"Let me perceive forgiveness as it is"

[AndyDT]

If you sin e.g. viewing porn, lusting over things etc all the while knowing you are removing yourself from God and then say "Jesus please forgive" etc, I find it hard to accept forgiveness as real. The reason being that God, as well as your higher self, knows that you knew full well all the time what you were doing.

So for what do you ask for forgiveness? I was reading A Course in Miracles along with the Bible. ACIM says

Forgiveness is acquired. It is not inherent in the mind, which cannot sin. As sin is an idea you taught yourself, forgiveness must be learned by you as well, but from a Teacher other than yourself, Who represents the other Self in you. Through Him you learn how to forgive the self you think you made, and let it disappear. Thus you return your mind as one to Him Who is your Self, and Who can never sin.

I take this as meaning that sin is a human creation and yuo have to detach from it to see it is not truth, or real and so. on
[https://acim.org/Lessons/lesson.html?lesson=121]

[Chino]

Because if there wasn't forgiveness, there wouldn't be a single person in heaven... You ask for forgiveness because god gave you limited reasoning capabilities.

[bosk1]

Forgiveness comes to the one who is repentant.  I.e. to the one who not only says they are sorry, but is truly convicted of the fact that they committed wrong, and who resolves to change that behavior going forward.  Yes, in practice, where the line is between true repentance and just going through the motions can be incredibly blurry, especially in a situation where one willfully does wrong.  But still, the fact remains that repentance is what is required, and God is faithful to forgive any sin that is truly repented of.

[Vivace]

Sin is human insofar as we have the capacity to chose the evil over the good. But can you really sin if you are unaware of what the evil and the good are in a situtation? For example, take a 4 year old who just hit his sister in the nose because she took his toy. Does the 4 year really understand why his action was wrong? If he doesn't understand that then can we truly can that a sin? Thus you question of, if we sin and know we are sinning why should God even forgive that? Basically in order to ask for forgiveness for a sin we have to know that we chose the evil in the first place over the good. Human beings by nature tend towards the good but there are moments we chose the evil over the good for reasons that are natural to ourselves. We reason ourselves into the decision or perhaps let go of ourselves in the moment and just commit the evil. There are many elements that can bring us to perform the evil over the good, and what's worse is when we take an evil and turn it into a good therefore reasoning to ourselves that it isn't a sin after all.

That passage I find a bit too new-agey. Forgiveness is acquired, yes. Now this idea that the mind doesn't sin is a bit sketchy. The intellect doesn't sin, yes. The intellect doesn't sin because sin requires an act as it is an act against God or self or others. Thus sin is in the will. But this idea that sin is something you taught yourself is invalid. If sin were that, then sin is relative but we know that sin isn't relative as sin is due to internal AND external forces. Sure some people might view certain sins not as sins at all, for example a person doesn't see abortion as a sin, while another does. Besides how do we know we have sinned if are sins are self defined? Why can't I just self define the sin as something good? Forgiveness isn't something learned, it is bestowed. What is learned is something that might help keep you from sinning again. Words from a priest, a parent, a teacher all help bring the sinner back to following the good. Also the idea that forgiveness through God helps us forgive the sin we "think" we have made is again relativistic.

[yeshaberto]

when Jesus Himself was asked how many times can someone sin against me and I forgive him, his reply (in response to the assumed answer of seven times) was seventy times seven.  this was his answer because it is his practice

[AndyDT]

Forgiveness comes to the one who is repentant.  I.e. to the one who not only says they are sorry, but is truly convicted of the fact that they committed wrong, and who resolves to change that behavior going forward.  Yes, in practice, where the line is between true repentance and just going through the motions can be incredibly blurry, especially in a situation where one willfully does wrong.  But still, the fact remains that repentance is what is required, and God is faithful to forgive any sin that is truly repented of.

Then I'd say let go of the sin and say "this isn't the truth which I'm holding against myself" as ACIM seems to suggest. Also, isn't there a case for perfunctory forgiveness seeking to remind yourself that you're predisposed to sin including holding on to it despite forgiveness being available e.g. as in the Lord's Prayer?

[tofee35]

Forgiveness comes to the one who is repentant.  I.e. to the one who not only says they are sorry, but is truly convicted of the fact that they committed wrong, and who resolves to change that behavior going forward.  Yes, in practice, where the line is between true repentance and just going through the motions can be incredibly blurry, especially in a situation where one willfully does wrong.  But still, the fact remains that repentance is what is required, and God is faithful to forgive any sin that is truly repented of.

... and I'll add to that. God knows we're incapable of being perfect. Temptation is a huge part of that imperfection. We're all dirty dogs. As Bosk said, though, as long as you truly repent and strive to better this behavior, that's what matters. Also, it doesn't help shrugging repentance off like starting a diet and saying, "I'll start tomorrow". I think it tries God's patience. God is definitely a patient one, so there is time to repent wholeheartedly. But, it's better to do it sooner than later. I think everybody knows inside when a time of repentance for themselves is.

[rumborak]

I find it rather bewildering to slap such anthropologic qualities as "patience" on the timeless Creator of the universe. But, carry on.

rumborak

[Zook]

Is viewing porn really a sin? Come on now.

[tofee35]

I find it rather bewildering to slap such anthropologic qualities as "patience" on the timeless Creator of the universe. But, carry on.

rumborak

I get what you're saying. I think it's more in terms of our timeline and perception of patience. If I'm on Earth for 75 years, then that is my judgement period. That's the time when God's patience for me is tested. So the timelessness of God doesn't have to do with my physical time on Earth.

Honestly, I could be totally off, but that's what I believe. You raise a good question.

[theseoafs]

Is viewing porn really a sin? Come on now.

Unquestionably (under the Christian doctrine).

[Ben_Jamin]

Is viewing porn really a sin? Come on now.

Sodom and Gomorrah

Its better to forgive and pray for your enemies than holding a grudge, because then your mind will be free of worry and anger to continue what you got to do in your life.

[AndyDT]

I mean when the "enemy" is yourself - sin as the Bible calls it.

I think the answer is you've got to ask yourself in complete honesty "do I really want to be doing this?" or "Should I really have done this?" or "Am I a right person?" If the answer is no and congruent to your Christian beliefs then that seems to be good grounds for honest repentance.

[lonestar]

I just want to add my view on this. In my spiritual program, it is not just about forgiveness, but about amending the situation so the damage you caused the other person through your actions is resolved. For example, if by cheating on your girlfriend caused her to not trust men, what action can you take to help her trust men again.

[Ben_Jamin]

I mean when the "enemy" is yourself - sin as the Bible calls it.

I think the answer is you've got to ask yourself in complete honesty "do I really want to be doing this?" or "Should I really have done this?" or "Am I a right person?" If the answer is no and congruent to your Christian beliefs then that seems to be good grounds for honest repentance.

You mean regret?

[Zook]

So because some ancient city from 2000 years ago was practicing gay sex and whoring themselves about, and god didn't like it too much, people in modern times think it's a sin to watch some porn (not all porn is gay porn) when they're horny? Is being horny a sin too?

[theseoafs]

There's nothing intrinsically sinful about pornography, but lust is very much a sin. If you can watch porn without being lustful, more power to you.

[rumborak]

What's wrong with lust?

Or more generally asked, how come a lot of people equate piety with asceticism and self-punishment?

rumborak

[Ben_Jamin]

So because some ancient city from 2000 years ago was practicing gay sex and whoring themselves about, and god didn't like it too much, people in modern times think it's a sin to watch some porn (not all porn is gay porn) when they're horny? Is being horny a sin too?

Some say it wasn't that, but how sinister they treated people.  Plus, back during those times they had more work to do throughout the day than now, how we easily get things.

[yeshaberto]

What's wrong with lust?

Or more generally asked, how come a lot of people equate piety with asceticism and self-punishment?

rumborak

I would make a distinction between desire (which is God-given) and lust (a perversion of that desire).

Your point regarding equating piety with asceticism and self-punishment is warned against a number of times in the new testament.

[theseoafs]

What's wrong with lust?

Or more generally asked, how come a lot of people equate piety with asceticism and self-punishment?

rumborak

I direct you to Matthew 5:27-8. Now, there's debate about how literally we are supposed to take this (I leave the analysis to the people who know more about this than I), but the mere fact that Jesus juxtaposes looking at a woman lustfully and committing adultery, in my view, indicates that lust is something that Christians should take rather seriously.

[tofee35]

What's wrong with lust?

Or more generally asked, how come a lot of people equate piety with asceticism and self-punishment?

rumborak

I direct you to Matthew 5:27-8. Now, there's debate about how literally we are supposed to take this (I leave the analysis to the people who know more about this than I), but the mere fact that Jesus juxtaposes looking at a woman lustfully and committing adultery, in my view, indicates that lust is something that Christians should take rather seriously.

Even if Christianity is taken out of this conversation, the moral standard is still there. All lust gets you is a wet acorn in your own lap. You love somebody. So, why lust over other people? It sets an impossible standard for your significant other. It's not fair to either of you.

I'm as guilty as anybody for not following that logic. But, I feel much better when I do.

[Zook]

Well then lust should only become a sin when you love someone. If you're single and lust over someone, what's the big deal? Is having a crush on someone whether it's a celebrity or co-worker (while in a relationship) considered lustful too, because none of us are innocent in that regard.

[AndyDT]

I mean when the "enemy" is yourself - sin as the Bible calls it.

I think the answer is you've got to ask yourself in complete honesty "do I really want to be doing this?" or "Should I really have done this?" or "Am I a right person?" If the answer is no and congruent to your Christian beliefs then that seems to be good grounds for honest repentance.

You mean regret?

I mean asking for forgiveness from God.

[AndyDT]

There's nothing intrinsically sinful about pornography, but lust is very much a sin. If you can watch porn without being lustful, more power to you.

This is OT but aren't you're registering an interest, even if only by page views, in people indulging or promoting lust? Also, short of totally removing the ego, and according to David R.Hawkins nobody but Jesus Christ did this, I don't think it's possible to watch completely without lust.

[tofee35]

Well then lust should only become a sin when you love someone. If you're single and lust over someone, what's the big deal? Is having a crush on someone whether it's a celebrity or co-worker (while in a relationship) considered lustful too, because none of us are innocent in that regard.

There's a difference between consciously saying to yourself "don't do it!" and actually feeling that it's wrong. Usually if you don't really like or love someone, you won't feel like it's wrong. I think it applies to everybody in a different way.

Of course none of us are innocent. That's why, according to Christianity, Jesus Christ took the our sins unto himself when he died. So, we can acknowledge it and ask for forgiveness.

[comment]

Hey man.  Are you finding the lessons in ACIM valuable for understanding the bible?

[AndyDT]

It's more valuable in trying to understand the God of the Bible than the Bible itself. I haven't even read the main ACIM text. I bought the workbook and manual for teachers not realising that it was separate from the main text. The main text is supposed to be far more understandable and profound.