Author Topic: Trayvon Martin  (Read 47584 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2012, 04:20:06 PM »
  The classes I've taken warn of your gun being used against you. Did Zimmerman put himself in that situation by following Martin? Yes. Did Martin put himself in the situation of ultimately getting shot by beating Martin? Yes. It's a horrible situation.

I completely disagree with this. There's no way for Martin to know Zimmerman had a gun, so he didn't put himself in that situation. But once you do see a gun, what the fuck are you supposed to think? I'm sorry, but any reasonable person is going to feel threatened, and Martin was a young kid with a lot of testosterone. Zimmerman made this situation when he decided to carry a gun, which makes him responsible for the results. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he probably would've gotten his ass kicked, Martin probably would've ran. Maybe would've gotten arrested (police were already on the way anyways), or there'd have been a search for Martin, and maybe he would've gotten arrested then, or maybe he gets away. Either way, no one's dead. It's Zimmerman's gun, it's Zimmerman's actions which provoked the event, and so it's Zimmerman's responsibility for what happened.

That's the positive evidence on the table. All the other details are pertinent to what kind of punishment Zimmerman should receive, but they are not relevant to his guilt.
This is where you and I part company.  Zimmerman made the situation when he gave chase; not by carrying the weapon.  Beyond that, I don't have much of a problem with his possession or use of a weapon.

Agreed.

But eric is correct about Martin's reaction to being followed (the details of which are unclear) putting him at least partly at fault if he indeed chose to confront Zimmerman.  Can't believe people are trying to argue otherwise.

-J

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2012, 05:02:09 PM »
  The classes I've taken warn of your gun being used against you. Did Zimmerman put himself in that situation by following Martin? Yes. Did Martin put himself in the situation of ultimately getting shot by beating Martin? Yes. It's a horrible situation.

I completely disagree with this. There's no way for Martin to know Zimmerman had a gun, so he didn't put himself in that situation. But once you do see a gun, what the fuck are you supposed to think? I'm sorry, but any reasonable person is going to feel threatened, and Martin was a young kid with a lot of testosterone. Zimmerman made this situation when he decided to carry a gun, which makes him responsible for the results. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he probably would've gotten his ass kicked, Martin probably would've ran. Maybe would've gotten arrested (police were already on the way anyways), or there'd have been a search for Martin, and maybe he would've gotten arrested then, or maybe he gets away. Either way, no one's dead. It's Zimmerman's gun, it's Zimmerman's actions which provoked the event, and so it's Zimmerman's responsibility for what happened.

That's the positive evidence on the table. All the other details are pertinent to what kind of punishment Zimmerman should receive, but they are not relevant to his guilt.
This is where you and I part company.  Zimmerman made the situation when he gave chase; not by carrying the weapon.  Beyond that, I don't have much of a problem with his possession or use of a weapon.

Oh, I don't think it makes him a murderer, but his actions and his decisions lead to what happened, in every way. It's one of those possibilities you invite, when you carry a loaded weapon. And I wouldn't say I have a problem with him having the weapon, just that the gun, and what happens to it, is Zimmerman's responsibility.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2012, 05:24:34 PM »
Simply having the gun does not put all the responsibility on Zimmerman.  That is silly.  Given the limited info we have, it is clear that the actions of BOTH parties caused this to happen.  It doesnt get this far without BOTH parties doing very stupid things.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2012, 06:07:20 PM »
Simply having the gun does not put all the responsibility on Zimmerman.  That is silly.  Given the limited info we have, it is clear that the actions of BOTH parties caused this to happen.  It doesnt get this far without BOTH parties doing very stupid things.

Again, I ask you, what would have happened had there been no gun? It's a simple fact that Zimmerman had the gun on him, and it's reasonable to conclude what would have happened had there not been a gun (Zimmerman said he didn't feel threatened until Trayvon went for the gun, which he probably went for becuase he felt threatened).

So again, Zimmerman put himself in the position, himself, whereby he felt threatened, and enough to defend himself. Trayvon did not force that situation, he responded. Was he a player in the course of events? Of course. But he is not the responsible party, and no matter how you try and fashion it, he is not the responsible party.

But eric is correct about Martin's reaction to being followed (the details of which are unclear) putting him at least partly at fault if he indeed chose to confront Zimmerman.  Can't believe people are trying to argue otherwise.

-J

And I can't believe you're actually interpreting my argument as that. Trayvon guilty of being young, feeling threatened, being black (Adami's post), and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Zimmerman instigated the situation, and brought all the elements to the scene that ended up with the young mans deaths. Trayvon may have made some bad decisions, but those come after Zimmermans, and so become more justified.

Let me put it this way, Zimmerman is more responsible than Trayvon, and while Zimmerman can make a claim of self-defense that isn't absurd, Trayvon has a better claim to self-defense. Seeing as how two people cannot both be committing self-defense, that makes Zimmerman the loser out by default. To try and make this case shared and equal responsibility is absurd.

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2012, 06:28:57 PM »
Again, I ask you, what would have happened had there been no gun?
Zimmerman would have gotten beaten to an unknown degree, which could easily reach the point of brain damage.  As I've said, he's under no obligation to wait and see to what extent another intends to harm him.

And I feel compelled to point out that while I can certainly see how Trayvon would have felt threatened by someone following him,  I can also recognize that Zimmerman had every right as a citizen on public streets to follow him.  That shouldn't automatically result in a beat down. 

Let me put it this way, Zimmerman is more responsible than Trayvon, and while Zimmerman can make a claim of self-defense that isn't absurd, Trayvon has a better claim to self-defense. Seeing as how two people cannot both be committing self-defense, that makes Zimmerman the loser out by default. To try and make this case shared and equal responsibility is absurd.
This is an intriguing point.  I'll give it further consideration.  I'll also point out that the premise is already flawed, in that both parties can commit acts of self defense if either or both of them are mistaken in their interpretations, which appears to be a distinct possibility here.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19149
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2012, 07:33:33 PM »
Zimmerman followed Martin, Martin hid....Zimmerman lost sight of him and turned around to go back to his vehicle. He wasn't pursuing Martin after that. Martin then approached and confronted Zimmerman....sucker punched and began to pummel him.
  Like El Barto mentioned, those of us who carry a concealed weapon are aware that there is the possibilty that very weapon may be used against us. It is not Zimmermans 'fault' that Martin chose to go for the gun....had Martin chose to stay hidden and not be a macho about the situation he'd probably still be alive. But the fact is he did choose to engage Zimmerman...sucker punch him and then beging to beat the crap out of him. Zimmerman was well within his rights to protect his life....he doesn't know if Martin has a gun as well, a knife....
  Saying Martin has a 'better claim to self defense' is just silly to me. Self defense after initiating the physical confrontation? Zimmerman had ended any attempt he was making to 'find' Martin due to Martin hiding and Zimmerman not being able to see him. Once Martin re-established that contact in the manner he did...whatever you may believe if Zimmerman should have been following him or not....that exchange is over and done with. The new contact was initiated by Martin...then Martin engages Zimmerman in a severe beating. Martin gets shot out of self defense.
  I find it intriguing that something like this can be seen in two completely different lights.....and find it relieving for Zimmerman that Floridas' law will protect him because he's going to need it now that there is a witch trial going on in the press.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2012, 07:51:58 PM »
And now we come to where you and I part company.   :lol

For one thing, I'm not as certain of the actual sequence of events as you seem to be.  You've suggested what would be nearly a perfect scenario for Zimmerman's defense, and while it's certainly possible that it unfolded that way, it's just as possible that it's GZ's embellished testimony.  As the saying goes, there are three sides to every story.

Furthermore, as I pointed out yesterday, I see no reason why Trayvon couldn't act offensively and in self defense.  Consider the situation had you been in Trayvon's shoes.  Would you have let an unknown stalker follow you all the way to your house?  I suspect that being well armed, you would have confronted him to find out WTF before showing him the way to your family.

Also, any state's law would have defended Zimmerman under reasonable circumstances.  Contrary to what the NRA would like us to believe, the prisons aren't full of people who exercised their right to self defense in liberal states.  What the new Florida law does is to defend shooters under any circumstances, reasonable or otherwise.  I have a problem with that.

So I guess where the lines are drawn is that Scheavo puts this mostly on Zimmerman, and I think he's largely correct.  GMD dumps this squarely onto Trayvon, and I mostly agree with him as well.  Yet in toto, I think you're both wrong.   :lol
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19149
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2012, 08:02:53 PM »
And now we come to where you and I part company.   :lol

For one thing, I'm not as certain of the actual sequence of events as you seem to be.  You've suggested what would be nearly a perfect scenario for Zimmerman's defense, and while it's certainly possible that it unfolded that way, it's just as possible that it's GZ's embellished testimony.  As the saying goes, there are three sides to every story.

Furthermore, as I pointed out yesterday, I see no reason why Trayvon couldn't act offensively and in self defense.  Consider the situation had you been in Trayvon's shoes.  Would you have let an unknown stalker follow you all the way to your house?  I suspect that being well armed, you would have confronted him to find out WTF before showing him the way to your family.

Also, any state's law would have defended Zimmerman under reasonable circumstances.  Contrary to what the NRA would like us to believe, the prisons aren't full of people who exercised their right to self defense in liberal states.  What the new Florida law does is to defend shooters under any circumstances, reasonable or otherwise.  I have a problem with that.

So I guess where the lines are drawn is that Scheavo puts this mostly on Zimmerman, and I think he's largely correct.  GMD dumps this squarely onto Trayvon, and I mostly agree with him as well.  Yet in toto, I think you're both wrong.   :lol
I base the scenario I've stated on what Zimmerman said, what mulitple witnesses have said and what the police have corroborated. We will never know for sure. I base a lot of my 'certainty' on the fact I believe Martin was a 'thug'...from reading his twitter account down to what he is on recording saying...'well you have a problem now'...then commotion and the subsequent beating. Zimmerman had multiple injuries that match his account to the tee....Martin unfortunately had one injury...a fatal shot.
  There may be some 'middle ground' there that will never be known. But I know that the last thing people with a CCW liscense wants to do is shoot someone...for the reasons that is happening to Zimmerman at the moment. CCW liscense holders understand the bullseye that will be on them if they are involved in a shooting. That is why I tend to side with them, because I don't thing it is something Zimmerman set out to do.....he shouldn't be condemned for merely having a weapon.
I do 'judge' Martin a bit more in this case just by what I've learned about him and his 'lifestyle'.....I think he was a young man who like many young men his age thought he was tough and macho and made a poor decision.... a decision that not only ended his life but ruined the life of another man.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2012, 08:10:48 PM »
Most of us aren't condemning him for carrying a weapon; I've got no problem with that.  Some of us are condemning him for being the prime mover in an situation that left a person dead.  From any perspective, it all began with him. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19149
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2012, 08:28:33 PM »
Most of us aren't condemning him for carrying a weapon; I've got no problem with that.  Some of us are condemning him for being the prime mover in an situation that left a person dead.  From any perspective, it all began with him.

Let's say I get awoke tonight at 3 am. I look out my 2nd story window and see a person on my deck below. I have the wife call 911 then as she is on the phone I go over to my safe, get out my .45 and head downstairs. I get down there and my door has been jimmy'd open but no one is there. I walk over to the open door stick my head out and notice a man crouched behind my BBQ grill. Boom...Boom....a double tap center mass.....he's dead. Am I at fault?
   I was not going to wait for police to show up whenever they could or wanted to. I was not going to wait for someone to enter my home and possibly harm/kill/rape my wife and kids. When I saw him on my porch I am not going to wait and talk to him and see if he's a nice guy or wait for him to pull out his gun to shoot me.
  I understand that 'it all began' with Zimmerman because he chose to follow Martin, but how is investigating a suspicious suspect in a gated community that has had a recent string of burglaries doing something wrong? I just don't see it. If the mistake he made was not waiting in the car, I can understand his point why he didn't. If he was the 'captain' of that neighborhood watch it stands to reason that he knew the majority of his community. Putting myself in his shoes...I'd have been thinking that there is no way I'm waiting around for the police when one of my friends houses could be being robbed at that moment.
  If anything it is sad that a 6'-3" tall black man in a hoodie is automatically considered suspicious...but we've all been conditioned to 'think' that. If your honest you know what I mean when I say that.
   I guess unless or until some sort of major bombshell evidence comes to light against Zimmerman other than 5,6 8 year old accusations and the fact that he had a speeding ticket once....until/unless something drastic is uncovered....there is no way any charges should be brought against Zimmerman. If there are it is plain and simple buckling to the undeserved pressure of this media ridiculousness.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline PowerSlave

  • Posts: 2097
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2012, 08:37:45 PM »
I just watched police surveilance video on a news site of Zimmerman after he was taken into custody. Some of you folks may want to view the video. No apparent injuries can be seen ect. ect...

https://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html

All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again

Offline antigoon

  • Not Elvis
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10293
  • Gender: Male
  • This was a triumph.
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2012, 08:39:04 PM »
https://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/

Make of this what you will. His father is a county judge.
Quote
According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence — a  felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison.


edit: Oops, didn't see this:
Quote
Note: It has been brought to our attention that George Zimmerman has been arrested one time, not three, and that the charges against him were dropped after he completed a pre-trial diversion program. The additional two charges stem from the same incident on the same date.

Carry on.

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19149
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2012, 08:49:26 PM »
I just watched police surveilance video on a news site of Zimmerman after he was taken into custody. Some of you folks may want to view the video. No apparent injuries can be seen ect. ect...

https://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html

From the accompanying article:

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning.

I would think that the 'medical attention' he recieved would have also consisted of cleaning up any wounds. Who knows....really.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline skydivingninja

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11593
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2012, 08:50:37 PM »
Most of us aren't condemning him for carrying a weapon; I've got no problem with that.  Some of us are condemning him for being the prime mover in an situation that left a person dead.  From any perspective, it all began with him.

Let's say I get awoke tonight at 3 am. I look out my 2nd story window and see a person on my deck below. I have the wife call 911 then as she is on the phone I go over to my safe, get out my .45 and head downstairs. I get down there and my door has been jimmy'd open but no one is there. I walk over to the open door stick my head out and notice a man crouched behind my BBQ grill. Boom...Boom....a double tap center mass.....he's dead. Am I at fault?

If he's hiding/crouched behind your grill, is it really the right move to shoot first?  What about warning him to turn around, telling him the police are on their way, or threaten him with death if he comes any closer or tries to pull something?  You see him pull a weapon, fire away, fair enough.  No arguments from me there, I think you have the right to defend yourself.  But it just takes a little bit of grace under pressure to make the better choice and play the part of the better man if you can. 

I think my problem with this, no matter who's sequence of events we believe, is twofold.  1. That a big black kid in a hoodie is automatically considered suspicious, and 2. That in FL its apparently totally acceptable to shoot someone first, ask questions later, and not even be brought to a court to defend your case unlike pretty much every other state, from what I understand. 

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19149
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2012, 08:58:53 PM »
Most of us aren't condemning him for carrying a weapon; I've got no problem with that.  Some of us are condemning him for being the prime mover in an situation that left a person dead.  From any perspective, it all began with him.

Let's say I get awoke tonight at 3 am. I look out my 2nd story window and see a person on my deck below. I have the wife call 911 then as she is on the phone I go over to my safe, get out my .45 and head downstairs. I get down there and my door has been jimmy'd open but no one is there. I walk over to the open door stick my head out and notice a man crouched behind my BBQ grill. Boom...Boom....a double tap center mass.....he's dead. Am I at fault?

If he's hiding/crouched behind your grill, is it really the right move to shoot first?  What about warning him to turn around, telling him the police are on their way, or threaten him with death if he comes any closer or tries to pull something?  You see him pull a weapon, fire away, fair enough.  No arguments from me there, I think you have the right to defend yourself.  But it just takes a little bit of grace under pressure to make the better choice and play the part of the better man if you can. 

I think my problem with this, no matter who's sequence of events we believe, is twofold.  1. That a big black kid in a hoodie is automatically considered suspicious, and 2. That in FL its apparently totally acceptable to shoot someone first, ask questions later, and not even be brought to a court to defend your case unlike pretty much every other state, from what I understand.

I think that is a fair point you make....and one that I should have included. I don't think I would just see a shadowy body and fire. You should always identify your target or in this case...person. I would be very cautious to make sure he/she knew that any intimidating move would force me to fire. I honestly hope I'm never face with any situation like that or one where I'd think I'd have to shoot at someone. That'd be horrible, and I'm certain it'd eat me up. But I'm also certain I will do what it takes to protect my wife and kids.
  I think it sucks like you said that a big black kid in a hoodie...at night especially...is considered suspicious. Like you mentioned...that Florida law must have some pretty loose wording. I know that even here in Missouri which is pretty 'gun' friendly concerning the conceal carry laws and Castle Doctrine...you still can and will be held accountable and have to prove your case.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline PowerSlave

  • Posts: 2097
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2012, 09:27:39 PM »
I just watched police surveilance video on a news site of Zimmerman after he was taken into custody. Some of you folks may want to view the video. No apparent injuries can be seen ect. ect...

https://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html

From the accompanying article:

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning.

I would think that the 'medical attention' he recieved would have also consisted of cleaning up any wounds. Who knows....really.

I understand that we're not looking at high quality video but, I think that any wounds of that severity would have shown somewhat in the video. He looked rather healthy to me. Clean clothes ect. ect...
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2012, 10:49:38 PM »
  I understand that 'it all began' with Zimmerman because he chose to follow Martin, but how is investigating a suspicious suspect in a gated community that has had a recent string of burglaries doing something wrong?

Because the only thing "suspicious" about him was that he was black, and wearing a hoodie. Zimmerman tells us that himself, in the 9/11 tapes. It's nothing like someone being on your property.

From any perspective, it all began with him. 

And really, that's my point.


Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2012, 02:33:38 AM »
But eric is correct about Martin's reaction to being followed (the details of which are unclear) putting him at least partly at fault if he indeed chose to confront Zimmerman.  Can't believe people are trying to argue otherwise.

-J
And I can't believe you're actually interpreting my argument as that.

Don't think it was your post that I was referring to, but regardless, you're somehow reaching the other extreme...

Quote
Trayvon guilty of being young, feeling threatened, being black (Adami's post), and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

...the assumption that Martin was innocent of any wrongdoing.  Some sources report that he is the one who escalated the situation to violence.  If that were the case, would you really deny that he bears any responsibility whatsoever for what transpired afterward, even though Zimmerman had been following him?  Whatever went down that night, I wouldn't presume to say that there was "shared and equal responsibility," just that it's almost certain that each party has a degree of responsibility for the situation's tragic outcome.

Yours and GMD's accounts demonstrate two views that seem very sure of the details of the incident, but that differ drastically in content and come to opposite conclusions.  That alone says to me that there is simply nowhere near enough information (or perhaps an abundance of suspect information) to be making these judgment calls with any kind of certainty.  But understandably, our instinct is to side with the unarmed kid who lost his life, even though it's often not that cut and dry.

Quote
Trayvon may have made some bad decisions, but those come after Zimmermans, and so become more justified.

I don't know why this is necessarily true?

I was in plenty of situations when I was a young impulsive teenager where I felt I was in danger, in a bad place at a bad time, and felt "threatened."  But if your instinct is to react in those situations by instigating violence, something's wrong.

I'll say this though: I find it pretty damn hard to believe that Martin was able to beat Zimmerman to the degree Zimmerman reported.  GMD keeps bringing up that Martin was 6'3" versus Zimmerman's 5'9".  Zimmerman outweighed the kid by over 100 fucking pounds.  Not that that says anything definitively by itself, but it's tough to imagine a 250-lb man being helpless and unable to throw a lanky 140-lb featherweight (who just took him to the ground by the way) off of him when he's fighting for his life.

Quote
Let me put it this way, Zimmerman is more responsible than Trayvon, and while Zimmerman can make a claim of self-defense that isn't absurd, Trayvon has a better claim to self-defense.

If Martin initiated the actual altercation, I don't know that he actually has a better claim to self-defense.  But I don't know whether or not that is true.  And I don't know shit about the pertinent laws in Florida.  I don't know what I'm typing right now.  I don't know anything.


Another thing that I don't think has been discussed much in this thread: in spite of my distaste for the inevitable and vacuous automatic assumption of underlying racism which accompanies any crime like this in the U.S. when the victim is black and the perp is not, the Sanford cops' handling of this whole thing seems to be very suspiciously favoring Zimmerman at best, and overtly racist at worst.  Particularly disturbing are the witnesses that report the police trying to get them to modify their testimonies to fit Zimmerman's account.

-J

Offline orcus116

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 9599

Offline antigoon

  • Not Elvis
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10293
  • Gender: Male
  • This was a triumph.
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #89 on: March 29, 2012, 07:46:09 AM »
What an idiot.

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #90 on: March 29, 2012, 08:21:36 AM »
the Sanford cops' handling of this whole thing seems to be very suspiciously favoring Zimmerman at best, and overtly racist at worst.  Particularly disturbing are the witnesses that report the police trying to get them to modify their testimonies to fit Zimmerman's account.

-J
I was unaware of this aspect of it.  Yeah, the cops seemed to have no clue how to conduct a homicide investigation.  Telling witnesses what they "really" heard is about as sketchy as it gets.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8521
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #91 on: March 29, 2012, 08:26:12 AM »
I just watched police surveilance video on a news site of Zimmerman after he was taken into custody. Some of you folks may want to view the video. No apparent injuries can be seen ect. ect...

https://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html

I came here to post this.  Between this and Zimmerman saying "fucking coons" on the phone when he was talking to the 911 dispatcher who told him they didn't need him to follow Martin, something here doesn't really add up.  I mean, if what Zimmerman's lawyer and father are saying on their rationalization tour through the media is true (that he was getting "pummeled with punches" or "bloodied" by Martin ) then where are the injuries?  Where's the blood? 

The other thing I want to mention is the "Stand Your Ground" law is absurd.  You can thank the NRA for that stupidity.

The more I read and hear about this case, the more disturbing it sounds.

Offline antigoon

  • Not Elvis
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10293
  • Gender: Male
  • This was a triumph.
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #92 on: March 29, 2012, 08:27:16 AM »
BUT DID YOU SEE THAT KID'S TWEETS?!

Offline snapple

  • Dad-bod Expert
  • Posts: 5144
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #93 on: March 29, 2012, 08:56:50 AM »
Who wouldn't say something a bit racist if someone tried beating your ass?

Offline ehra

  • Posts: 3362
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2012, 09:03:43 AM »
Except this was while he was talking to the 911 dispatcher, before any confrontation took place.

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8521
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #95 on: March 29, 2012, 09:12:50 AM »
Precisely

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #96 on: March 29, 2012, 09:32:41 AM »

  Zimmerman outweighed the kid by over 100 fucking pounds

I don't think that is true.  Friends of his have said he is 40 pounds lighter than he was in most of the pictures they are showing of him in the media.  Ya know, the ones showing a heavy Zimmerman (from years ago) and a 12-year old Martin.  Martin was supposedly 6'2" and 170 pounds, so it is likely they were about the same weight, with Martin having the height advantage.  Just saying...the idea that Martin could have gotten the best of Zimmerman in a fist fight is anything but far-fetched.

Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #97 on: March 29, 2012, 09:40:57 AM »
The police reports say that Martin was 6'3" and 140 lbs and Zimmerman was 5'9" and 250 lbs.  Both seem accurate to me based on recent photos of them.  Of course they could be in error, but I'm unaware of any other source claiming otherwise.

-J

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #98 on: March 29, 2012, 09:47:00 AM »
If the guy in the video weighs 250, then he's absolutely pure muscle.

Irreverent in any case.  Size isn't often the determining factor in who wins a fight.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2012, 10:01:01 AM »
Size isn't often the determining factor in who wins a fight.

Right, and I said that in my previous post.  But weight is a factor, particularly in close quarters as these guys apparently were, and the weight disparity between them was great.  I just find it suspicious and unlikely that a 250-lb man was really completely unable to break free from or get a 140-lb kid off of him when his life was supposedly on the line.

-J

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #100 on: March 29, 2012, 10:13:47 AM »
Quote
Trayvon guilty of being young, feeling threatened, being black (Adami's post), and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

...the assumption that Martin was innocent of any wrongdoing.  Some sources report that he is the one who escalated the situation to violence.  If that were the case, would you really deny that he bears any responsibility whatsoever for what transpired afterward, even though Zimmerman had been following him?  Whatever went down that night, I wouldn't presume to say that there was "shared and equal responsibility," just that it's almost certain that each party has a degree of responsibility for the situation's tragic outcome.

Last time I checked, Zimmerman hasn't been held accountable, at all, for the outcome of these events. Trayvon's dead, so it's a little silly to start talking about what kind of punishment he deserves.

Quote
Yours and GMD's accounts demonstrate two views that seem very sure of the details of the incident, but that differ drastically in content and come to opposite conclusions.  That alone says to me that there is simply nowhere near enough information (or perhaps an abundance of suspect information) to be making these judgment calls with any kind of certainty.  But understandably, our instinct is to side with the unarmed kid who lost his life, even though it's often not that cut and dry.

Actually, GMD's account goes beyond hard evidence of the case. I'm keeping myself to precisely what we know. Zimmerman followed Trayvon - even after Trayvon tried to get away (Zimmerman chasing him, as you can hear on his phone, Trayvons girlfriend reporting the same thing) - had no reason to suspect Trayvon of any crime, and brought a gun into the incident that ended up being used to kill someone. Those are indisputable facts, and further information cannot overturn those facts.

Quote
I'll say this though: I find it pretty damn hard to believe that Martin was able to beat Zimmerman to the degree Zimmerman reported.  GMD keeps bringing up that Martin was 6'3" versus Zimmerman's 5'9".  Zimmerman outweighed the kid by over 100 fucking pounds.  Not that that says anything definitively by itself, but it's tough to imagine a 250-lb man being helpless and unable to throw a lanky 140-lb featherweight (who just took him to the ground by the way) off of him when he's fighting for his life.

That's not all, apparently Trayvon had both of his legs ON Zimmerman's arms, pinning him down. AT least, that's what Zimmerman told police, and what the police told Trayvon's father, meaning the accounts as they stand seem odd.

Quote
Quote
Let me put it this way, Zimmerman is more responsible than Trayvon, and while Zimmerman can make a claim of self-defense that isn't absurd, Trayvon has a better claim to self-defense.

If Martin initiated the actual altercation, I don't know that he actually has a better claim to self-defense.  But I don't know whether or not that is true.  And I don't know shit about the pertinent laws in Florida.  I don't know what I'm typing right now.  I don't know anything.

Because he was being followed, and felt threatened. Especially under Florida law, the "stand your ground law," don't you think that his actions are acceptable? I mean fuck, if Zimmerman's hiding behind the law, Trayvon certainly would've been able to.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 10:27:21 AM by Scheavo »

Offline Ryzee

  • Posts: 1259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #101 on: March 29, 2012, 10:19:48 AM »
Size isn't often the determining factor in who wins a fight.

Right, and I said that in my previous post.  But weight is a factor, particularly in close quarters as these guys apparently were, and the weight disparity between them was great.  I just find it suspicious and unlikely that a 250-lb man was really completely unable to break free from or get a 140-lb kid off of him when his life was supposedly on the line.

-J

Thanks so much for saying that J.  That's a point I've been trying to make too.

Regardless of size, race, what they were wearing, who threw the first punch or who started what, what it comes down to from what I understand is these guys were fighting in the street.  Regardless of who was kicking who's ass, it was a fight.  Is it true that under Florida law you can pull out a gun and shoot someone in a street fight like it's the wild west, say you were acting in self defense and that's that?  That's pretty crazy/scary to me.

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #102 on: March 29, 2012, 10:28:42 AM »
Regardless of size, race, what they were wearing, who threw the first punch or who started what, what it comes down to from what I understand is these guys were fighting in the street.  Regardless of who was kicking who's ass, it was a fight.  Is it true that under Florida law you can pull out a gun and shoot someone in a street fight like it's the wild west, say you were acting in self defense and that's that?  That's pretty crazy/scary to me.
A person is under no obligation to get their ass kicked.  Period.  In many states, a person has the right to use force, including deadly force, to stop an unlawful use of force against them.  I have no problem with this. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Ryzee

  • Posts: 1259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2012, 10:38:07 AM »
Regardless of size, race, what they were wearing, who threw the first punch or who started what, what it comes down to from what I understand is these guys were fighting in the street.  Regardless of who was kicking who's ass, it was a fight.  Is it true that under Florida law you can pull out a gun and shoot someone in a street fight like it's the wild west, say you were acting in self defense and that's that?  That's pretty crazy/scary to me.
A person is under no obligation to get their ass kicked.  Period.  In many states, a person has the right to use force, including deadly force, to stop an unlawful use of force against them.  I have no problem with this. 

Fair enough.  I do.  If someone is invading your home or property, or even just jumps you on the street for no reason then I'm right there with you.  But since this is a situation that one guy instigated by choosing to follow another guy for no reason other than he "looked suspicious," whatever that means, and the other guy escalated in reacting by throwing blows, then I don't see this as being much different from the street brawls I've seen break out in front of bars a million times.  The idea that someone is within their rights to pull out a gun in a situation like that and blow the other guy away just seems kind of barbaric to me.  If Zimmerman were a cop and/or Martin had so much as a screwdriver to use as a deadly weapon then my whole opinion would change. 

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2012, 10:40:38 AM »
The only thing that is clear to me, is that both parties made some very bad decisions, all of which led to this tragedy.  There were likely so many instances where it could have been diffused and sent on another less lethal path....with just a different action one or both parts.  Both parties made active choices that led to a death of one person, and the ruin of another life.  Tragic.
There is no 100% right or 100% wrong in this case.  It is almost for sure that there is responsibility on both parties for the direction this incident was taken.  Too bad that neither the family of the deceased nor Zimmerman likely wont accept that fact.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29