Religion Getting in the Way of Relationships

[Implode]

(or my first Andy thread)

So I've just fallen into this situation in which this girl has acknowledged that I've been flirting her. She has said that the main thing that would keep us from dating would be the fact that she's Christian and I'm an agnostic atheist. I'm not quite sure how to respond. I can already predict the response from many people here: "Dude, if that's so important to her just get over it and realize that she's not for you."

But at the same time this has brought up some other doubts I've had in my mind. I was raised Catholic, and for the most part I never had a problem with that. It's only recently that I've gone away from being religious. Right now my views are that I can't really find a reason to believe in God. I have nothing against religion, but there are few small things I disagree with. However, those small disagreements are what cause me to question everything about religion.

Let's take gay marriage for example. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Obviously the Catholic church does. Now I could just be a Christian while ignoring those views on gay marriage like so many others, but then I get to thinking, what's the point of ascribing to a set of beliefs when you are just going to believe what you want anyway? So then what's the point of me trying to better my relationship with God when I don't like everything he supposedly teaches, or at least according to a specific group of people. That's about how I came to where I am now.

So in short I'm asking, how should I respond to that girl? And do you guys have any advice on whether my logic on religion is faulty or I'm just fine in my way of think?

[yeshaberto]

the only distinction I would point out is that God does not desire for us to follow the convictions of any church (unless coincidentally it is right).  we are to "study to show yourself approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling correctly the Word of God" (Paul in a letter to Timothy).  we will be held accountable by the creator for our convictions rather than others convictions.

[Adami]

It can be a pain. I fell for a JW realllllly hard. But because I wasn't a JW, we weren't allowed to be together.

[rumborak]

Yeah, same here. Reeeallly liked a Jewish girl a few years back, but had no chance because, quote from a friend, "she's looking for a nice Jewish boy".

rumborak

[Adami]

Yeah, same here. Reeeallly liked a Jewish girl a few years back, but had no chance because, quote from a friend, "she's looking for a nice Jewish boy".

rumborak

Wish I had that problem. Never found a nice Jewish girl I had any interest in.

[Implode]

So I guess on the relationship front it comes down to us just not being right for each other then.

We are not a match. 

[Adami]

So I guess on the relationship front it comes down to us just not being right for each other then.

We are not a match. 

Believe me I feel your pain. I am actually in the middle of a major depression because the situation I mentioned.

[jammindude]

It can be a pain. I fell for a JW realllllly hard. But because I wasn't a JW, we weren't allowed to be together.

It doesn't really work like that.   But we might be talking semantics.

There is a scripture that says "do not become unevenly yoked with an unbeliever".   Now, if you're not religious (or otherwise don't believe in the Bible) then you are free to believe whatever you wish.   But anyone who respects the Bible and uses it as a guide for their lives is going to take this scripture into account when looking for a mate.

[snapple]

Yeah, same here. Reeeallly liked a Jewish girl a few years back, but had no chance because, quote from a friend, "she's looking for a nice Jewish boy".

rumborak

You mean her mom wanted her to find a nice Jewish boy?

@the OP

Just talk to her about it. If she's hot, I'd say you should try going back to church   

[jammindude]

Just to add to what I said to Adami....

I promise you.   I've been around the faith my whole life (rebelled *hard core* between the ages of 13 and 23...but some deep soul searching and outside study brought me back) and in all that time, I've never heard of anyone not being "allowed" to do anything.   There have been times that I *WISH* the elders would tell me what I should do...and they won't.   The mantra (for lack of a better term) is "we can't tell you what to do, we can only show you what the scriptures say...you have to make your own choice."   Heard it so many times it's maddening. 

Now...if a child is living at home...the parents *CAN* (and often do) say what a child can and cannot do.  But I don't know all the details of the situation.  (how old were you at the time?  Did you meet at school?  Was she living at home? etc...etc...etc)

[Super Dude]

Yeah, same here. Reeeallly liked a Jewish girl a few years back, but had no chance because, quote from a friend, "she's looking for a nice Jewish boy".

rumborak

You mean her mom wanted her to find a nice Jewish boy?

Not necessarily.

Since a really bad experience in high school, I'd always been seeking a nice Jewish girl, and luckily I found one.

[yeshaberto]

It can be a pain. I fell for a JW realllllly hard. But because I wasn't a JW, we weren't allowed to be together.

There is a scripture that says "do not become unevenly yoked with an unbeliever".   Now, if you're not religious (or otherwise don't believe in the Bible) then you are free to believe whatever you wish.   But anyone who respects the Bible and uses it as a guide for their lives is going to take this scripture into account when looking for a mate.

definitely this!

also, though, from just a purely practical angle - as critical and emotional as religion can be in a persons life, it could create endless strife to not be on the same page on something that central.

of course, some of you I would still marry 

[Adami]

It can be a pain. I fell for a JW realllllly hard. But because I wasn't a JW, we weren't allowed to be together.

It doesn't really work like that.   But we might be talking semantics.

There is a scripture that says "do not become unevenly yoked with an unbeliever".   Now, if you're not religious (or otherwise don't believe in the Bible) then you are free to believe whatever you wish.   But anyone who respects the Bible and uses it as a guide for their lives is going to take this scripture into account when looking for a mate.

First, did you just disagree with me and then support what I said with scripture?


Also, I don't care about what the religion says on the matter, I'm just telling you what happened. We are not together, for the sole reason that I am not a JW. Now this was not her choice as she was willing to look past it. However her family and community essentially would have disowned her. Now, once again I'm just telling you what happened and not making any judgments on the belief system. So if this isn't a normal JW thing, I don't care, cause I'm not trying to say it is.

[jammindude]

I was only trying to clarify....

Neither I, nor anyone I've ever known (including several who are no longer JW's for *exactly* this reason) were ever told, "no...you're not allowed"...or, "you can't do that...it is forbidden."  or you can come up with your own words.   It just does not happen.   

As I said, it might just be semantics...but I know that there are alot of people out there who are under the misconception that "you have to do what your religion tells you to"...or, "you have to do what the elders say"...or some other such nonsense.   And it is just that....nonsense. 

I can do whatever I want.   I choose to follow scripture.   

[Adami]

It just does not happen.   

It happened.

[hefdaddy42]

Neither I, nor anyone I've ever known (including several who are no longer JW's for *exactly* this reason) were ever told, "no...you're not allowed"...or, "you can't do that...it is forbidden."  or you can come up with your own words.   It just does not happen.   

If it doesn't happen, then what is "exactly this reason" that they are no longer JWs?  Your post is confusing.

[jammindude]

Neither I, nor anyone I've ever known (including several who are no longer JW's for *exactly* this reason) were ever told, "no...you're not allowed"...or, "you can't do that...it is forbidden."  or you can come up with your own words.   It just does not happen.   

If it doesn't happen, then what is "exactly this reason" that they are no longer JWs?  Your post is confusing.

They had a choice....they made a choice. 

Heck, I was once disfellowshipped because I had the same choice in front of me, and I chose differently.  Turned out that it was a mistake...  but no one *ever* told me "you can't do that" or "you're not allowed".

Adami and I sorted this out in PM.  (we actually believe the same thing, I just object to the wording of "not allowed")  I think he and I *are* on the same page.  I'm just a very fierce individualist, and strongly object to the insinuation that anyone has ever told me (or anyone else) what I can and cannot do.   It's never happened to me, it's never happened to anyone I know.   No one ever said, "you can't do that".   As a matter of fact, I was told exactly the opposite.   I was told, "we *CANNOT* tell you what to do"...   

   

[Chino]

My girlfriend's parents are hardcore into religion, my girlfriend is no where near as bad. Whenever I am there, they always bring god and his ways up. I'm dreading the day they actually expect me to contribute to the discussion.

[hefdaddy42]

Neither I, nor anyone I've ever known (including several who are no longer JW's for *exactly* this reason) were ever told, "no...you're not allowed"...or, "you can't do that...it is forbidden."  or you can come up with your own words.   It just does not happen.   

If it doesn't happen, then what is "exactly this reason" that they are no longer JWs?  Your post is confusing.

They had a choice....they made a choice. 
 

That is still confusing.  If they weren't told what to do (or what they couldn't do), what was the reason for a choice?

[jammindude]

Neither I, nor anyone I've ever known (including several who are no longer JW's for *exactly* this reason) were ever told, "no...you're not allowed"...or, "you can't do that...it is forbidden."  or you can come up with your own words.   It just does not happen.   

If it doesn't happen, then what is "exactly this reason" that they are no longer JWs?  Your post is confusing.

They had a choice....they made a choice. 
 

That is still confusing.  If they weren't told what to do (or what they couldn't do), what was the reason for a choice?

I know it's just a matter of miscommunication...but I'm honestly not sure I understand the question. 

Maybe the background is lacking?     You have to understand that one *cannot* just walk in and say "I want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses"...and boom, you get baptized.   Every one who gets baptized has made an educated decision...gone through 3 hours of Bible questions to make sure they they know exactly what they are doing...and then makes a public declaration that they agree to live by Bible standards.     So when someone does something against Bible standards...they sit down and talk with the elders.  The idea is to try to figure out what happened, why it happened, and if there is anything that can be done to bring them back to adhering to Bible standards.    But if someone has an attitude of, "Ya, I know what the Bible says...and I didn't want to do it that way, so I did it my own way."   Well...that's a choice.  The same as getting baptized was a choice.   The elders don't forbid anyone from doing anything...neither do they "CAST OUT YON HEATHEN!"...they simply have a responsibility to God's Word and the congregation as a whole, to "set aside" someone who has *made the decision* that they no longer wish to follow Bible standards.    If that person changes their mind (some do, some don't) they can come back....but they have to prove by their actions that they wish to do so.   Their life course has to show that they have changed their attitude from what they were previously doing.   

[hefdaddy42]

Well, that just affirms what Adami was saying, so now I have no idea what you are denying.

[jammindude]

Well, that just affirms what Adami was saying, so now I have no idea what you are denying.

    

I guess I just don't know how to explain it...

To me, "not allowed" makes it sound like some other person is telling you what you can and cannot do.    I don't know anyone who has ever had anyone tell them what they can and cannot do.    I'm allowed to do anything I want.   I'm allowed to leave.   I'm allowed stay.   Hypothetically...I'M ALLOWED to cheat on my wife...and no one will tell me I "can't do that" if I'm bound and determined to do so.   But I would be removed from the congregation if I did.   That doesn't mean I'm not allowed.  It just means I made a choice that what I wanted to do was more important than my dedication to God and my public vow to maintain his standards.   No one is going to chain me to the floor.   No one is going to tell me "No!  You can't do that! You're NOT ALLOWED!"   

Like I said, I'm a very fierce individualist. 

“I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My life is my own.”  - Number 6 (The Prisoner)

It might just be that I'm hung up on the word "allowed" which (to me) is implying the control of others not yourself.   I disagree with that insinuation.   But if I have a wrong definition of "allowed" then we're just sidetracked...and I apologize if that is the case. 

[bosk1]

What it boils down to is that in those situations, you are presented with a choice:  (1) don't do X, or (2) do X, and forfeit your relationship with the congregation.  And that's fine.  I'm not casting judgment on that (in fact, I think it is entirely appropriate).  But that IS in fact being disallowed to do something.  No, nobody is chaining you down.  But to phrase the choice differently, it is, "you are not allowed to choose to do X if you want to remain part of the congregation." 

To give another example, I am not going to come to your house and chain you down to stop you from posting porn on this website. You have complete free will to do so if you choose, and nobody has the ability to stop you (unless you announce what you are going to do ahead of time, in which case you would be preemptively banned).  But it should be perfectly clear that you are not allowed to do so, because if you do, you will forfeit your membership here.  I cannot stop you from exercising your free will to transgress the rules in that regard.  But it is clear that there are consequences if you choose to transgress, so you ARE in fact disallowed from posting porn.

Free will and being disallowed from doing something are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think they are. 

[hefdaddy42]

You are not allowed by the group to engage in certain activities if you wish to remain part of the group.  That is the correct usage of the term.  Which is exactly what Adami was saying happened in his experience.

[jammindude]

Ok then....I agree with everything everyone just said.   I make a full retraction and sincere apology.    I didn't meant to cause trouble.    The problem is completely with me and my hypersensitivity to insinuations of "control" (which gets thrown around as an accusation *ALOT*...but goes against everything I hold dear)

I am sorry.

[bosk1]

Well, just as long as you give up your scheme of posting porn here, I forgive you. 

Wait...

[SeRoX]

Just wanna know.

If you are a Jewish and getting married with someone not Jewish, it means you are anathematized and never be Jewish again even you would divorce?

For the muslims, you can marry everyone who is not muslim but there is one condition. He/She must be muslim before getting married.

AFAIK, there is no hard things in christianity. Of course it can differs sect to sect.

I mean, religion is the the most personal matter, at least it MUST be but someone and something decides everything instead of us. Weird.

[Odysseus]

As far as the OP goes it would seem that you are prepared to accept her for who she is but she is not prepared to accept you the way you are.  Doesn't really sound like a good match.  Where does it end?

A friend of mine met a JW girl, became a JW on the strength of that, got married and had the kid, wifey got weirder and more controlling - they got divorced, she kept the kid from him until kid came of age and moved in with my mate and his new wife and kid.  It was messy for a while.

Nobody can make your mind up for you, only you can make that decision.  Only you know how you feel.

[kirksnosehair]

A long time ago, long before I ever met my first wife, I started seeing this girl who was an "every-Sunday-in-the-pew" church girl.  She went to a Pentecostal Church and she kept pressuring me and pressuring me to "just come see what it's all about" under the assumption that our relationship was going to remain stalled (meaning no sex) unless I was willing to become a member of her church.

On the hunch that maybe if I went to a service or two that she might soften her stance a bit, I went to a service with her one Sunday.

I saw the whole "speaking in tongues" thing and that was pretty much the end of that relationship as far as I was concerned. 

I think it's a very, very bad idea to compromise your core beliefs for ANY reason, but especially because you want to have a relationship with someone. 

[jammindude]

A long time ago, long before I ever met my first wife, I started seeing this girl who was an "every-Sunday-in-the-pew" church girl.  She went to a Pentecostal Church and she kept pressuring me and pressuring me to "just come see what it's all about" under the assumption that our relationship was going to remain stalled (meaning no sex) unless I was willing to become a member of her church.

On the hunch that maybe if I went to a service or two that she might soften her stance a bit, I went to a service with her one Sunday.

I saw the whole "speaking in tongues" thing and that was pretty much the end of that relationship as far as I was concerned. 

I think it's a very, very bad idea to compromise your core beliefs for ANY reason, but especially because you want to have a relationship with someone.

 

Kirk...I absolutely love you...perfect post right there.

[hefdaddy42]

I agree.  You have to be true to who and what you are.  If someone you think you like is being true to who and what they are, and it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than you, then



well, hell, you are not a match.

[PraXis]

Religion got in the way of a relationship of mine a few years ago. I dated an Indian girl and her family loved me when they thought I was just a friend (I was friends with her brother for years). We dated about 8 months, but then her father stepped in after he found out about it. Her mom didn't mind that I was white and from a Catholic family (she was a total MILF too), but the father wanted his daughter to marry "her own" were his words. She didn't have an arranged marriage or anything like that, and she wasn't religious, but didn't want to deal with the constant drama from her father. What sucks is we were starting to get more serious. :/

[jammindude]

Even if both of the actual involved parties want it to work....the in-laws being against it can put a *HUGE* strain on the relationship.   Even under the best of circumstances, it *will* cause issues.    The only way it won't is if neither person wants anything to do with the problem in-laws...and never changes their mind either.   But that is pretty rare. 

But so many people end up in marriages that don't work just because when they are starting out, they think love can overcome all these problems.  (different religion, different culture, different background, "I hate your music", "Your in-laws hate me"...etc...etc).   But when the honeymoon wears off...the problems become issues...issues become a source of contention....and so on. 

All relationships take work...but a lifelong commitment like marriage is *SO MUCH* work, that you need to have as few problems as possible to start....trust me, you will find more along the way.   So starting from a foundation of *completely* different value systems (i.e. "I believe in God and you don't") is a really...REALLY bad idea.

[millahh]

A slight tangeant, but I'll just add in that people should be careful when getting involved with someone who was raised by fundamentalists, even if they have moved away from it themselves.  Not so much because of present-tense family pressures, but because there will be more landmines than you can ever imagine...especially when the fundamentalism involved physical, emotional and spiritual abuse of kids (i.e the parents kept James Dobson and Micahael Perl boks in the house).

You tend to get a new perspective on religion and relationships when you are holding your spouse while they sob, rocking back and forth saying "I don't want to go to hell" over and over again at the prospect of discussing their upbringing with a therapist.

I'm not saying that you should cut and run when someone has this background, but know what you're getting into.  Just because someone has left a strict religious upbringing doesn't mean it has left them.

[comment]

(or my first Andy thread)

So I've just fallen into this situation in which this girl has acknowledged that I've been flirting her. She has said that the main thing that would keep us from dating would be the fact that she's Christian and I'm an agnostic atheist. I'm not quite sure how to respond. I can already predict the response from many people here: "Dude, if that's so important to her just get over it and realize that she's not for you."

But at the same time this has brought up some other doubts I've had in my mind. I was raised Catholic, and for the most part I never had a problem with that. It's only recently that I've gone away from being religious. Right now my views are that I can't really find a reason to believe in God. I have nothing against religion, but there are few small things I disagree with. However, those small disagreements are what cause me to question everything about religion.

Let's take gay marriage for example. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Obviously the Catholic church does. Now I could just be a Christian while ignoring those views on gay marriage like so many others, but then I get to thinking, what's the point of ascribing to a set of beliefs when you are just going to believe what you want anyway? So then what's the point of me trying to better my relationship with God when I don't like everything he supposedly teaches, or at least according to a specific group of people. That's about how I came to where I am now.

So in short I'm asking, how should I respond to that girl? And do you guys have any advice on whether my logic on religion is faulty or I'm just fine in my way of think?

Hey man.  Where you at with all this, after reading all these posts?