Trayvon Martin

[eric42434224]

If some of these accounts are correct, it looks like there is fault on BOTH parties.  Zimmerman may have started it by following Martin, and he shouldnt have.  But that is not reason for a physical altercation.  Martin should not have escalated it, if he did, to a physical altercation.  There is no clear account of the incident, so it is speculation, but....

If Martin felt threatened, he had the opportunity to flee, or threaten to call the police, or yell for help.  Escalating the incident to a physical one is an act of aggression.  If the above dialogue is correct, he has no claim of self defense.  Zimmerman put himself in the situation, but if someone physically attacks you, then self defense is justified.  The above dialogue, again IF true, makes me think there is fault on both parties, but shows Martin as an aggressor that doesnt appear very threatened.

JMO

EDIT...but seriosly, just think about this for one moment. 

-If you are walking home, and someone is following you, what do you do?  First, I keep on walking until I am somewhere public, or at my home where I can find shelter and protection.

-Run.  Seriously....RUN.

-Yell loudly for help.

-Use the cell phone in your fucking pocket and call the police.  And yell loudly that you are calling the police.

If YOU are feeling threatened by someone that may be following you, do YOU turn around and ask them if, "they have a problem"?....and when they answer no, you respond, "well now you do"?  Then get in a physical altercation?

I sure as fuck dont respond that way.  To me that is a reaction of bravado, and for sure someone that is NOT threatened.  IF that dialogue is true, the kid sure as shit at a minimum shares blame for his own death.

[Chino]

makes me think there is fault on both parties, but shows Martin as an aggressor that doesnt appear very threatened.

JMO

If I'm a black kid in a crime watch neighborhood, and some loon is profiling me while following my every move, I am going to feel very threatened.

[Adami]

Being followed by a guy with a gun is threatening.

[eric42434224]

Being followed by a guy with a gun is threatening.

makes me think there is fault on both parties, but shows Martin as an aggressor that doesnt appear very threatened.

JMO

If I'm a black kid in a crime watch neighborhood, and some loon is profiling me while following my every move, I am going to feel very threatened.

Then RUN.
Or yell for help.
Or call the police.

How insane is it to confront your follower (especially if you see he has a gun), in an aggressive manner, and instigate a physical incident?
Im sorry, but that does not sound one bit like a reaction of someone who is threatened.

[rumborak]

Depends on. Maybe he was sick and tired of being "traced" in his own neighborhood by those watchdogs. I highly doubt Zimmermann was the first and only person to follow a black kid "out of his zone" with a shotgun in his hand. If that happens to you everyday, at some point you will probably start pushing back.

rumborak

[Chino]

Being followed by a guy with a gun is threatening.

makes me think there is fault on both parties, but shows Martin as an aggressor that doesnt appear very threatened.

JMO

If I'm a black kid in a crime watch neighborhood, and some loon is profiling me while following my every move, I am going to feel very threatened.

Then RUN.
Or yell for help.
Or call the police.

How insane is it to confront your follower (especially if you see he has a gun), in an aggressive manner, and instigate a physical incident?
Im sorry, but that does not sound one bit like a reaction of someone who is threatened.

I doubt he knew he had a gun. No one with a functioning brain would charge to run at someone knowing it is possible that they will be shot. He could have ran away, been chased and tackled, and then had the shit beaten out of him. If he thought he was going to be attacked regardless, his best bet was to throw the first punch.

[Adami]

Run? A black kid running away from a white guy is just automatically "guilty". At that point, the guy gets the police, the kid is arrested no question.

Yell for help? To whom? The other white guys with guns?

Call the police? "Hey, I'm a black kid with a hoodie and a white guy is following me". The police would hang up.



You assume there is no racism in the system anymore.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

People are known to sometimes act differently than one would expect when under duress or facing the possibility of harm.  It's easy for us to say what he should have done.  We weren't the ones being tailed by a self-appointed neighborhood watchman gun nut who had a history of calling the police for anything and everything and who was described by neighbors as "fixated on crime and focused on young, black males".

[rumborak]

The real problem was that a man with very questionable mental health owned a gun.

rumborak

[El Barto]

Call the police? "Hey, I'm a black kid with a hoodie and a white guy is following me". The police would hang up break the world land speed record coming to his aid.

[eric42434224]

If he thought he was going to be attacked regardless, his best bet was to throw the first punch.

Obviously not.  That is NEVER the best option.  He didnt even know he would be chased.  Run first.  If chased, then MAYBE attack.
Attacking first makes absolutely ZERO sense if there is an option to get away.  And I doubt that Zimmerman would catch Martin in a race.  Not only that, if you want to attack first, you do it to gain an advantage of surprise, right?  How is saying, "now you got a problem" basically announcing your intent helping?

Sorry, I dont buy it for a minute.  Not saying Zimmerman doesnt have fault....just that Martin not only had other options, but actually chose a course of action that escalated the situation, and contributed to his own death.  JMO from sketchy details.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The real problem was that a man with very questionable mental health owned a gun.

rumborak

And that said questionable mental health gun owner though there was any good reason to follow a black kid who was doing nothing wrong, creating a situation that wouldn't have existed otherwise.

[rumborak]

If he thought he was going to be attacked regardless, his best bet was to throw the first punch.

Obviously not.  That is NEVER the best option.  He didnt even know he would be chased.  Run first.  If chased, then MAYBE attack.
Attacking first makes absolutely ZERO sense if there is an option to get away.  And I doubt that Zimmerman would catch Martin in a race.  Not only that, if you want to attack first, you do it to gain an advantage of surprise, right?  How is saying, "now you got a problem" basically announcing your intent helping?

Sorry, I dont buy it for a minute.  Not saying Zimmerman doesnt have fault....just that Martin not only had other options, but actually chose a course of action that escalated the situation, and contributed to his own death.  JMO from sketchy details.

Again, you're assuming this was an out-of-the-ordinary occurrence. Martin will have been tracked many times before on his way home I would think. At some point you push back, gun or no gun.

rumborak

[eric42434224]

Assuming it is an ordinary occurence would make me think he had even more ability to react in a rational manner than if it were an unusual occurence.  If it were unusual, your reaction would be more likely to be instinctual.  If it were an ordinary occurence, it shows even more that the kid knew what he was doing by escalating the physical aspect of the encounter.

Dont get me wrong here, as I DO NOT think what Zimmerman did was OK.  This doesnt happen without Zimmerman starting it, but I also dont think it ends in a kid being killed if Martin doesnt act tough and confront physically (IF that is what happened.)
I see fault in both.

[Ryzee]

I brought this up in the chat thread already and it was kind of glossed over, but I still don't understand how a man with a gun shooting an unarmed man is an act of self defense.  Even if Martin was kicking his ass, which it sounds like he was.  Barto mentioned in the chat thread when I brought this up that people get beaten to death all the time, but I just don't see how that would have been a realistic possibility in this scenario.  Multiple guys jumping one guy, a much larger person attacking a much smaller person or a man attacking a woman in an attempted rape situation then sure.  But two grown men, one on one, and the guy who instigated the confrontation suddenly thinks he's going to get beaten to death unless he shoots the other guy?  I would assume that if Zimmerman is the type of guy who takes it upon himself to be an armed neighborhood watch patrolman and felt confident enough to attempt to confront somebody he felt was "acting suspicious" in his neighborhood then he would be the type of man who felt that he could defend himself against another man in a fistfight.

But anyway, here's the situation as I see it in it's most basic form.  Two men were in an altercation on the street.  One of the men was armed with a gun, the other was unarmed.  The armed man shot and killed the unarmed man.  Zimmerman was not a cop, and Martin was not a suspect in some crime.  Martin was not invading Zimmerman's home.  Don't advocates of gun ownership for self defense often say "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6?"  If police arrived on a scene where one civilian is dead on the street and another civilian is holding a gun, wouldn't they arrest the guy with the gun?  Get him in a courtroom, have him judged by 12, and if he can't be proven guilty of any wrongdoing then that's that.  I don't think that's too much to expect, and I think most people's outrage over this situation is that that hasn't happened.

[gmillerdrake]

The real problem was that a man with very questionable mental health owned a gun.

rumborak

I was getting worried rumborak, usually you throw that comment in any gun related thread early on. 
What is 'questionable mental health'? I own several guns and have had speeding tickets, I called the police on a girlfriend once in my early 20's for what could be considered a 'domestic disturbance'..we were both drunk. I've smoked enough weed (not in the past 6 years) and drank enough liquor (not for 3 years) to have said and made MULTIPLE horrible decisions and say MULTIPLE horrible things to many people.
  What defines 'questionable mental health?' I now carry a loaded .45 caliber handgun EVERYWHERE I go due to the insanity that our culture has reached with 'knock out' games and the not so random psycho who decides because  his/her life sucks they are going to try and F up everyone elses.
   Just as much as you are anti gun, I am pro.....so just how do you decide who's right to bear arms is taken away? FBI background checks are ran on EVERY person who LEGALLY buys a weapon, to get a Conceal Carry there are multiple classes and training sessions. People who acquire their CCW and legally buy weapons are a VERY small percentage of the people who pose a real threat to society.
   

[eric42434224]

People can get killed, paralyzed, and seriously hurt in simple, one on one fist fights.  It happens...I saw it happen once.

[gmillerdrake]

  Multiple guys jumping one guy, a much larger person attacking a much smaller person

Martin: 6'-3" High School Football Player
Zimmerman: 5'-9

Assuming the information provided by witnesses, Zimmerman and then corroborated by police and Doctors due to injuries sustained. Zimmerman was sucker punched and sustained a broken nose which knocked him to the ground. Anyone who's been nailed in the nose understands how disorientating that is. Then Marting is on top of him ramming the back of Martins head into the concrete over and over and over.
  The classes I've taken warn of your gun being used against you. Did Zimmerman put himself in that situation by following Martin? Yes. Did Martin put himself in the situation of ultimately getting shot by beating Martin? Yes. It's a horrible situation.
   I look at it as horrible as it sounds, judging from reading Martins 'tweets', his apparent desire to live some 'tough' life and the fact that he's a teenaged boy who's hormones are all jacked up as any guy could tell you.....Martin was trying to be tough with Zimmerman and maybe to some extent may have been in his 'right' to do so. But once he began to pummel a smaller man and that man felt his life was threatened...which it WAS....that man had every 'right' as given to him by his State as well to take the action he too. 

[El Barto]

There was a recent news story about a middle school girl who was killed in a basic schoolyard fight.  Only two small girls.  All it takes is a good blow to the noggin, be it from a fist or the concrete after going down. 

And I see no reason to question Zimmerman's mental well-being.  He wasn't "on patrol," either.  I believe he was going to the store or something, and noticed what he deemed to be a suspicious person.  I think he fucked up by escalating the situation, but not by shooting the kid once the altercation turned hostile. 

[Ryzee]

Sounds like Zimmerman's got a pretty good case for his defense in a court of law then, yeah?

[antigoon]

I don't think this character assassination stuff should factor in here. Most teenagers do dumb shit on the internet nowadays anyway.

[gmillerdrake]

There was a recent news story about a middle school girl who was killed in a basic schoolyard fight.  Only two small girls.  All it takes is a good blow to the noggin, be it from a fist or the concrete after going down. 

I'm not sure if it has become an issue around the country, but this friggin' 'knock out game' has become pretty popular amongst the kiddos here in StL. The basic premise is a group of kids ambushes' someone/or a couple people and just begins to try and 'knock them out'.
  There has been one case where the guy died, they did that move from 'American History X' on him where they put his head on a curb (after he was unconcious) and them stomped it....just recently a group of kids pummled a homeless man....it was witnessed and they were taken to court but then the witness 'decided' not to testify so they all walked free.....and as they did they laughed at the guy and stll harass him about it to this day.
  There have been many times, as sad as it is, that when I am walking with my wife and 3 young boys at the park, zoo, mall...anywhere, when we walk past or through a little gaggle of teenage kids that my hand subtly clicks off the safety on my .45 and I go on high alert. That is just BS that I even have to have that in my mind...much less that it is a very real possibility that something might happen.

[El Barto]

This is really getting annoying. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I prefer this one:

[ehra]

Apparently the kid on the right in this picture is a completely different Trayvon Martin.

https://twitchy.com/2012/03/25/why-teamdueprocess-is-important-for-justice/

Recognize these two people? If you don’t, we’ll help you out. The man on the left is George Zimmerman, the man accused of murdering the boy on the right, Trayvon Martin. The mainstream media won’t show you these two photos because they convey a message that no one else wants to take into consideration.

Correction, 8:56 pm ET March 25, 2012: We made a mistake. The photo on the right is not of the Trayvon Martin who was shot by Zimmerman. We apologize to our readers and to the Martin family.

https://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/trayvon_martin_no_thats_not_hi.php

If you haven't come across the photo to the right, you probably will in the next day or two. Gross racists and assorted other morons are claiming that it's from the Facebook page of Trayvon Martin, the teenager shot and killed by neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman in Sanford, and that somehow that has bearing on the case.

There is no evidence that the photo is of Trayvon Martin, although there is plenty of evidence against it. Even popular right-wing blogger Dan Riehl, who claimed to be among the first to find the Facebook page, admits that it might not be him: "It doesn't appear to be the same Trayvon Martin. But I'm still not sure. It's still linked."

----

But the "Trayvon Martin" the page belongs to lists his school as Myers Middle School. All of his relatives are listed as living in Savannah, Georgia, where there is a Myers Middle School.

The late Martin, who grew up in Miami Gardens, went to Norland Middle and Highland Oaks Middle schools, and more recently attended Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School.

Trayvon Martin's real Facebook page is here, complete with photos and information clearly depicting him, and updated before the date of his death.

The bogus page probably belongs either to another Trayvon Martin, or to a kid who renamed his page in tribute.

https://www.facebook.com/people/Trayvon-Slimm-Martin/1353307542?sk=wall


I can't get on the facebook page. Don't know if it's because it's down or I'm not logged in.

[El Barto]

The point still stands, and it's interesting to me that the people who confuse two similar looking Trayvon Martins are the grossly racist morons, and not the media for portraying them as they do.

[ehra]

Using the little kid and orange jumpsuit picture is retarded. Confusing a completely different kid that goes to a different school with the one that died because they share the same name and are both black is retarded. The cops not properly investigating the incident when it happened was retarded. The armchair detective work being done by random bloggers that clearly have no clue what they're talking about is retarded. The people that instantly claim Zimmerman got off because of racism are retarded, and the people that there can't be any racism involved because minorities can't be racist are also retarded. Zimmerman and the kid both acted retarded towards the wrong people and now one of them is dead and even if Zimmerman is found to have been completely in the right he's still going to be fucked because people are retarded. Especially Spike Lee.

[Adami]

I heard they're already making this into a movie. Sam Jackson will play Zimmerman, and Paul Dano will play Martin.

[El Barto]

I heard they're already making this into a movie. Sam Jackson will play Zimmerman, and Paul Dano will play Martin.

[AcidLameLTE]

Nice picture of Zbomber

[ZBomber]

Sounds good to me, I am ready to receive an oscar for my performance in what will obviously be the highest grossing film of all time.

[Scheavo]

  The classes I've taken warn of your gun being used against you. Did Zimmerman put himself in that situation by following Martin? Yes. Did Martin put himself in the situation of ultimately getting shot by beating Martin? Yes. It's a horrible situation.

I completely disagree with this. There's no way for Martin to know Zimmerman had a gun, so he didn't put himself in that situation. But once you do see a gun, what the fuck are you supposed to think? I'm sorry, but any reasonable person is going to feel threatened, and Martin was a young kid with a lot of testosterone. Zimmerman made this situation when he decided to carry a gun, which makes him responsible for the results. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he probably would've gotten his ass kicked, Martin probably would've ran. Maybe would've gotten arrested (police were already on the way anyways), or there'd have been a search for Martin, and maybe he would've gotten arrested then, or maybe he gets away. Either way, no one's dead. It's Zimmerman's gun, it's Zimmerman's actions which provoked the event, and so it's Zimmerman's responsibility for what happened.

That's the positive evidence on the table. All the other details are pertinent to what kind of punishment Zimmerman should receive, but they are not relevant to his guilt.

[Adami]

  The classes I've taken warn of your gun being used against you. Did Zimmerman put himself in that situation by following Martin? Yes. Did Martin put himself in the situation of ultimately getting shot by beating Martin? Yes. It's a horrible situation.

I completely disagree with this. There's no way for Martin to know Zimmerman had a gun, so he didn't put himself in that situation. But once you do see a gun, what the fuck are you supposed to think? I'm sorry, but any reasonable person is going to feel threatened, and Martin was a young kid with a lot of testosterone. Zimmerman made this situation when he decided to carry a gun, which makes him responsible for the results. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he probably would've gotten his ass kicked, Martin probably would've ran. Maybe would've gotten arrested (police were already on the way anyways), or there'd have been a search for Martin, and maybe he would've gotten arrested then, or maybe he gets away. Either way, no one's dead. It's Martin's gun, it's Martin's actions which provoked the event, and so it's Martin's responsibility for what happened.

That's the positive evidence on the table. All the other details are pertinent to what kind of punishment Zimmerman should receive, but they are not relevant to his guilt.

I think you mixed up the names a bit near the end. Either that or you lost me.

[Scheavo]

  The classes I've taken warn of your gun being used against you. Did Zimmerman put himself in that situation by following Martin? Yes. Did Martin put himself in the situation of ultimately getting shot by beating Martin? Yes. It's a horrible situation.

I completely disagree with this. There's no way for Martin to know Zimmerman had a gun, so he didn't put himself in that situation. But once you do see a gun, what the fuck are you supposed to think? I'm sorry, but any reasonable person is going to feel threatened, and Martin was a young kid with a lot of testosterone. Zimmerman made this situation when he decided to carry a gun, which makes him responsible for the results. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he probably would've gotten his ass kicked, Martin probably would've ran. Maybe would've gotten arrested (police were already on the way anyways), or there'd have been a search for Martin, and maybe he would've gotten arrested then, or maybe he gets away. Either way, no one's dead. It's Martin's gun, it's Martin's actions which provoked the event, and so it's Martin's responsibility for what happened.

That's the positive evidence on the table. All the other details are pertinent to what kind of punishment Zimmerman should receive, but they are not relevant to his guilt.

I think you mixed up the names a bit near the end. Either that or you lost me.

D'oh!

[El Barto]

  The classes I've taken warn of your gun being used against you. Did Zimmerman put himself in that situation by following Martin? Yes. Did Martin put himself in the situation of ultimately getting shot by beating Martin? Yes. It's a horrible situation.

I completely disagree with this. There's no way for Martin to know Zimmerman had a gun, so he didn't put himself in that situation. But once you do see a gun, what the fuck are you supposed to think? I'm sorry, but any reasonable person is going to feel threatened, and Martin was a young kid with a lot of testosterone. Zimmerman made this situation when he decided to carry a gun, which makes him responsible for the results. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he probably would've gotten his ass kicked, Martin probably would've ran. Maybe would've gotten arrested (police were already on the way anyways), or there'd have been a search for Martin, and maybe he would've gotten arrested then, or maybe he gets away. Either way, no one's dead. It's Zimmerman's gun, it's Zimmerman's actions which provoked the event, and so it's Zimmerman's responsibility for what happened.

That's the positive evidence on the table. All the other details are pertinent to what kind of punishment Zimmerman should receive, but they are not relevant to his guilt.

This is where you and I part company.  Zimmerman made the situation when he gave chase; not by carrying the weapon.  Beyond that, I don't have much of a problem with his possession or use of a weapon.