Author Topic: Trayvon Martin  (Read 47871 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #350 on: April 12, 2012, 02:10:31 PM »
This is a bit off-topic but the whole "anything you say can be used against you" line in Miranda warnings doesn't include another very important point that those statements, AFAIK, *can't* be used *for* you.

See, police testimony about what you said to them that they can't personally verify is hearsay but there's an exemption for statements that are against your own interest. So when you try to have them testify on stuff that you said that benefit you are thrown out because there is no exemption for hearsay statements that are in your own interest.
Yup.  That's high on the list of reasons why you don't answer any questions.  Ever.  Even if you're innocent. 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #351 on: April 12, 2012, 02:27:38 PM »
This is a bit off-topic but the whole "anything you say can be used against you" line in Miranda warnings doesn't include another very important point that those statements, AFAIK, *can't* be used *for* you.

See, police testimony about what you said to them that they can't personally verify is hearsay but there's an exemption for statements that are against your own interest. So when you try to have them testify on stuff that you said that benefit you are thrown out because there is no exemption for hearsay statements that are in your own interest.

Not really true.  There are plenty of different hearsay exceptions that could apply.  Plus, the defendant can take the stand and just say what he or she wants to say.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #352 on: April 12, 2012, 02:42:34 PM »
As I understand it, Johnny has no obligation to confirm anything exculpatory that you say during questioning.  He can and will use anything incriminating, however. 
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #353 on: April 12, 2012, 03:06:35 PM »
Not really true.  There are plenty of different hearsay exceptions that could apply.  Plus, the defendant can take the stand and just say what he or she wants to say.
But that's the point: I cannot, at least according to my reading of Federal Rule of Evidence 801 (d), use prior statements of mine for my defense unless I have given testimony related to it. By default, the statements would be inadmissible (according to how I read the rule and according to what I'd seen in a presentation by a law professor).

Offline bosk1

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #354 on: April 12, 2012, 03:38:43 PM »
As I understand it, Johnny has no obligation to confirm anything exculpatory that you say during questioning.  He can and will use anything incriminating, however. 

No obligation to volunteer the statement, no.  But if asked a question that would call for that information, and he withholds it, he is perjuring himself and is in contempt of court.

Not really true.  There are plenty of different hearsay exceptions that could apply.  Plus, the defendant can take the stand and just say what he or she wants to say.
But that's the point: I cannot, at least according to my reading of Federal Rule of Evidence 801 (d), use prior statements of mine for my defense unless I have given testimony related to it. By default, the statements would be inadmissible (according to how I read the rule and according to what I'd seen in a presentation by a law professor).

Again, that is not exactly true.  FRE 801 only covers things that are exclusions from the hearsay rule--i.e., things that are considered not hearsay.  There are other rules that are exceptions to the hearsay rule that would let statements come in even though they are hearsay.  In other words, they are hearsay, so the general rules is that hearsay does not come into evidence, but even though they are hearsay, there are exceptions that let them come into evidence anyway.  As those rules apply, there are TONS of situations where a witness can testify as to his own prior statements.  And, again, even aside from that, even in situations where you cannot testify as to the statement itself, you can still testify as to the facts.  So let's assume you couldn't testify as follows (which isn't true, but let's assume):  "Then I said to him, 'Oh, it looks like you have a gun!'"  You would still be allowed to testify:  "It looked to me like he had a gun." 
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #355 on: April 12, 2012, 04:07:39 PM »
No obligation to volunteer the statement, no.  But if asked a question that would call for that information, and he withholds it, he is perjuring himself and is in contempt of court.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc#t=9m20s
As the above indicates, the questions/answers would be hearsay, at least according to James Duane (professor at Regent University School of Law).

Again, that is not exactly true.  FRE 801 only covers things that are exclusions from the hearsay rule--i.e., things that are considered not hearsay.  There are other rules that are exceptions to the hearsay rule that would let statements come in even though they are hearsay.  In other words, they are hearsay, so the general rules is that hearsay does not come into evidence, but even though they are hearsay, there are exceptions that let them come into evidence anyway.  As those rules apply, there are TONS of situations where a witness can testify as to his own prior statements.
Fair enough, I realize there are aspects of this that you'd know better from being an attorney and having gone through far more than my 0 hours of law study. Although, I thought I was being clear that I wasn't talking about a situation where someone is testifying about his/her prior statements.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #356 on: April 12, 2012, 04:11:50 PM »
Eek.

Quote
Florida investigators say in an affidavit that George Zimmerman profiled, confronted, then fatally shot Trayvon Martin.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #357 on: April 12, 2012, 04:35:52 PM »
No obligation to volunteer the statement, no.  But if asked a question that would call for that information, and he withholds it, he is perjuring himself and is in contempt of court.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc#t=9m20s
As the above indicates, the questions/answers would be hearsay, at least according to James Duane (professor at Regent University School of Law).
Yeah, that video was pretty much my whole understanding of the matter. 

I love when the cop asks if any of the sped on the way to class that morning, and half of them raised their hands.   :rollin
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #358 on: April 12, 2012, 05:03:09 PM »
No obligation to volunteer the statement, no.  But if asked a question that would call for that information, and he withholds it, he is perjuring himself and is in contempt of court.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc#t=9m20s
As the above indicates, the questions/answers would be hearsay, at least according to James Duane (professor at Regent University School of Law).

Yes, and as is typical for a law school professor, he is presenting from the perspective of an academic, not a practitioner who has actual experience in court.  And, again, he is only focusing on 801(d).  There are plenty of hearsay exceptions that would let the statement in.  801(d) itself provides three situations in which the statement would not be hearsay and would be admissible.  But in addition to that, look at 803.  If any of the statements to the police (or to anyone else, for that matter) fall within any of the 23 exceptions in 803, they come into evidence. 
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #359 on: April 12, 2012, 05:20:16 PM »
Actually, I think you'll find that he was talking from that perspective because he was talking mostly to non-lawyer laypeople rather than because he possibly never practiced.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #360 on: April 12, 2012, 05:36:51 PM »
Heard in the news today some woman praising Jesus for the arrest :lol

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #361 on: April 12, 2012, 07:06:54 PM »
Actually, I think you'll find that he was talking from that perspective because he was talking mostly to non-lawyer laypeople rather than because he possibly never practiced.

Either way, it boils down to:  Read the rules.  There are TONS of exceptions where that kind of thing could come in.  It's in black and white.
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Offline ddtonfire

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #362 on: April 12, 2012, 09:59:44 PM »

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #363 on: April 15, 2012, 05:29:04 AM »
Morbid curiosity

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #364 on: April 15, 2012, 09:24:34 PM »
Bill Cosby is officially the Benjamin Franklin of black folk.  After him I guess it's Colin Powell as the elder statesman.

It amuses me that as soon as he makes a rambling and disjointed statement on the matter, it's front page news because everybody's been waiting so long for his take.  I generally agree with what he had to say, but he's certainly not as keen as he once was.  It's also very hard to listen to him now without hearing him in the Eddie Murphy voice. 
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #365 on: April 20, 2012, 08:05:27 AM »
A Photo has been released of the back of Zimmermans head three minutes after he shot Martin in self defense.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FQs9lWBIQ
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #366 on: April 20, 2012, 08:53:21 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #367 on: April 20, 2012, 09:07:27 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'
Dude is in jail charged with 2nd degree murder because of public and political pressure....period.  The "original" investigation from the police and prosecution evidently believed Zimmerman acted in self defense otherwise he would have been charged right off the bat. It wasn't until the "special" prosecution was enlisted after the outcry and media hype that these charges were brought against him, and no matter what she says....it's due to the social and political pressures and nothing more.
  I'm going to trust that the 'system' will work in this case.....either way. If they have evidence showing he didn't act in self defense and he 'murdered' Martin....then good.....send him to prison. But if the evidence shows he acted in self defense and within the confies of the SYG law.....he deserves to be exhonerated and not convicted of a lesser crime at all to appease the public and family.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #368 on: April 20, 2012, 09:13:54 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'
Dude is in jail charged with 2nd degree murder because of public and political pressure....period.  The "original" investigation from the police and prosecution evidently believed Zimmerman acted in self defense otherwise he would have been charged right off the bat. It wasn't until the "special" prosecution was enlisted after the outcry and media hype that these charges were brought against him, and no matter what she says....it's due to the social and political pressures and nothing more.
  I'm going to trust that the 'system' will work in this case.....either way. If they have evidence showing he didn't act in self defense and he 'murdered' Martin....then good.....send him to prison. But if the evidence shows he acted in self defense and within the confies of the SYG law.....he deserves to be exhonerated and not convicted of a lesser crime at all to appease the public and family.

Oh, I didn't realize you had somehow managed to see all of the evidence in the case.  My bad.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #369 on: April 20, 2012, 09:17:11 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'
Dude is in jail charged with 2nd degree murder because of public and political pressure....period.  The "original" investigation from the police and prosecution evidently believed Zimmerman acted in self defense otherwise he would have been charged right off the bat. It wasn't until the "special" prosecution was enlisted after the outcry and media hype that these charges were brought against him, and no matter what she says....it's due to the social and political pressures and nothing more.
  I'm going to trust that the 'system' will work in this case.....either way. If they have evidence showing he didn't act in self defense and he 'murdered' Martin....then good.....send him to prison. But if the evidence shows he acted in self defense and within the confies of the SYG law.....he deserves to be exhonerated and not convicted of a lesser crime at all to appease the public and family.

Oh, I didn't realize you had somehow managed to see all of the evidence in the case.  My bad.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #370 on: April 20, 2012, 09:21:39 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'
Dude is in jail charged with 2nd degree murder because of public and political pressure....period.  The "original" investigation from the police and prosecution evidently believed Zimmerman acted in self defense otherwise he would have been charged right off the bat. It wasn't until the "special" prosecution was enlisted after the outcry and media hype that these charges were brought against him, and no matter what she says....it's due to the social and political pressures and nothing more.
  I'm going to trust that the 'system' will work in this case.....either way. If they have evidence showing he didn't act in self defense and he 'murdered' Martin....then good.....send him to prison. But if the evidence shows he acted in self defense and within the confies of the SYG law.....he deserves to be exhonerated and not convicted of a lesser crime at all to appease the public and family.
That's not exactly correct.  The original investigation was quite ambiguous, with the police wanting him charged.  The didn't no-bill him because they felt he acted lawfully, but because the prosecutors didn't think they could win a conviction.  There's a big difference between "he done right" and "we can't prove that he did wrong."   
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #371 on: April 20, 2012, 09:39:26 AM »
I really don't care as this happens a lot. But what I do care about is what's going to,happen with that Law, as it was proven to be full of flaws.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #372 on: April 20, 2012, 09:41:39 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'
Dude is in jail charged with 2nd degree murder because of public and political pressure....period.  The "original" investigation from the police and prosecution evidently believed Zimmerman acted in self defense otherwise he would have been charged right off the bat. It wasn't until the "special" prosecution was enlisted after the outcry and media hype that these charges were brought against him, and no matter what she says....it's due to the social and political pressures and nothing more.
  I'm going to trust that the 'system' will work in this case.....either way. If they have evidence showing he didn't act in self defense and he 'murdered' Martin....then good.....send him to prison. But if the evidence shows he acted in self defense and within the confies of the SYG law.....he deserves to be exhonerated and not convicted of a lesser crime at all to appease the public and family.
That's not exactly correct.  The original investigation was quite ambiguous, with the police wanting him charged.  The didn't no-bill him because they felt he acted lawfully, but because the prosecutors didn't think they could win a conviction.  There's a big difference between "he done right" and "we can't prove that he did wrong."
Well, IMO.....unless they come out with some never before seen or found evidence, which is possible........but unless that is the case and it turns out there is no "new" evidence other than the public and political outcry...those are the reasons he has been charged. Not due to 'new' or incriminating evidence but due to Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the national media firing up the torches and grabbing the pitchforks.
  I don't see how Zimmerman recieves a 'fair' trial...at all. I have no doubts that he is going to get convicted of 'something'....maybe the evidence will end up supporting that he should. But even if it doesn't show anything new or absolute I think the guy is going to get convicted of some sort of charge if only so 'they' can say...."look we did something about it."
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #373 on: April 20, 2012, 09:54:45 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'
Dude is in jail charged with 2nd degree murder because of public and political pressure....period.  The "original" investigation from the police and prosecution evidently believed Zimmerman acted in self defense otherwise he would have been charged right off the bat. It wasn't until the "special" prosecution was enlisted after the outcry and media hype that these charges were brought against him, and no matter what she says....it's due to the social and political pressures and nothing more.
  I'm going to trust that the 'system' will work in this case.....either way. If they have evidence showing he didn't act in self defense and he 'murdered' Martin....then good.....send him to prison. But if the evidence shows he acted in self defense and within the confies of the SYG law.....he deserves to be exhonerated and not convicted of a lesser crime at all to appease the public and family.
That's not exactly correct.  The original investigation was quite ambiguous, with the police wanting him charged.  The didn't no-bill him because they felt he acted lawfully, but because the prosecutors didn't think they could win a conviction.  There's a big difference between "he done right" and "we can't prove that he did wrong."
Well, IMO.....unless they come out with some never before seen or found evidence, which is possible........but unless that is the case and it turns out there is no "new" evidence other than the public and political outcry...those are the reasons he has been charged. Not due to 'new' or incriminating evidence but due to Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the national media firing up the torches and grabbing the pitchforks.
  I don't see how Zimmerman recieves a 'fair' trial...at all. I have no doubts that he is going to get convicted of 'something'....maybe the evidence will end up supporting that he should. But even if it doesn't show anything new or absolute I think the guy is going to get convicted of some sort of charge if only so 'they' can say...."look we did something about it."

Well the family did say they only wanted an arrest. And they got it.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #374 on: April 20, 2012, 10:17:25 AM »
The judge denying the prosecutions request of 1 million dollar bond and setting it at $150,000 does say a lot about the case already. A local radio show fielded a caller identifying himself as a prosecutor and he basically said that if there were overwhelming evidence against Zimmerman in the evidentiary hearing....that a higher bail would have been granted. Is that accurate Bosk1? 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #375 on: April 20, 2012, 10:23:50 AM »
It hasn't been legally determined yet if it was "self defense" otherwise dude wouldn't be in jail charged with 2nd degree murder.  Just sayin'
Dude is in jail charged with 2nd degree murder because of public and political pressure....period.  The "original" investigation from the police and prosecution evidently believed Zimmerman acted in self defense otherwise he would have been charged right off the bat. It wasn't until the "special" prosecution was enlisted after the outcry and media hype that these charges were brought against him, and no matter what she says....it's due to the social and political pressures and nothing more.
  I'm going to trust that the 'system' will work in this case.....either way. If they have evidence showing he didn't act in self defense and he 'murdered' Martin....then good.....send him to prison. But if the evidence shows he acted in self defense and within the confies of the SYG law.....he deserves to be exhonerated and not convicted of a lesser crime at all to appease the public and family.
That's not exactly correct.  The original investigation was quite ambiguous, with the police wanting him charged.  The didn't no-bill him because they felt he acted lawfully, but because the prosecutors didn't think they could win a conviction.  There's a big difference between "he done right" and "we can't prove that he did wrong."
Well, IMO.....unless they come out with some never before seen or found evidence, which is possible........but unless that is the case and it turns out there is no "new" evidence other than the public and political outcry...those are the reasons he has been charged. Not due to 'new' or incriminating evidence but due to Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the national media firing up the torches and grabbing the pitchforks.
  I don't see how Zimmerman recieves a 'fair' trial...at all. I have no doubts that he is going to get convicted of 'something'....maybe the evidence will end up supporting that he should. But even if it doesn't show anything new or absolute I think the guy is going to get convicted of some sort of charge if only so 'they' can say...."look we did something about it."
He was involved in an incident that might warrant a trial.  They decided that it probably wasn't worth it, until the uproar, and then they decided to go ahead and do it anyway.  I see nothing problematic with that at all.  Lots of people who are innocent still get put on trial, and while it sucks for them, it does also serve to demonstrate their innocence. 

The judge denying the prosecutions request of 1 million dollar bond and setting it at $150,000 does say a lot about the case already. A local radio show fielded a caller identifying himself as a prosecutor and he basically said that if there were overwhelming evidence against Zimmerman in the evidentiary hearing....that a higher bail would have been granted. Is that accurate Bosk1? 
I'm not sure if it's how things work in the real world, but evidence of guilt or innocence shouldn't play any part whatsoever in the bail decision.  Hell, no quality evidence has actually been presented yet.  It's a function of flight risk and risk of further harm.  The amount, ideally, should be based on what's required to insure that he's compelled to stick around (nobody wants to forfeit $150k) and give him the opportunity to afford it (if it's deserved at all).
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #376 on: April 20, 2012, 11:35:18 AM »
One thing to consider is that he won't have to give $150,000. Remember that when they set bail, you usually only have to provide 10% of that total to be released. So he only needs to give $15,000 which is doable.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #377 on: April 20, 2012, 12:02:39 PM »
One thing to consider is that he won't have to give $150,000. Remember that when they set bail, you usually only have to provide 10% of that total to be released. So he only needs to give $15,000 which is doable.
I'm not sure, but I think the way it works is that the bail-bondsman puts up the full amount, and you only have to pay him 10%, which is his take and therefore non-refundable.  That puts the onus on the bondsman to make sure you don't skip out, since his refund is contingent on you being where you're supposed to be.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #378 on: April 20, 2012, 12:43:30 PM »
Just FYI, El Barto, but the evidence against you in a criminal proceeding weighs very heavily on what kind of bail they set.  If the prosecution has tight evidence against a murderer, for example, they will often set no bail at all, but if the evidence is weak, then bail is set.  If it's really weak, the bail may be a very small amount.



Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #379 on: April 20, 2012, 12:55:24 PM »
Just FYI, El Barto, but the evidence against you in a criminal proceeding weighs very heavily on what kind of bail they set.  If the prosecution has tight evidence against a murderer, for example, they will often set no bail at all, but if the evidence is weak, then bail is set.  If it's really weak, the bail may be a very small amount.
If that's the case here then, what does the $150,000 signify? Is that high? Low? If Zimmermans lawyers think that's low could they waive his right to be tried by a jury and accept a trial by a judge, thinking the judge doesn't see significant evidence? To me $150,000 is a lot...but on the other hand if the prosecution wanted a million and only got 150k...that seems like a huge gap.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #380 on: April 20, 2012, 01:09:45 PM »
Just FYI, El Barto, but the evidence against you in a criminal proceeding weighs very heavily on what kind of bail they set.  If the prosecution has tight evidence against a murderer, for example, they will often set no bail at all, but if the evidence is weak, then bail is set.  If it's really weak, the bail may be a very small amount.
If that's the case here then, what does the $150,000 signify? Is that high? Low? If Zimmermans lawyers think that's low could they waive his right to be tried by a jury and accept a trial by a judge, thinking the judge doesn't see significant evidence? To me $150,000 is a lot...but on the other hand if the prosecution wanted a million and only got 150k...that seems like a huge gap.

Second degree murder bail set at $150k....eh, that's pretty low, I think.   I've seen $500k for armed robbery. 


Offline slycordinator

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #381 on: April 20, 2012, 01:25:28 PM »
To me $150,000 is a lot...but on the other hand if the prosecution wanted a million and only got 150k...that seems like a huge gap.
But people don't pay the whole $150,000, generally.

As was pointed out by me (with the correction by El Barto), you'd pay a bail bondsman 10% of the bail (in this case, $15,000) and the bondsman agrees to be responsible for the bail since they trust that you won't skip out.

Offline Orion1967

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #382 on: April 20, 2012, 03:14:30 PM »
To me $150,000 is a lot...but on the other hand if the prosecution wanted a million and only got 150k...that seems like a huge gap.
But people don't pay the whole $150,000, generally.

As was pointed out by me (with the correction by El Barto), you'd pay a bail bondsman 10% of the bail (in this case, $15,000) and the bondsman agrees to be responsible for the bail since they trust that you won't skip out.
That is one way to do it, but I am pretty sure you can also still put property or other items of value up as collatoral to insure your appearance at trial.  So if I owned a house that was worth at least 150K then I could put it up as bond. Not sure about the 10% part either never having had to use the services of a bondsman but typically thats the rate they pay a bail agent for recovery of a skip not sure if there is anytihng in the correllation there or not.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #383 on: April 20, 2012, 03:23:33 PM »
I'd read you could put property up as collateral but I wasn't sure if that applied in every jurisdiction. But the 10% to a bondsman definitely is used everywhere.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #384 on: April 20, 2012, 03:37:33 PM »
Every state is different, and given the shaky ground of allowing people to profit from law enforcement activities, it's pretty heavily regulated (and rightly so).  Some states don't allow bondsman to operate at all.  The ones that do will often set a fixed percentage, 10-20%.
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