Author Topic: Trayvon Martin  (Read 47846 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #315 on: April 11, 2012, 01:03:57 PM »
Has anyone noticed the media's shift in the photos they are using. Currently all you are seeing is the photo of Zimmerman in a tie instead of the jump suit.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #316 on: April 11, 2012, 01:07:30 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html

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Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

If true, that's good news.
Only if there is actual 'evidence' against him other than has been presented and she isn't merely trying to appease the Martin supporters due to political and social pressure. There is no way GZ gets a fair trial in his county or state for that matter.

Has anyone noticed the media's shift in the photos they are using. Currently all you are seeing is the photo of Zimmerman in a tie instead of the jump suit.

That's because they know they've succeeded in painting the picture they wanted painted.....and now they can claim "well we did post a recent picture" if accused of being a part of setting the public against GZ by using that mug shot picture from 5 years ago.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #317 on: April 11, 2012, 01:10:38 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html

Quote
Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

If true, that's good news.
Only if there is actual 'evidence' against him other than has been presented and she isn't merely trying to appease the Martin supporters due to political and social pressure. There is no way GZ gets a fair trial in his county or state for that matter.
I disagree.  I suspect they're counting on him getting a fair trial.  If they no-bill him there'll be automatic unrest. If they let a jury find him not-guilty, there will be possible unrest.  If I'm the prosecutor and I know that he'll never get convicted anyway (which is why they declined to prosecute him the first time), then I'd certainly consider a show trial to possibly stave off civil unrest.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #318 on: April 11, 2012, 01:13:24 PM »
Not a legal analyst, but how does SYG apply here?  It's not really standing your ground if you start the confrontation.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #319 on: April 11, 2012, 01:16:49 PM »
Not a legal analyst, but how does SYG apply here?  It's not really standing your ground if you start the confrontation.
A: we don't know who started the confrontation.
B: it actually is possible to start the confrontation and still be able to claim SD.  Technically, you can start a fight, and then attempt to disengage.  If your adversary continues to escalate the situation after you're trying to disengage, you're back into self defense country. 
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #320 on: April 11, 2012, 01:20:02 PM »
Not a legal analyst, but how does SYG apply here?  It's not really standing your ground if you start the confrontation.
Well that's the issue really. If GZ's account is accurate and is what happened then he didn't start the confrontation. The moment he began to head back to his vehicle and 'pursuit' that he had initiated ended. He claims that Martin then came out of hidind....and subsequently after whatever events took place....was shot. Martin would have been the one 'confronting' in that case.
  No one really knows what happened...it's impossible to know without further evidence. Maybe she has some. But if she doesn't, then I don't see how he can be convicted. But then again...he'd make a nice sacrificial offering to the crowd that's screaming murder.

I disagree.  I suspect they're counting on him getting a fair trial.  If they no-bill him there'll be automatic unrest. If they let a jury find him not-guilty, there will be possible unrest.  If I'm the prosecutor and I know that he'll never get convicted anyway (which is why they declined to prosecute him the first time), then I'd certainly consider a show trial to possibly stave off civil unrest.
I don't know. I just think that unless she produces some further evidence GZ is being charged merely to satisfy the witch hunt...that she's buckling to social and political pressure. It wouldn't be the first or last time that happened....
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #321 on: April 11, 2012, 01:25:07 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html

Quote
Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

If true, that's good news.
Only if there is actual 'evidence' against him other than has been presented and she isn't merely trying to appease the Martin supporters due to political and social pressure. There is no way GZ gets a fair trial in his county or state for that matter.

Has anyone noticed the media's shift in the photos they are using. Currently all you are seeing is the photo of Zimmerman in a tie instead of the jump suit.

That's because they know they've succeeded in painting the picture they wanted painted.....and now they can claim "well we did post a recent picture" if accused of being a part of setting the public against GZ by using that mug shot picture from 5 years ago.

A special investigator isn't going to come into the case, and not make charges without evidence. From what we all know bout the case (the 911 tape), there's more than enough evidence to make Zimmerman culpable of something. The reason he wasn't charged, I believe, wasn't because prosectuors or the police felt that was right, but only becuase they couldn't overcome the self-defense claims, and the SYG law.

Combining those two facts, and I don't see how Zimmerman facing charges, of probably manslaughter, could possibly be a bad thing. It's not like we're convicting him, we're putting him on trial.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #322 on: April 11, 2012, 01:29:17 PM »
CNN is now reporting that that prosecutor is going to hold a press conference at 6pm EDT today

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #323 on: April 11, 2012, 01:35:49 PM »
I disagree.  I suspect they're counting on him getting a fair trial.  If they no-bill him there'll be automatic unrest. If they let a jury find him not-guilty, there will be possible unrest.  If I'm the prosecutor and I know that he'll never get convicted anyway (which is why they declined to prosecute him the first time), then I'd certainly consider a show trial to possibly stave off civil unrest.
I don't know. I just think that unless she produces some further evidence GZ is being charged merely to satisfy the witch hunt...that she's buckling to social and political pressure. It wouldn't be the first or last time that happened....
And while I don't generally approve of buckling to social pressure, it's very definitely the pragmatic approach here.  If GZ were clearly innocent, I'd feel a bit worse about it, but he definitely seems to bear some culpability here, so his further involvement in a preceding which will invariably exonerate him doesn't' bother me too much. 
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #324 on: April 11, 2012, 01:39:57 PM »
I don't see how we can possibly know whether or not a trial will "invariably exonerate" anyone at this point.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #325 on: April 11, 2012, 01:41:48 PM »
I believe, wasn't because prosectuors or the police felt that was right, but only becuase they couldn't overcome the self-defense claims, and the SYG law.

Combining those two facts, and I don't see how Zimmerman facing charges, of probably manslaughter, could possibly be a bad thing. It's not like we're convicting him, we're putting him on trial.
I understand that and if there is further evidence that points to the possibility of him being guilty of manslaughter or murder then he needs to face trial. But, if the evidence remains the same and there is 'nothing new' then the only thing that has changed is the political and social pressures to "right a supposed wrong". If there is nothing new to add then by Floridas existing law he's legally done nothing wrong and is facing the chance of getting convicted for no other reason other than public outcry and race baiting activists succeeding in thier mission.
   
And while I don't generally approve of buckling to social pressure, it's very definitely the pragmatic approach here.  If GZ were clearly innocent, I'd feel a bit worse about it, but he definitely seems to bear some culpability here, so his further involvement in a preceding which will invariably exonerate him doesn't' bother me too much. 
I agree with this, mostly. It is a pragmatic and logical and the 'correct' way to handle this and should have been done in the first place. I just think that the ONLY reason it's even being done now is because of the social and political pressure.
 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #326 on: April 11, 2012, 01:48:15 PM »
I disagree.  I suspect they're counting on him getting a fair trial.  If they no-bill him there'll be automatic unrest. If they let a jury find him not-guilty, there will be possible unrest.  If I'm the prosecutor and I know that he'll never get convicted anyway (which is why they declined to prosecute him the first time), then I'd certainly consider a show trial to possibly stave off civil unrest.
I don't know. I just think that unless she produces some further evidence GZ is being charged merely to satisfy the witch hunt...that she's buckling to social and political pressure. It wouldn't be the first or last time that happened....
And while I don't generally approve of buckling to social pressure, it's very definitely the pragmatic approach here.  If GZ were clearly innocent, I'd feel a bit worse about it, but he definitely seems to bear some culpability here, so his further involvement in a preceding which will invariably exonerate him doesn't' bother me too much.

So here's where my knowledge of our legal system stops: so say Zimmerman is charged with manslaughter, but the jury feels that though Zimmerman deserves some punishment, manslaughter isn't the answer. What powers do they have in this case? Must they either agree or disagree to the charges present, or can they determine something different? I feel as if they don't have options on the matter, which strikes me as ideologically unsound.

Quote
I understand that and if there is further evidence that points to the possibility of him being guilty of manslaughter or murder then he needs to face trial. But, if the evidence remains the same and there is 'nothing new' then the only thing that has changed is the political and social pressures to "right a supposed wrong". If there is nothing new to add then by Floridas existing law he's legally done nothing wrong and is facing the chance of getting convicted for no other reason other than public outcry and race baiting activists succeeding in thier mission.

What I don't think you're getting, is that what Zimmerman did could be illegal according to Florida State Law, just that the SYG law makes it impossible to prove responsibility. That would mean the reason he wasn't charged isn't because of lack of evidence, of the events on the ground, but the prosecutor not feeling he can get a charge to land. A new prosecutor could look at the evidence already available, determine that Zimmerman should be charged, and feel that there's enough evidence to convict / feels they can make the charges stick. Remember, the police wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, and their initial take is probably the most accurate one.

Or, you could say that if Trayvon had been someone more well known, someone with connections in the first place, there would have been charges earlier anyways. Public pressure could simply have made it so what should have be done is actually done, instead of the case being let fall through the cracks becuase it's just another black kid who god shot - which is where racism can certainly come into play in the American legal system.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #327 on: April 11, 2012, 02:17:04 PM »
I disagree.  I suspect they're counting on him getting a fair trial.  If they no-bill him there'll be automatic unrest. If they let a jury find him not-guilty, there will be possible unrest.  If I'm the prosecutor and I know that he'll never get convicted anyway (which is why they declined to prosecute him the first time), then I'd certainly consider a show trial to possibly stave off civil unrest.
I don't know. I just think that unless she produces some further evidence GZ is being charged merely to satisfy the witch hunt...that she's buckling to social and political pressure. It wouldn't be the first or last time that happened....
And while I don't generally approve of buckling to social pressure, it's very definitely the pragmatic approach here.  If GZ were clearly innocent, I'd feel a bit worse about it, but he definitely seems to bear some culpability here, so his further involvement in a preceding which will invariably exonerate him doesn't' bother me too much.

So here's where my knowledge of our legal system stops: so say Zimmerman is charged with manslaughter, but the jury feels that though Zimmerman deserves some punishment, manslaughter isn't the answer. What powers do they have in this case? Must they either agree or disagree to the charges present, or can they determ
My understanding of it (and this is probably more L.A. Law than anything else) is that a jury can only find him guilty or not guilty of the charges that are presented to them, and those are determined by the prosecutor's office.  I gather that it's customary to give them several options, so that they'll at least give him something.  A different strategic approach would be to make it all or nothing, presumably so that a jury's choices are to let him go scot-free or mainline him.

This is really more Bosk's territory.  I'm not certain how jury charging really works, but this is what I've gathered.  What I'm unclear on is whether or not the judge can provide alternatives that the prosecutors didn't.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #328 on: April 11, 2012, 02:21:45 PM »
Your description fits my loose understanding of it, I guess I just have problems with letting someone go free becuase the wrong charges were filed, or becuase there isn't an appropriate law on the books to fit the crime. It's part of why we have trial by juries, if you ask me.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #329 on: April 11, 2012, 04:09:57 PM »
Whoa, 2nd degree murder.

I wonder if Barto and Scheavo will now debate if Zimmerman should be strip-searched...  :corn
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #330 on: April 11, 2012, 04:44:04 PM »
I doubt they'll hold him, so no on the strip search.

She must know something we don't. 
Quote
(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
There's certainly nothing we know that would point to a depraved indifference of human life.  She's completely discounting any possibility that this was self defense.  Kinda scratching my head at this one.

edit: upon further reflection, this might be the all or nothing approach I alluded to earlier.   She might be charging him with something that she knows won't stick so-as to deflate the situation. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #331 on: April 11, 2012, 05:58:01 PM »
She must know something we don't. 
Quote
(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
There's certainly nothing we know that would point to a depraved indifference of human life.  She's completely discounting any possibility that this was self defense.  Kinda scratching my head at this one.

edit: upon further reflection, this might be the all or nothing approach I alluded to earlier.   She might be charging him with something that she knows won't stick so-as to deflate the situation.

Ya, my first response was she must have found something. We don't know anything about Trayvon's body, and that can hold a treasure trove of information that's relevant to this case. Under the scenario where there wasn't any evidence Trayvon was involved in a fight, than this situation definitely doesn't become one of self-defense. The bullet trajectory itself could be relevant. Eye-witness and testimonial evidence could also go against him, we don't know the details of those interviews.

So Bosk, can Zimmerman still be convicted of manslaughter in this scenario, or must be in be second degree murder? Becomes easier to ask the question now that there''s a direct example. Of course, I'm not saying he should be convicted, I'm just wondering what the legal possibilities are.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #332 on: April 11, 2012, 08:17:27 PM »
Looks like I was completely wrong.  That scenario involves what's known as a lesser included offense.  That refers to a less serious crime which is necessarily a component of the greater one. 

Quote
A lesser included offense, in criminal law, is a crime for which all of the elements necessary to impose liability are also elements found in a more serious crime.

For example, the common law crime of larceny requires the taking and carrying away of tangible property from another person, with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of that property. Robbery, under the common law, requires all of the same elements, plus the use of force or intimidation to accomplish the taking. Therefore, larceny is a lesser included offense in the offense of robbery, as every robbery includes a larceny as part of the crime. Assault is also a lesser included offense of robbery, just as battery is necessarily a lesser included offense to murder, and false imprisonment is usually a lesser included offense to kidnapping.

As for informing the jury of that option, it would seem that judge decides whether or not it happens, and that's largely based on the wants of the lawyers (capital cases are an exception).  The prosecutor might want an included lesser offense as an option to hedge his bet.  The defendant might raise a defense which includes the lesser included offense.  Conversely, the defense might want no LIO presented forcing the jury to go all or nothing.  The judge, as the arbitrator of the law, decides which happens. 
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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #333 on: April 11, 2012, 08:20:00 PM »
He looks better than I thought he would. Here is the booking photo from today

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #334 on: April 11, 2012, 09:02:04 PM »
Looks like I was completely wrong.  That scenario involves what's known as a lesser included offense.  That refers to a less serious crime which is necessarily a component of the greater one. 

Quote
A lesser included offense, in criminal law, is a crime for which all of the elements necessary to impose liability are also elements found in a more serious crime.

For example, the common law crime of larceny requires the taking and carrying away of tangible property from another person, with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of that property. Robbery, under the common law, requires all of the same elements, plus the use of force or intimidation to accomplish the taking. Therefore, larceny is a lesser included offense in the offense of robbery, as every robbery includes a larceny as part of the crime. Assault is also a lesser included offense of robbery, just as battery is necessarily a lesser included offense to murder, and false imprisonment is usually a lesser included offense to kidnapping.

As for informing the jury of that option, it would seem that judge decides whether or not it happens, and that's largely based on the wants of the lawyers (capital cases are an exception).  The prosecutor might want an included lesser offense as an option to hedge his bet.  The defendant might raise a defense which includes the lesser included offense.  Conversely, the defense might want no LIO presented forcing the jury to go all or nothing.  The judge, as the arbitrator of the law, decides which happens.

Well that certainly makes sense. Thanks for the research.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #335 on: April 12, 2012, 08:11:30 AM »
So, I wonder what his bail will be set at?  2nd Degree Murder charge?  I don't see them setting his bail at less than 7 figures.

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #336 on: April 12, 2012, 08:22:00 AM »
So, I wonder what his bail will be set at?  2nd Degree Murder charge?  I don't see them setting his bail at less than 7 figures.
Some talking heads on the radio yesterday said that the amount of bail requested would indicate what type of case they think they have against him. That if they believed he were a danger to others or himself that it'd be something astronomical....I don't know. I mean, if the guy wanted to 'flee' he'd have certainly done it by now. But on the other hand if I were him given the amount of hatred being spewed his way and the ridiculous death contracts being offered by certain groups...I'd stay in custody, take the three meals a day and protection. Even if he gets bail....that's what he'll be doing anyway so why not do it on the State's dime?
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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #337 on: April 12, 2012, 08:32:18 AM »
So, I wonder what his bail will be set at?  2nd Degree Murder charge?  I don't see them setting his bail at less than 7 figures.
Some talking heads on the radio yesterday said that the amount of bail requested would indicate what type of case they think they have against him. That if they believed he were a danger to others or himself that it'd be something astronomical....I don't know. I mean, if the guy wanted to 'flee' he'd have certainly done it by now. But on the other hand if I were him given the amount of hatred being spewed his way and the ridiculous death contracts being offered by certain groups...I'd stay in custody, take the three meals a day and protection. Even if he gets bail....that's what he'll be doing anyway so why not do it on the State's dime?

Yeah, I expect his bail to be low, but I'd just stay behind closed doors for awhile.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #338 on: April 12, 2012, 09:18:58 AM »
So Bosk, can Zimmerman still be convicted of manslaughter in this scenario, or must be in be second degree murder? Becomes easier to ask the question now that there''s a direct example. Of course, I'm not saying he should be convicted, I'm just wondering what the legal possibilities are.

Sorry, I meant to respond to this yesterday, and I got sidetracked by a few phone calls right before I left the office.  Barto nailed it in referencing the "lesser included offense" doctrine.   But what I cannot remember and am not sure about how it is applied from state to state is how that actually plays out in practice.  (remember, I am not a criminal lawyer)  A believe (but am not 100% certain) that if the lesser included offense is not initially pled by the prosecution, that it is off the table.  Let me illustrate it this way in very simple, straightforward terms:

Without worrying about what the elements are, let's say you have to prove elements 1, 2, 3, and 4 to establish murder2.  Of those, if you prove 1, 2, and 3, you have established manslaughter regardless of whether or not you prove 4.  So here's how it works.  The jury goes back to deliberate and is given jury instructions that list those 4 elements.  They jury must find that for each and every one of those elements, there is enough evidence to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt.  If reasonable doubt exists as to any element, there is no conviction.  But if the jury finds that 1, 2, 3, and 4 are established beyond a reasonable doubt, they come back and tell the judge that they find the defendant is guilty of man2.  What that means, according to the lesser included offense doctrine, is that they don't even need to reach a verdict as to manslaughter, because they had to have found that the 3 elements were already established in reaching their verdict on murder2.  BUT, as a practical matter, there are other legal doctrines that come into play that say if a defendant is convicted of the greater crime, he is sentenced according to that conviction and the lesser one essentially just gets merged or absorbed into that.  So, for instance, if murder2 carries 20 years and manslaughter carries 5 (hypothetically), you will get 20 years, not 25.

But it doesn't work the way you were asking, Scheavo.  At least, not precisely.  If murder2 is the only charge, if the jury acquits a defendant, a judge does not know which elements the jury found established and which ones they didn't, so he cannot on his own say that the lesser included offense is established.  The jury may have found 1 and 2, but not 3 and 4.  They may have found 1, 2, and 3, but not 4.  Or they may have found none established.  The judge doesn't know.  So, no, the judge cannot impose a sentence based on a lesser included offense that the jury did not convict on, and the jury cannot convict on a lesser included offense that was not pled.

HOWEVER, as a practical matter in murder cases, that is usually taken care of BEFORE TRIAL.  If the prosecution pleads ONLY murder2, that is a mistake on their part.  They aren't really supposed to take an "all-or-nothing" approach when there is a middle ground available.  So they are supposed to also plead manslaughter.  The system is designed that way to protect the interests of both the defendant AND the state.  It protects the state because you may otherwise have a guilty defendant walk simply because the prosecution aimed too high and did not include a lesser offense, and the jury found that the evidence fell just short of what was actually charged.  (e.g., if Zimmerman should be guilty of manslaughter, but it isn't pled, and the jury lets him walk because there just isn't quite enough for murder2)  Conversely, it protects the defendant who might be in a situation where he should be guilty of a lesser offense that isn't pled, but not of the greater offense, and you have a jury that says, "well, even though there isn't quite enough evidence to convict of murder2, it's obvious he's guilty of something, and we can't just let him walk, so since murder2 is our only option, that's what he gets."  So, usually, the prosecutor's office takes care of making sure the lesser offense is pled.  And if they don't, I believe (but am not certain, and it may vary considerably from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) the judge will get it added BEFORE trial so that the jury has the option.



*And please take careful note of my disclaimers.  People sometimes assume lawyers must know everything about every kind of law, but that isn't the case.  I am trying to share what level of knowledge I have while also being quick to point out that there are gaps in my knowledge because this is an area that is far outside of my practice.  Both the substantive law and the procedure are very, very different than what I do and, believe it or not, MOST of the practical application of the procedure is not something that is taught in law school.  It is something you pick up when you start working in a given area.  So, just want to point out that I am not claiming to be a legal know-it-all. 
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #339 on: April 12, 2012, 09:28:32 AM »
I just read that even before this case will go to trial, during the evidentiary hearing in which Corey will need to prove that Martin’s death was caused by a criminal act of Zimmerman, and that the act was “demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life."
  Zimmerman will have to present a "preponderance of evidence" that he acted in self-defense, which means he will have to show he had a "reasonable belief" that such force was necessary.....
I have a hard time believing that a judge will not allow this to go to trial, that he/she would end it right off by saying Zimmerman acted in self defense. Unless the evidence isn't there for the prosecution or is there for Zimmerman.
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #340 on: April 12, 2012, 11:32:56 AM »
I'm not a legal expert by any means, but when I saw murder 2 my first thought was the sever charge will placate the activist community, but likely hard to get a conviction for, since they have to prove GZ acted with malice, which I think would be difficult to prove since he was on 911 to get police to check out TM before everything went down.  It seems like a manslaughter is the more appropriate charge, and a conviction on that would be easier to get I would think.
     

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #341 on: April 12, 2012, 11:42:14 AM »
Manslaughter is an "unintended" killing.  That doesn't work here.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #342 on: April 12, 2012, 11:45:11 AM »
I sort of gathered from my brief bit of research that the defense could essentially give up on the components of a lesser included offense and fight only the specific components of the greater charge, which would basically force the LIO into play. I suppose it's possible that's only an option if the prosecution offers it up, but that hardly seems fair.

It does seem to me that the lesser included offenses have all been well established by now.  In this example, they've almost certainly addressed countless times what the components of manslaughter vs murder are, so I don't see how there could really be much wiggle room going in. 

What I know is that there have been plenty of cases and appeals addressing whether or not the judge is obligated to inform the jury of these options, and in most instances he's not. 


Manslaughter is an "unintended" killing.  That doesn't work here.
No, it's just a  killing that's less culpable than murder.  That's why there's the distinction between voluntary and involuntary manslaugher.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #343 on: April 12, 2012, 11:50:08 AM »
*And please take careful note of my disclaimers.  People sometimes assume lawyers must know everything about every kind of law, but that isn't the case.  I am trying to share what level of knowledge I have while also being quick to point out that there are gaps in my knowledge because this is an area that is far outside of my practice.  Both the substantive law and the procedure are very, very different than what I do and, believe it or not, MOST of the practical application of the procedure is not something that is taught in law school.  It is something you pick up when you start working in a given area.  So, just want to point out that I am not claiming to be a legal know-it-all.

Well thanks for the answer. It was helpful. The reasons in this last paragraph are actually why I have such a hard time with this stuff. There's the same logic behind it, but exactly how it plays out is due more to practice and tradition, and that's something I have a hard time remembering.

Manslaughter is an "unintended" killing.  That doesn't work here.

Well, not quite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

Quote
In Florida, manslaughter, defined as: The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder

"culpable negligence" sounds close to what I feel Zimmerman did wrong.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #344 on: April 12, 2012, 11:59:15 AM »
She might be charging him with something that she knows won't stick so-as to deflate the situation.

Here's why I don't thinmk that would work:

https://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-12/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-charged-jail-20120412_1_face-murder-charges-today-show-accident

Quote
This morning, when she was asked what she would like to say to Zimmerman, Fulton said on The Today Show that she wants an apology from him.

"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion about what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."

Fulton said even if Zimmerman is found not guilty, the arrest achieves the goal of their campaign to raise awareness and bring him to justice.

Like I said earlier, most of the outrage was over the fact that he hadn't been charged. There are some elements out there who are angry that he's not convicted or dead by now, but those are a small minority. I think the act of arrested Zimmerman does a lot to dissuade the anger the black community had over the incident, and it definitly get's rid of what angered me about the case.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #345 on: April 12, 2012, 12:10:46 PM »
His mom seems to be taking a very reasonable attitude towards the situation.  But as a wise man once said, a person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals.  I have little faith that her sensibility would be the prevailing attitude of the angry mob. 
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #346 on: April 12, 2012, 12:31:09 PM »
His mom seems to be taking a very reasonable attitude towards the situation.  But as a wise man once said, a person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals.  I have little faith that her sensibility would be the prevailing attitude of the angry mob.

Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #347 on: April 12, 2012, 12:54:06 PM »
Quote
This morning, when she was asked what she would like to say to Zimmerman, Fulton said on The Today Show that she wants an apology from him.

"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion about what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."

Fulton said even if Zimmerman is found not guilty, the arrest achieves the goal of their campaign to raise awareness and bring him to justice.

Like I said earlier, most of the outrage was over the fact that he hadn't been charged. There are some elements out there who are angry that he's not convicted or dead by now, but those are a small minority. I think the act of arrested Zimmerman does a lot to dissuade the anger the black community had over the incident, and it definitly get's rid of what angered me about the case.

I admire her attitude and approach.  But there is a bit practical problem for Zimmerman with the apology issue.  Since he is now being charged, there's the whole "anything you can can and will be used against you in a court of law" thing.  I.e., anything that he says can potentially be put in front of a jury to incriminate him, or to at least be spun so that it looks incriminating (e.g., "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you should all ask yourselves:  why would the defendant apologize if he had done nothing wrong?").  Of course, the opposite is also true.  The defense can argue, "look, it wasn't premeditated, and it wasn't a hate crime.  They guy even apologized.  He's not the demon the prosecution are making him out to be."  But my point is simply that, because of the danger of his statements being used against him, any apology he makes will likely be scripted and will be very short and preemptively scrubbed by his lawyers of anything that could be spun to paint him in a negative light.  So this presents a problem for Zimmerman, because if he issues such an apology, it is likely to sound insincere, which could just whip up some people even more than if he keeps his mouth shut.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #348 on: April 12, 2012, 01:15:58 PM »
I didn't mean to highlight on the apology, or what could actually result of the apology, or if Zimmerman should apologize. I simply wanted to point out her position, as the mother of the child killed.

She also apparently tried to restate her statement, probably because of the prosecutor. Her statements get into the situation like Zimmerman's apology did. I could see the defense wanting to use this statement (if they legally can, but since it's public I believe it can be?) to try and highlight the "accidental" nature.

Offline slycordinator

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #349 on: April 12, 2012, 02:00:53 PM »
This is a bit off-topic but the whole "anything you say can be used against you" line in Miranda warnings doesn't include another very important point that those statements, AFAIK, *can't* be used *for* you.

See, police testimony about what you said to them that they can't personally verify is hearsay but there's an exemption for statements that are against your own interest. So when you try to have them testify on stuff that you said that benefit you are thrown out because there is no exemption for hearsay statements that are in your own interest.