only assume they 3 will do even better in that regard. Right now this is only Tesla specific, and I still feel their greatest advantage going forward, but there is nowhere in America you can't go in a Tesla vehicle. Their supercharger network is great and growing.

Using my car as an example. It has 260 miles of range. Let's say I travel 200 miles over 3 or 3.5 hours. Yes, I'm going to have to stop at a supercharger for 30-45 minutes to recharge. But frankly after all that time on the road I'm going to want to eat, go to the bathroom, or just take a short walk or break at some local stores anyway. The only way you'll be limited on road trips with a Model 3, even cross country, is if you're trying to make it in the absolute shortest time possible. And with v3 superchargers just now rolling out even that time will come down.
Fair enough. I still have my doubts about the batteries, keeping in mind that Texas gets hot, but I'll take your word that they're better than I think.

FWIW climate control is by far the biggest factor, outside of maybe driving style on the actual vs. stated range on electric vehicles. I don't know if the same holds true for battery charging speed, but as far as impact on range cold weather tends to have much more impact than hot weather in basically any EV or PHEV I've read on. I'm no expert on the science behind it, but apparently it takes much less electricity to cool a car than it does to warm it.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #722 on: April 26, 2019, 12:35:24 PM »
Yes, I've driven a Model X P90D, and don't get me wrong, it was fast and incredibly smooth. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I did miss the sound. It is startling to put your foot down and hear nothing.

I'm the opposite, that lack of sound is the beauty of the car. Nothing I can stand less than fucking modded out pieces of shit that sound like racecars at 30mph. This is the antithesis of that. All the power you could want, instantly, seemingly effortlessly.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #723 on: April 26, 2019, 12:41:25 PM »
Couple of notes here.

First when it comes to Elon fraud/savior: He is neither, but definitely leans towards the latter. He does have his Trump-isms in that he takes liberally to social media and crowds and makes huge claims and statements. The difference is, time after time, even if it's not quite on the timeline proposed, Elon delivers. The Model S wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model X wasn't viable, and it was made. The Model 3 wasn't viable, and it was made. Okay, but no way they can make over 5,000 a week, and it was. Full self driving is a fool's errand, but by most metrics they either lead the way or are among the leaders. All this while solar roofs and powerwalls start to gain traction. He's not always the smoothest speaker, and is certainly not perfect, but he has a ton of results to his name. Tesla's stated goal is to accelerate the transfer to renewable sources and they are hitting that goal head on.

As for the Model 3 v BMW 3 / Electricity v Fossils debate: The mass market has to catch up, but Tesla has shown the future is here, and that gas vehicles are not a necessity in any realm. For the longest time you had the Nissan Leaf with a sub-100 mile range, which wasn't overly practical for most people. Then you had the S/X which had the range and performance, but were very pricey. Now you have proof positive that there is no reason not to make a transition to renewable. You have a comfortable sedan, reasonably priced, that can take on the biggest performance rival on the track. To me it's not a matter of the exact car comparisons, but simply to show that going forward there is nothing electric cars can't do and no reason not to lean on them going forward.

As for lower demand: Just one of those things people have been saying since the beginning of the company, and yet they continue to sell every car they can physically roll off the line. Even if demand goes down in the US, they've just started tapping China and Europe. During the last quarter the constraint was battery packs from Gigafactory. So they are switching focus to the Standard Range Plus model (with a smaller battery), as it'll allow them to make more cars with the same number of cells.
I think it depends on your priorities. I personally like road trips. I'll drive from one corner of the country to the other, and I don't see that ever being a possibility in a battery powered car. I recognize that I'm a fossil, just like the BMWs, but to me that's a real loss. There's an Americana aspect that I find value in. I also see it as another step towards vehicles with a fixed life span, which is another big loss. I just don't see any chance of their battery packs being good for much more than 100k, and certainly not the 300k Elon is bragging about. Electric motors don't last forever, either. Whereas if you don't get 250k out of a good IC motor you done really screwed something up with it. Electric cars will eventually take over, but there are definite problems to be addressed before we consider that a good thing.

I mean, some of those problems are already addressed. There are plenty of Model S vehicles on the road with over 200k miles and less than 10% battery degradation. One can only assume they 3 will do even better in that regard. Right now this is only Tesla specific, and I still feel their greatest advantage going forward, but there is nowhere in America you can't go in a Tesla vehicle. Their supercharger network is great and growing.

Using my car as an example. It has 260 miles of range. Let's say I travel 200 miles over 3 or 3.5 hours. Yes, I'm going to have to stop at a supercharger for 30-45 minutes to recharge. But frankly after all that time on the road I'm going to want to eat, go to the bathroom, or just take a short walk or break at some local stores anyway. The only way you'll be limited on road trips with a Model 3, even cross country, is if you're trying to make it in the absolute shortest time possible. And with v3 superchargers just now rolling out even that time will come down.
Fair enough. I still have my doubts about the batteries, keeping in mind that Texas gets hot, but I'll take your word that they're better than I think.

FWIW climate control is by far the biggest factor, outside of maybe driving style on the actual vs. stated range on electric vehicles. I don't know if the same holds true for battery charging speed, but as far as impact on range cold weather tends to have much more impact than hot weather in basically any EV or PHEV I've read on. I'm no expert on the science behind it, but apparently it takes much less electricity to cool a car than it does to warm it.
I wasn't looking at it in terms of range, though that's certainly a valid concern. Heat kills batteries. It's the effect of 10 Texas summers on the batteries' lifespans that I have to wonder about.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #724 on: April 26, 2019, 01:30:19 PM »
I can't speak as well to other makers, other than some (most notably the new Leaf) being derided for not having it, but Tesla is said to have an excellent battery thermal management system which is very integral to their long life.

Essentially in high heat you'll experience "vampire drain" where the car loses a few miles of range when it's parked seemingly doing nothing, but what it's actually doing is using some of its electricity to cool the parts of the battery system that need to be cooled to maintain optimum health.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #725 on: April 26, 2019, 02:05:39 PM »
Personally I have two issues with Teslas. Not knowing anything about how they are designed, they feel like they are made to be more a cool piece of technology instead of a cool car. That's of course, just my opinion. The technology should be an augmentation to the experience of driving, and not the main attraction. Eventually, it's likely that cars will become like washing machines or basic appliances. Sure, they may look okay on the outside, and they do their job well on a consistent basis, but let's face it, no one really gets excited to take their washer for a spin. Especially when self-driving becomes even more prevalent and the experience of driving is removed completely.


Have you ever gone for a ride in one? I did a 0-90 launch in a P100D and it was the most exhilarating thing I've ever experienced in a car, and that includes the time I went down a dragstrip in an 850HP Chevy Monza.

When I had my Model S P85D loaner I took several people (car guys among them) for short spins and there was a lot of "holy fuck" moments. That's what sets these cars apart especially from other electric cars. They aren't just logical, tech heavy, and clean. They are great cars to drive.
Yeah, I don't doubt that for a second. At the same time there's definitely some validity to FP's point. It's just not something that's limited to Teslas. All cars are becoming more and more technological, and in doing so they're becoming more and more separated from the driving experience. I'm pretty confident that 0-60 in 3 seconds in a Teslas is a hoot. My guess is that rather than starting the car, putting in Go, and stomping on the pedal you actually have to run down a checklist, setting this and activating that. And even then you're still at the behest of the car as to whether or not you're allowed to do it. This is no different than the M3s that started this discussion. Honestly, despite being years away from fully autonomous cars, we as drivers are being increasingly relegated to passengers. Again, I'm a dinosaur, but I think this is a shame. Rush should get back together and write a song about a futuristic kid who finds his uncle's vintage Model 3, spends 10 minutes trying to figure out how to start the thing, before finally being told he's not allowed to drive it as it's no longer legal in his particular territory.

But that last part has some truth.  Forget about the fuel source, but there's a beauty, a simplicity to an IC engine.   Just last night, I went to NAPA and bought pads, rotors, and a caliper to do brakes on my son's Passat, and I have pads and rotors coming in to go on my BMW.  I can do this.   In talking to my step son - who worked for a time as a tech at a regional BMW around here - working on cars is his joy, with an intangible portion.   Two mechanics can work on the same car and come out in (mildly) different places (this is why auto racing is what it is).   But the few times he worked on the electric cars, it was like science class.   

Not a reason to hold back technology, to be sure, but it's something that I think someone somewhere will address at some point in time ("an electric car with the feel and serviceability of a gas-powered car!").

Oh, and the sound thing... I almost got hit by a dude in an electric car in Philly, because it made literally zero sound.   Sure, it might be cool, and sure I will no doubt get used to it, but it's a process like anything else.

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #726 on: April 26, 2019, 02:45:39 PM »
Repping the Elon is a fraud side...

Tesla is... fine, I guess, but he takes a lot of undue credit for it, Trump style. There appears to be an aura of suspicion around its business practices and I doubt it'll be solvent in a couple years. SpaceX is... fine, I guess. Pretty much everything else he does is some combination of asinine, impossible, and detracts from actual solutions.

Case-in-point is the Loop. He wants to "fix traffic" by building super high-speed tunnels under cities, accessed via elevator? Yeah, there are a great many reasons that's not gonna work.

The Hyperloop is absolute fantasy. Any time and money devoted to it should be reallocated to real trains.

Speaking of trains, whether everyone is hauling around two tons of metal and gasoline or two tons of metal and lithium, way, WAY too many resources are consumed in automobile-based transit.

In terms of why the "Elon is a fraud" guys are such crass assholes about it... we got sick of the sheer volume of nerds fellating him online. A couple decades from now, he will have achieved nothing substantial for the betterment of humanity. Well-informed pieces have been composed about how his stupid ideas are a waste of time and money, only to be inundated with extremely defensive nerds throwing a temper tantrum because he's beyond criticism or something.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #727 on: April 26, 2019, 06:38:08 PM »
Repping the Elon is a fraud side...

Tesla is... fine, I guess, but he takes a lot of undue credit for it, Trump style. There appears to be an aura of suspicion around its business practices and I doubt it'll be solvent in a couple years. SpaceX is... fine, I guess. Pretty much everything else he does is some combination of asinine, impossible, and detracts from actual solutions.

Case-in-point is the Loop. He wants to "fix traffic" by building super high-speed tunnels under cities, accessed via elevator? Yeah, there are a great many reasons that's not gonna work.

The Hyperloop is absolute fantasy. Any time and money devoted to it should be reallocated to real trains.

Speaking of trains, whether everyone is hauling around two tons of metal and gasoline or two tons of metal and lithium, way, WAY too many resources are consumed in automobile-based transit.

In terms of why the "Elon is a fraud" guys are such crass assholes about it... we got sick of the sheer volume of nerds fellating him online. A couple decades from now, he will have achieved nothing substantial for the betterment of humanity. Well-informed pieces have been composed about how his stupid ideas are a waste of time and money, only to be inundated with extremely defensive nerds throwing a temper tantrum because he's beyond criticism or something.

I mean, if this type of post is par for the course I'd understand why a sheer volume of nerds would be upset.

Whether or not you like Tesla or Space X their success can not be understated. Tesla took on a new type of car, made it work, and then made it to the masses, becoming the most successful American car company in what, 75+ years? Valuation at one point was above GM and Ford. Space X is the best and most exciting private space enterprise ever. I'll agree that the rest of his companies definitely leave things to be desired, but you're allowed a few pipe dreams when you've already done the impossible twice.

The line about metal and lithium is just silly. The Tesla semi and trucks like it, along with the electric vehicles already here, backed by a future in renewable energy could absolutely transform how clean and otherwise dirty transit system can be. Could it be better, always, but that's not a reason not to progress forward with such a great step.

And I agree that his online following can be a little tiresome, but again, unlike Trump he's earned a fair share of it. Like it or not he's done more to move humanity forward than you or I or probably anyone any of us know will ever do. As long as his faults end at crass asshole, twitter idiot at times, and herder of sheep as opposed to finding out he's got the world's largest collection of kiddy porn or beats every women he's with I'm quite fine with the praise he gets.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #728 on: April 27, 2019, 10:00:31 AM »
Personally I have two issues with Teslas. Not knowing anything about how they are designed, they feel like they are made to be more a cool piece of technology instead of a cool car. That's of course, just my opinion. The technology should be an augmentation to the experience of driving, and not the main attraction. Eventually, it's likely that cars will become like washing machines or basic appliances. Sure, they may look okay on the outside, and they do their job well on a consistent basis, but let's face it, no one really gets excited to take their washer for a spin. Especially when self-driving becomes even more prevalent and the experience of driving is removed completely.


Have you ever gone for a ride in one? I did a 0-90 launch in a P100D and it was the most exhilarating thing I've ever experienced in a car, and that includes the time I went down a dragstrip in an 850HP Chevy Monza.

When I had my Model S P85D loaner I took several people (car guys among them) for short spins and there was a lot of "holy fuck" moments. That's what sets these cars apart especially from other electric cars. They aren't just logical, tech heavy, and clean. They are great cars to drive.
Yeah, I don't doubt that for a second. At the same time there's definitely some validity to FP's point. It's just not something that's limited to Teslas. All cars are becoming more and more technological, and in doing so they're becoming more and more separated from the driving experience. I'm pretty confident that 0-60 in 3 seconds in a Teslas is a hoot. My guess is that rather than starting the car, putting in Go, and stomping on the pedal you actually have to run down a checklist, setting this and activating that. And even then you're still at the behest of the car as to whether or not you're allowed to do it. This is no different than the M3s that started this discussion. Honestly, despite being years away from fully autonomous cars, we as drivers are being increasingly relegated to passengers. Again, I'm a dinosaur, but I think this is a shame. Rush should get back together and write a song about a futuristic kid who finds his uncle's vintage Model 3, spends 10 minutes trying to figure out how to start the thing, before finally being told he's not allowed to drive it as it's no longer legal in his particular territory.

But that last part has some truth.  Forget about the fuel source, but there's a beauty, a simplicity to an IC engine.   Just last night, I went to NAPA and bought pads, rotors, and a caliper to do brakes on my son's Passat, and I have pads and rotors coming in to go on my BMW.  I can do this.   In talking to my step son - who worked for a time as a tech at a regional BMW around here - working on cars is his joy, with an intangible portion.   Two mechanics can work on the same car and come out in (mildly) different places (this is why auto racing is what it is).   But the few times he worked on the electric cars, it was like science class.   

Not a reason to hold back technology, to be sure, but it's something that I think someone somewhere will address at some point in time ("an electric car with the feel and serviceability of a gas-powered car!").

Oh, and the sound thing... I almost got hit by a dude in an electric car in Philly, because it made literally zero sound.   Sure, it might be cool, and sure I will no doubt get used to it, but it's a process like anything else.

I honestly am so amused (even if I understand the reaction) that people will still prefer gas cars essentially because there are more things that can easily break or be upgraded, as opposed to just working simply and optimally from the start.

Couple of points. There is nothing simply about an ICE, quite the contrary when compared to a motor. Brakes and rotors have nothing to do with an ICE, and you'll certainly find both on an electric vehicle and could theoretically change them, even though you'd most likely never have to over the life of the vehicle. Sure, on the engine you can change an air filter or spark plugs, but past that there are dozens or more of complicated, difficult, and costly fixes that can happen. Anyone who says there is simplicity to an engine has never had to remove it and fix a cracked piston. If anything the beauty of the ICE is how well we have refined it to work in spite of, or by the addition of its complexity. Like the human body you have the engine as the muscles of the car that make it move, but it needs oil to work, gas to feed it, air to cool it, and all those systems are woven into it.

An electric car can get complicated, especially with Tesla, but the basic drive train at its core is surely a simpler and easier concept, which is where I find its beauty. Onto the complex side of the electric equation, that's why it'll take gearheads and the equivalent a long time to accept them. The easy stuff is so well refined that there is nothing to do on that front, but the hard stuff is so far out of their wheel house that they don't want to learn it. It's not that these vehicles can't be tinkered with, it's that the people who have generations of knowledge on ICE cars don't have the tools to modify this new type of vehicle. And as is typical they hate what they don't understand. Electricians and hackers could have a field day messing around with the systems in an electric vehicle, but it's a whole different subset of people than your traditional car guys. And just like no one likes to have to re-train for a new career, no one deeply invested into ICE is going to want to come up to speed on electric vehicles. They will slowly die off over time as the new wave adopts the new technology. I don't say that in a detrimental or negative way, but simply how I see the change happening.

And as for the sound thing, as long as even normal hybrids have been around that's been talked about. I can't remember if it was a congressional thing or an agency thing, but there was a push to force EVs/Hybrids to emit an artificial sound under a certain speed, but I don't recall what happened with that.

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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #729 on: April 27, 2019, 11:16:46 AM »
Personally I have two issues with Teslas. Not knowing anything about how they are designed, they feel like they are made to be more a cool piece of technology instead of a cool car. That's of course, just my opinion. The technology should be an augmentation to the experience of driving, and not the main attraction. Eventually, it's likely that cars will become like washing machines or basic appliances. Sure, they may look okay on the outside, and they do their job well on a consistent basis, but let's face it, no one really gets excited to take their washer for a spin. Especially when self-driving becomes even more prevalent and the experience of driving is removed completely.


Have you ever gone for a ride in one? I did a 0-90 launch in a P100D and it was the most exhilarating thing I've ever experienced in a car, and that includes the time I went down a dragstrip in an 850HP Chevy Monza.

When I had my Model S P85D loaner I took several people (car guys among them) for short spins and there was a lot of "holy fuck" moments. That's what sets these cars apart especially from other electric cars. They aren't just logical, tech heavy, and clean. They are great cars to drive.
Yeah, I don't doubt that for a second. At the same time there's definitely some validity to FP's point. It's just not something that's limited to Teslas. All cars are becoming more and more technological, and in doing so they're becoming more and more separated from the driving experience. I'm pretty confident that 0-60 in 3 seconds in a Teslas is a hoot. My guess is that rather than starting the car, putting in Go, and stomping on the pedal you actually have to run down a checklist, setting this and activating that. And even then you're still at the behest of the car as to whether or not you're allowed to do it. This is no different than the M3s that started this discussion. Honestly, despite being years away from fully autonomous cars, we as drivers are being increasingly relegated to passengers. Again, I'm a dinosaur, but I think this is a shame. Rush should get back together and write a song about a futuristic kid who finds his uncle's vintage Model 3, spends 10 minutes trying to figure out how to start the thing, before finally being told he's not allowed to drive it as it's no longer legal in his particular territory.

But that last part has some truth.  Forget about the fuel source, but there's a beauty, a simplicity to an IC engine.   Just last night, I went to NAPA and bought pads, rotors, and a caliper to do brakes on my son's Passat, and I have pads and rotors coming in to go on my BMW.  I can do this.   In talking to my step son - who worked for a time as a tech at a regional BMW around here - working on cars is his joy, with an intangible portion.   Two mechanics can work on the same car and come out in (mildly) different places (this is why auto racing is what it is).   But the few times he worked on the electric cars, it was like science class.   

Not a reason to hold back technology, to be sure, but it's something that I think someone somewhere will address at some point in time ("an electric car with the feel and serviceability of a gas-powered car!").

Oh, and the sound thing... I almost got hit by a dude in an electric car in Philly, because it made literally zero sound.   Sure, it might be cool, and sure I will no doubt get used to it, but it's a process like anything else.

I honestly am so amused (even if I understand the reaction) that people will still prefer gas cars essentially because there are more things that can easily break or be upgraded, as opposed to just working simply and optimally from the start.

Couple of points. There is nothing simply about an ICE, quite the contrary when compared to a motor. Brakes and rotors have nothing to do with an ICE, and you'll certainly find both on an electric vehicle and could theoretically change them, even though you'd most likely never have to over the life of the vehicle. Sure, on the engine you can change an air filter or spark plugs, but past that there are dozens or more of complicated, difficult, and costly fixes that can happen. Anyone who says there is simplicity to an engine has never had to remove it and fix a cracked piston. If anything the beauty of the ICE is how well we have refined it to work in spite of, or by the addition of its complexity. Like the human body you have the engine as the muscles of the car that make it move, but it needs oil to work, gas to feed it, air to cool it, and all those systems are woven into it.

An electric car can get complicated, especially with Tesla, but the basic drive train at its core is surely a simpler and easier concept, which is where I find its beauty. Onto the complex side of the electric equation, that's why it'll take gearheads and the equivalent a long time to accept them. The easy stuff is so well refined that there is nothing to do on that front, but the hard stuff is so far out of their wheel house that they don't want to learn it. It's not that these vehicles can't be tinkered with, it's that the people who have generations of knowledge on ICE cars don't have the tools to modify this new type of vehicle. And as is typical they hate what they don't understand. Electricians and hackers could have a field day messing around with the systems in an electric vehicle, but it's a whole different subset of people than your traditional car guys. And just like no one likes to have to re-train for a new career, no one deeply invested into ICE is going to want to come up to speed on electric vehicles. They will slowly die off over time as the new wave adopts the new technology. I don't say that in a detrimental or negative way, but simply how I see the change happening.

And as for the sound thing, as long as even normal hybrids have been around that's been talked about. I can't remember if it was a congressional thing or an agency thing, but there was a push to force EVs/Hybrids to emit an artificial sound under a certain speed, but I don't recall what happened with that.
I'm largely on your side here, so this isn't me arguing with you. Aside from the batteries I see no reason that a Tesla won't be like any other car insofar as maintenance goes. I haven't had to worry about engine problems for 20+ years as all of mine have been bullet proof. It's the secondary stuff that you worry about and the Tesla will be no difference. You did hint at one of the drawbacks of it, though. Everything that makes a Tesla go will be proprietary, so if mechanics are even allowed to own the tools it'll likely be cost prohibitive. They guys who work on my BMW operate their shop just as a means to finance their racing addiction. There are several such shops in DFW. I had the same setup with my RX7. They'll repair the stuff that goes wrong for a fraction of the price of taking it to a dealer, and that won't be the case with a modern Tesla. That's actually where I see the Apple comparison. If my transmission goes up in smoke my shop will pull one from one of their donor cars and have me back on the road fro a tiny fraction of the $6k BMW would charge. Doubt that'll be an option with a Tesla and one of those high-tech CVTs. Anybody can do the brakes on my car. I did mine 3 weeks ago. That doesn't seem to be the case with Tesla's, and despite Elon's claims there is no such thing as lifetime pads and rotors. Seems the dealer wants ~$1500 or so for a brake job.

So while I agree with you that in many ways the Tesla will be lower maintenance (ICE cooling will likely be the biggest difference), there will still be much of the same maintenance problems that you'll have to pay a lot more to get taken care of.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #730 on: April 27, 2019, 11:38:11 AM »
I am totally with you on service/apple comparison when it comes to Tesla, and again was my biggest fear going into the car, but that's a knock on Tesla and not EVs as a whole I feel. As for the brakes I'm going to have to disagree a bit. There are lots Model S owners with 200k and 300k miles who have never had to change their brake pads.

Hell, my last car was a plug in hybrid with mild regenerative braking and even so after 40k+ in the final inspection right before transferring it my brakes had minimal wear.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #731 on: April 27, 2019, 12:59:48 PM »
I am totally with you on service/apple comparison when it comes to Tesla, and again was my biggest fear going into the car, but that's a knock on Tesla and not EVs as a whole I feel. As for the brakes I'm going to have to disagree a bit. There are lots Model S owners with 200k and 300k miles who have never had to change their brake pads.

Hell, my last car was a plug in hybrid with mild regenerative braking and even so after 40k+ in the final inspection right before transferring it my brakes had minimal wear.
I wouldn't be as concerned about the brake pads as the rotors. Rotors warp. I still had a fair amount of pad left 3 weeks ago, but replaced it all because I couldn't tolerate the shimmy anymore. It'll be largely dependent on how aggressively you drive, but there are plenty of ways to quickly warp a rotor, and I see plenty of reports of that happening with Tesla owners.

Having said that, the fact that the brakes are used so sparingly really is a big plus for that car. That's one of the things I miss about driving a stick.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #732 on: April 28, 2019, 07:20:54 PM »
Like I said, I'm not adverse to EVs. I want a Golf EV; it's just that I'd like to drive a stick while I still can, I park on a road (parents get dibs on driveway obv, detached garage is exclusively for dad's tools and bikes and such), and I don't know what my long term plans for college are. Driving 367 miles to/from my old school 4+ times per year would not have been fun in an 80 mile range vehicle. The school which I would really like to attend down the line is a thousand miles away from my home.

Anyway, current vehicle is a 2000 Grand Marqius. Sure, the car, outside of the pristine ashtray, was full of cigarette ash and large burn holes in the upholstery, and every surface was coated in tar. But for a thousand bucks, a bulletproof engine (outside of its shite intake manifold which will surely implode in the next couple years) and <27k miles, I really couldn't complain. 2.5 years later, up to about 48k, and most of the tobacco remnants are gone. (No comment on other kinds of smoke damage.)

Now, I have every right to complain about the bald spots I caused on the front tires last summer, and how it makes the car shake, but that's my fault for putting off tire replacement until I can afford a set of alloys, a set of summers, and a set of winters. You may think that's overkill, but I will probably be attending school in Rochester for at least a semester, and trust me, they're necessary up there. That's doubly so if the original buyer of your car decided not splurge on ABS or traction control. Honestly I'll replace them (+whatever I rattled loose in the suspension in the meantime) once I have a somewhat consistent source of income again.

I'd also like to figure out how to minimize these dents, mainly the one on the door:



My dad thinks I should seek out one of those mobile dent pullers, that they'll be able to get it pretty tolerable for under a hundred bucks. I tried the suction thing; no dice.

Yes, that is an early nineties Tercel with a racing stripe in the background. My neighbor did that to his grandma's car when he was like fifteen. The stories I could tell about that kid...
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #733 on: April 28, 2019, 07:51:12 PM »
Just pop the inside door panel off and push the dent out. You'll find a hundred different DIY writeups how to do it and it'll take less than an hour. While you're in there be sure and lube the window regulator.
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Re: Anything related to automobiles
« Reply #734 on: April 28, 2019, 07:56:39 PM »
Thought about doing that too. As you can see, by my shirt above, even the simplest DIY jobs I do tend to go horribly wrong. Why are my speakers buzzing? Why are $50 JVC headunits absolute trash? Why is my driveway horribly stained? Where are my hubcap bolts? Where did that screw come from?
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"