Trayvon Martin

[gmillerdrake]

If you suspect someone of something, is there anything they can do that won't be suspicious?

Yes.  When asked what they are doing here, they respond, "Oh, Hi there.  Yeah, Im Eric Smith, I live 2 streets over on Holly Lane.  Have a good day!:
Saying, "You got a problem?", or running will cause more suspicion.

So to answer your question, there are certainly things that can be done that wont be suspicious, and there are mnay things that can be done to STOP the suspicion

Sure, when the person asking you what you're doing there is a cop.  What business is it of some other random guy on the street what you are doing, or where you live?

You trying to tell me that if I saw a guy walking through my neighbors yard, dressed 'suspiciously' knowing that my subdivision had been hit by a string of burglaries that I can't walk over to that guy and ask him who he is and what he is doing? I have every right to do that Officer or not....and I'd expect my neighbors to do the same.
  And you know....yes Martin WAS dressed suspiciously. It sucks to say that 'stereotype' for black males is there....and it sucks even more to say that it's there for a statistical reason....not because whitey hates blacks. I'm sorry that a black man walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie is 'suspicious'.....but it is. Plain and simple. Doesn't make me a racist for thinking that......but it isn 't some mass conspiracy that makes that type of garb 'suspicious'......it's suspicious for a reason. 

[bosk1]

If you suspect someone of something, is there anything they can do that won't be suspicious?

Yes.  When asked what they are doing here, they respond, "Oh, Hi there.  Yeah, Im Eric Smith, I live 2 streets over on Holly Lane.  Have a good day!:
Saying, "You got a problem?", or running will cause more suspicion.

So to answer your question, there are certainly things that can be done that wont be suspicious, and there are mnay things that can be done to STOP the suspicion

Sure, when the person asking you what you're doing there is a cop.  What business is it of some other random guy on the street what you are doing, or where you live?

You trying to tell me that if I saw a guy walking through my neighbors yard, dressed 'suspiciously' knowing that my subdivision had been hit by a string of burglaries that I can't walk over to that guy and ask him who he is and what he is doing? I have every right to do that Officer or not....and I'd expect my neighbors to do the same.
  And you know....yes Martin WAS dressed suspiciously. It sucks to say that 'stereotype' for black males is there....and it sucks even more to say that it's there for a statistical reason....not because whitey hates blacks. I'm sorry that a black man walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie is 'suspicious'.....but it is. Plain and simple. Doesn't make me a racist for thinking that......but it isn 't some mass conspiracy that makes that type of garb 'suspicious'......it's suspicious for a reason. 

I don't think Black has anything to do with it.  IMO, a young man of any race walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie is "suspicious" in a lot of contexts, but race is not really a factor that I think should factor in.  I would consider a White young man in that same situation "suspicious," whereas if you said a Black man walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie while taking out the trash to not be suspicious in the least.

[gmillerdrake]

If you suspect someone of something, is there anything they can do that won't be suspicious?

Yes.  When asked what they are doing here, they respond, "Oh, Hi there.  Yeah, Im Eric Smith, I live 2 streets over on Holly Lane.  Have a good day!:
Saying, "You got a problem?", or running will cause more suspicion.

So to answer your question, there are certainly things that can be done that wont be suspicious, and there are mnay things that can be done to STOP the suspicion

Sure, when the person asking you what you're doing there is a cop.  What business is it of some other random guy on the street what you are doing, or where you live?

You trying to tell me that if I saw a guy walking through my neighbors yard, dressed 'suspiciously' knowing that my subdivision had been hit by a string of burglaries that I can't walk over to that guy and ask him who he is and what he is doing? I have every right to do that Officer or not....and I'd expect my neighbors to do the same.
  And you know....yes Martin WAS dressed suspiciously. It sucks to say that 'stereotype' for black males is there....and it sucks even more to say that it's there for a statistical reason....not because whitey hates blacks. I'm sorry that a black man walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie is 'suspicious'.....but it is. Plain and simple. Doesn't make me a racist for thinking that......but it isn 't some mass conspiracy that makes that type of garb 'suspicious'......it's suspicious for a reason. 

I don't think Black has anything to do with it.  IMO, a young man of any race walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie is "suspicious" in a lot of contexts, but race is not really a factor that I think should factor in.  I would consider a White young man in that same situation "suspicious," whereas if you said a Black man walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie while taking out the trash to not be suspicious in the least.

Yeah you're right about that. I personally would deem anyone in a hoodie darting between homes at night 'suspicious'. Could be kids just playing....but when confronted they could explain that or what they were doing instead of running or whatever and compounding that suspicion.

[antigoon]

So, was Trayvon trespassing or was he still on public property while "in between homes?"

[eric42434224]

So, was Trayvon trespassing or was he still on public property while "in between homes?"

Moot IMO from the viewpoint of a resident.  You can be acting suspicious regardless of property ownership.  Maybe there is a utility easement that is owned by the city in between houses...it doesnt mean you belong there, and would still be considered suspicious. 

It may be a factor in a legal proceeding if he was charged with something, but it doesnt negate suspicious behavoir.  You can have suspicious behavoir by a person on his very own property.  I mean, the guy can be in his own home, and his actions can still certainly be suspicious, right?

[gmillerdrake]

So, was Trayvon trespassing or was he still on public property while "in between homes?"

I don't know. I know that if you are on someones property without thier permission it is trespassing, and in Missouri under the 'Castle Doctrine' one could legally shoot in self defense on thier property i.e...home, car, boat, yard....and there is an extension to that law if you've been asked to care for someone's home or property...the same laws apply as if it were 'your' property.
  Assuming that the 'yards' of the condos were the property of the owners and not 'common ground' then I'd say he was trespassing. Either way, tresspassing or not.... given the history of break ins and the heightened alert the neighborhood watch was apparently on....I don't fault Zimmerman one bit for wanting to find out what Martin was up to. As was mentioned earlier..all it would have taken was a 'I'm staying at such and such address, Zimmerman either follows him to verify that or hand the info. over to the police and they can. End of story. 'Something' happened that we will probably never know for sure that set those horrible events in motion. For reasons I've explained 100x in this thread already..I'll take Zimmermans word of the account until / unless some other evidence comes in to play to discount it. As of yet, none has.

[Ryzee]

If you suspect someone of something, is there anything they can do that won't be suspicious?

Yes.  When asked what they are doing here, they respond, "Oh, Hi there.  Yeah, Im Eric Smith, I live 2 streets over on Holly Lane.  Have a good day!:
Saying, "You got a problem?", or running will cause more suspicion.

So to answer your question, there are certainly things that can be done that wont be suspicious, and there are mnay things that can be done to STOP the suspicion

Sure, when the person asking you what you're doing there is a cop.  What business is it of some other random guy on the street what you are doing, or where you live?

You trying to tell me that if I saw a guy walking through my neighbors yard, dressed 'suspiciously' knowing that my subdivision had been hit by a string of burglaries that I can't walk over to that guy and ask him who he is and what he is doing? I have every right to do that Officer or not....and I'd expect my neighbors to do the same.
  And you know....yes Martin WAS dressed suspiciously. It sucks to say that 'stereotype' for black males is there....and it sucks even more to say that it's there for a statistical reason....not because whitey hates blacks. I'm sorry that a black man walking at night, in between homes, dressed in a hoodie is 'suspicious'.....but it is. Plain and simple. Doesn't make me a racist for thinking that......but it isn 't some mass conspiracy that makes that type of garb 'suspicious'......it's suspicious for a reason.

No, I'm not trying to tell you that.  Not sure how you got that from what I said.  You can walk over to that guy and say whatever you want.  I'm just saying if you're just some guy from the neighboorhood who comes over to him saying "hey man what are you doing," which is within your rights, it is within his rights to say "fuck you, mind your own business."

You seem to be approaching all of this from the mindset that this kid was prowling around the neighboorhood, when most reports I've read (including the "what we do & don't know" one that Barto posted a while back) indicate that this kid was walking near houses in an attempt to get out of the rain.  And he was on his cellphone headset the whole time talking w/ his girlfriend, who should be able to provide an account of what this kid was actually doing in the moments that led to his confrontation with Zimmerman (whether that's reliable or not is up to you).  At the end of the day though we're still where we were at the start of this thread- nobody really knows for sure what happened and what everyone's motives were.  And this is because there hasn't been a proper investigation.  And that is why this whole thing is an issue.

[eric42434224]

I agree that, in a shhoting death, a "proper investigation" should occur.
One problem is that a "proper investigation" may not show any actual evidence to corroborate, or refute, anyones story.
What happens then?  All hell breaks loose I fear.

[gmillerdrake]

You seem to be approaching all of this from the mindset that this kid was prowling around the neighboorhood

I'm approaching it from the mindset that I think Zimmerman was well within his 'rights' to follow Martin and be curious to what he was up to...black...white...hoodie...no hoodie. That's it. I think the onus was on Martin to 'validate' his being there and where he was going. That isn't unreasonable to have to answer, especially in a gated community like that. I think that Martins age and the 'bravado' that go along with it along with the lifestyle he so elegantly participated in on twitter influenced him to handle the situation in a manner that ultimately led to him being shot. That's what I believe...not stating that as FACT....just my opinion.
  If anything this case has exposed Floridas Law to be too liberal in interpretation. Even MO's Castle Doctrine each instance of someone shooting in self defense is automatically reviewed by prosecutors and the burden is on the 'shooter' to prove why they did it. There were (7) cases last year in MO where the Castle Doctrine was envoked and all 7 were justified. Albeit, all cases involved an intruder breaking in to someones home which leaves little room to 'doubt' the shooters story or 'side' with the victim.
 

[Ryzee]

So it seems like we're all pretty much in agreement then that this case has not been investigated and handled properly.  Yay!

[bosk1]

This is interesting:

And he was on his cellphone headset the whole time talking w/ his girlfriend...

I hadn't thought about this before, but something just occurred to me as I was reading your post.  In the 911 tape, at the beginning, Zimmerman makes the comment about Martin stumbling around and looking like he is on drugs.  I wonder if the fact that he was on the phone may have contributed to Zimmerman's perception.  Think about it.  If Martin had a headset on that was not visible because of the hoodie, he was likely focused on the conversation and may have had a distant look on his face and appear to be somewhat wandering and not focused, as a lot of us sometimes do when we are holding a phone conversation while trying to do something else at the same time.  Just makes me wonder whether the phone thing could have actually been part of the trigger for this whole mess and contributed to Martin looking "suspicious" to Zimmerman.  Whether Martin was on the path between the townhomes or not, if he was walking with purpose making it obvious that he was going somewhere, or if he were visibly holding a phone up to his head and talking, I'm guessing he may have looked a lot less "suspicious," regardless of the other factors.

[PraXis]

Quoting from Boortz what I think is a good take on the SYG part:

As for the SYG law and the Trayvon Martin case, I haven’t seen anyone else bring this up, but both Trayvon and Zimmerman had the SYG law on their side under the three possible operating scenarios here:

George Zimmerman.  If Zimmerman was attacked by Trayvon, as he claims, he had the legal authority to use deadly force to repel the attack.  BUT .. and this is a big but here .. if he was pursuing Trayvon, as he said he was, the SYG law would not protect him from prosecution.  Zimmerman wasn’t standing his ground.  He was in pursuit.  I see no reason for repeal of SYG here because the law will not stand as a defense for what Zimmerman did.  By the way …. I heard Juan Williams on Fox News Channel say – not once, but several times --- that George Zimmerman had been told by the police to stop his pursuit of Trayvon.  First of all, there is no evidence that the 911 dispatcher Zimmerman was talking to was was a police officer. Secondly, the dispatcher didn’t say “Don’t do that.”  The dispatcher said “You don’t need to be doing that.”  Telling someone that they don’t need to be doing something is quite different from telling someone NOT to do something.  Williams should understand this.

Trayvon Martin:  How would the SYG law stand to protect Trayvon?  If Trayvon had noticed he was being followed, and if he elected to flee his pursuer he would have every right to do so.  He would also have every right to turn and to confront his pursuer.  That would be “standing your ground.”  So the rumored testimony of this eyewitness who said he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon pummeling him does not necessarily implicate Trayvon.  If he was standing his ground he was acting within the law.

Now here’s where it could get complicated.  What if Zimmerman had ceased his pursuit of Trayvon and retreated to his car.  What if Trayvon then pursued Zimmerman to his car and attacked him.  Trayvon would then lose his protection under SYG, just as Zimmerman did when he initiated a pursuit.  But if Zimmerman than became the pursued instead of the pursuer, does he then have the SYG law to rely on?   That’s an interesting question, and one that I think would have to be put in front of a jury. 

[gmillerdrake]

So it seems like we're all pretty much in agreement then that this case has not been investigated and handled properly.  Yay!

I had 'assumed' that Floridas law was pretty much Missouri's las being that they are one of many states that once you get a Conceal Carry Liscense here in MO, I can carry in Florida..(there are many states that reciprocate like that) so I had assumed the laws were pretty much the same save a detail here or there.....but once this story became a story and Floridas law was 'exposed', it's VERY open for interpretation. To have the ability just to say 'Yeah, I was scared for my life' and that be that......that is scary in it's own. And I'm a HUGE Pro-Gun man....Huge.....and that law is still a bit un nerving for me.
  I like and trust the law we have here in MO because you know that if you are going to draw your weapon and shoot someone, you WILL have to prove that it was self defense and that you feared for your life. I think that in it's own can and will stop any Tom, Dick or Harry from just arbitrarily shooting someone and claiming self defense.
  I DONT think that's what Zimmerman did.......but that Florida law can and does allow people to say and do just that. What I fear and what is already happening is that instead of ammending that law and making the proper changes to it the Anti-gun folk are out in full force trying to just wipe any type of self defense law from the books completely. 

[Scheavo]

If you suspect someone of something, is there anything they can do that won't be suspicious?

Yes.  When asked what they are doing here, they respond, "Oh, Hi there.  Yeah, Im Eric Smith, I live 2 streets over on Holly Lane.  Have a good day!:

Saying, "You got a problem?", or running will cause more suspicion.

So to answer your question, there are certainly things that can be done that wont be suspicious, and there are mnay things that can be done to STOP the suspicion

That's not really in Trayvon's ability, to have Zimmerman ask him a question. Zimmerman didn't approach him, didn't identify himself, didn't make it clear what his intentions were. So, is there anything Trayvon could have done that would not have been susicious? Walking home? Running? Hiding?

[gmillerdrake]

That's not really in Trayvon's ability, to have Zimmerman ask him a question. Zimmerman didn't approach him, didn't identify himself, didn't make it clear what his intentions were. So, is there anything Trayvon could have done that would not have been susicious? Walking home? Running? Hiding?

That brings me back to what I believe. I believe Zimmermans story that he 'lost' sight of Martin....began heading back to his vehicle...at which time Martin engaged Zimmerman. At that point instead of saying 'now you have a problem' or whatever, that is/was his chance to validate himself or state his place/purpose etc. That's where I believe his age/mentality came in to play and the situation escalated to what it did leading to him being shot. I don't think we will ever know, and without further evidence that 'is' what happened.

[Scheavo]

That's not really in Trayvon's ability, to have Zimmerman ask him a question. Zimmerman didn't approach him, didn't identify himself, didn't make it clear what his intentions were. So, is there anything Trayvon could have done that would not have been susicious? Walking home? Running? Hiding?

That brings me back to what I believe. I believe Zimmermans story that he 'lost' sight of Martin....began heading back to his vehicle...at which time Martin engaged Zimmerman. At that point instead of saying 'now you have a problem' or whatever, that is/was his chance to validate himself or state his place/purpose etc. That's where I believe his age/mentality came in to play and the situation escalated to what it did leading to him being shot. I don't think we will ever know, and without further evidence that 'is' what happened.

But if he finally did sneak out of site, he did so only after trying to get away, and having Zimmerman follow him. There's no reason Martin should be expected to assume he's lost Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman isn't looking for him.

Also, as I pointed out, the line of events that you portray has Zimmerman not identifying himself, not making it clear what his intentions were. He lied, Trayvon probably knew it, and that'd make him feel more threatened.

[gmillerdrake]

That's not really in Trayvon's ability, to have Zimmerman ask him a question. Zimmerman didn't approach him, didn't identify himself, didn't make it clear what his intentions were. So, is there anything Trayvon could have done that would not have been susicious? Walking home? Running? Hiding?

That brings me back to what I believe. I believe Zimmermans story that he 'lost' sight of Martin....began heading back to his vehicle...at which time Martin engaged Zimmerman. At that point instead of saying 'now you have a problem' or whatever, that is/was his chance to validate himself or state his place/purpose etc. That's where I believe his age/mentality came in to play and the situation escalated to what it did leading to him being shot. I don't think we will ever know, and without further evidence that 'is' what happened.

But if he finally did sneak out of site, he did so only after trying to get away, and having Zimmerman follow him. There's no reason Martin should be expected to assume he's lost Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman isn't looking for him.

Also, as I pointed out, the line of events that you portray has Zimmerman not identifying himself, not making it clear what his intentions were. He lied, Trayvon probably knew it, and that'd make him feel more threatened.

It is a huge cluster 'F'...for sure. I think even if we knew for certain every action of both, every word spoken of both....like Praxis pointed out earlier....there could possibly have been multiple changing moments of who was threatened at what time and by whom. It's a mess...it really is. That is why I think that without further evidence proving otherwise....under the law Florida has at the moment and at the time of the shooting....Zimmerman is "innocent" and shouldn't face any time. Do I think that's right? No. But when it come's down to it that IS the law and the only thing that can be done about it is from here forward....about changing that law to a more reasonable SYG law.

[bosk1]

   WHEN WILL YOU ADDRESS MY MONKEY PHONE ARGUMENT?

[Scheavo]

That's not really in Trayvon's ability, to have Zimmerman ask him a question. Zimmerman didn't approach him, didn't identify himself, didn't make it clear what his intentions were. So, is there anything Trayvon could have done that would not have been susicious? Walking home? Running? Hiding?

That brings me back to what I believe. I believe Zimmermans story that he 'lost' sight of Martin....began heading back to his vehicle...at which time Martin engaged Zimmerman. At that point instead of saying 'now you have a problem' or whatever, that is/was his chance to validate himself or state his place/purpose etc. That's where I believe his age/mentality came in to play and the situation escalated to what it did leading to him being shot. I don't think we will ever know, and without further evidence that 'is' what happened.

But if he finally did sneak out of site, he did so only after trying to get away, and having Zimmerman follow him. There's no reason Martin should be expected to assume he's lost Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman isn't looking for him.

Also, as I pointed out, the line of events that you portray has Zimmerman not identifying himself, not making it clear what his intentions were. He lied, Trayvon probably knew it, and that'd make him feel more threatened.

It is a huge cluster 'F'...for sure. I think even if we knew for certain every action of both, every word spoken of both....like Praxis pointed out earlier....there could possibly have been multiple changing moments of who was threatened at what time and by whom. It's a mess...it really is. That is why I think that without further evidence proving otherwise....under the law Florida has at the moment and at the time of the shooting....Zimmerman is "innocent" and shouldn't face any time. Do I think that's right? No. But when it come's down to it that IS the law and the only thing that can be done about it is from here forward....about changing that law to a more reasonable SYG law.

Well, there still the Federal Government, whose laws are Supreme. The FBI is now investigating this, so there's still the possibility of federal laws (though that might only be if its "hate crime" related?)

Oh, and the fact that his is the law in Florida is why I'm upset. I'm not calling for Zimmerman's head, I'm calling for his trial. The SYG law definitely needs to be addressed, but I've seen supporters of the law say that this case shouldn't fall under the SYG law, yet it practically is doing so. So it may not be legal, it's just that the law has set up the judicial system in such away, that it's become impossible to legally prove the case.

[gmillerdrake]

  WHEN WILL YOU ADDRESS MY MONKEY PHONE ARGUMENT?

Oh sorry.   
I think your assesment is fair. It is 'funny' to watch people on thier bluetooths talking, waving thier arms...and carrying on. And that could go to explain why he 'appeared' to be on drugs or acting strange. Impossible for Zimmerman to be able to tell at night, but I don't think it's any fault of Zimmerman if he mis-interpreted what he saw....I'm sure I've been pretty clear I support the 'motive' behind Zimmerman following Martin to try and verify who he was and what he was up to.
   

[Ryzee]

That's not really in Trayvon's ability, to have Zimmerman ask him a question. Zimmerman didn't approach him, didn't identify himself, didn't make it clear what his intentions were. So, is there anything Trayvon could have done that would not have been susicious? Walking home? Running? Hiding?

That brings me back to what I believe. I believe Zimmermans story that he 'lost' sight of Martin....began heading back to his vehicle...at which time Martin engaged Zimmerman. At that point instead of saying 'now you have a problem' or whatever, that is/was his chance to validate himself or state his place/purpose etc. That's where I believe his age/mentality came in to play and the situation escalated to what it did leading to him being shot. I don't think we will ever know, and without further evidence that 'is' what happened.

But if he finally did sneak out of site, he did so only after trying to get away, and having Zimmerman follow him. There's no reason Martin should be expected to assume he's lost Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman isn't looking for him.

Also, as I pointed out, the line of events that you portray has Zimmerman not identifying himself, not making it clear what his intentions were. He lied, Trayvon probably knew it, and that'd make him feel more threatened.

It is a huge cluster 'F'...for sure. I think even if we knew for certain every action of both, every word spoken of both....like Praxis pointed out earlier....there could possibly have been multiple changing moments of who was threatened at what time and by whom. It's a mess...it really is. That is why I think that without further evidence proving otherwise....under the law Florida has at the moment and at the time of the shooting....Zimmerman is "innocent" and shouldn't face any time. Do I think that's right? No. But when it come's down to it that IS the law and the only thing that can be done about it is from here forward....about changing that law to a more reasonable SYG law.

Yes, you've made that quite clear, and that's quite nice, but I think most of us would be more comfortable if that was decided in a court of law.

[gmillerdrake]

That's not really in Trayvon's ability, to have Zimmerman ask him a question. Zimmerman didn't approach him, didn't identify himself, didn't make it clear what his intentions were. So, is there anything Trayvon could have done that would not have been susicious? Walking home? Running? Hiding?

That brings me back to what I believe. I believe Zimmermans story that he 'lost' sight of Martin....began heading back to his vehicle...at which time Martin engaged Zimmerman. At that point instead of saying 'now you have a problem' or whatever, that is/was his chance to validate himself or state his place/purpose etc. That's where I believe his age/mentality came in to play and the situation escalated to what it did leading to him being shot. I don't think we will ever know, and without further evidence that 'is' what happened.

But if he finally did sneak out of site, he did so only after trying to get away, and having Zimmerman follow him. There's no reason Martin should be expected to assume he's lost Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman isn't looking for him.

Also, as I pointed out, the line of events that you portray has Zimmerman not identifying himself, not making it clear what his intentions were. He lied, Trayvon probably knew it, and that'd make him feel more threatened.

It is a huge cluster 'F'...for sure. I think even if we knew for certain every action of both, every word spoken of both....like Praxis pointed out earlier....there could possibly have been multiple changing moments of who was threatened at what time and by whom. It's a mess...it really is. That is why I think that without further evidence proving otherwise....under the law Florida has at the moment and at the time of the shooting....Zimmerman is "innocent" and shouldn't face any time. Do I think that's right? No. But when it come's down to it that IS the law and the only thing that can be done about it is from here forward....about changing that law to a more reasonable SYG law.

Yes, you've made that quite clear, and that's quite nice, but I think most of us would be more comfortable if that was decided in a court of law.

I only disagree with that to the point that as long as it is due to the process.....and not due to the large amount of social pressure that is being forced behind this issue. If Zimmerman going to trial is a part of the 'natural' process from what happened on that night, then most definately he should stand trial.
  But if he's already been exhonorated by the law....charges were not filed due to the law..... but all of a sudden due to the 'outrage' and social pressure he's going to be put on trial to try and placate the masses....I think that's where I would disagree.

[Ryzee]

Ok I'm going to stop quoting so the quote pyramid doesn't get too huge. 

As has been pointed out before by myself and others- the "outrage" is because Zimmerman hasn't been charged with anything or put on trial.  If that is because of the SYG law in Florida, then yes that law is flawed and should be reviewed.  I would like to think that I live in a society that if one civilian kills another civilian, then the killer should have to stand trial to determine whether or not the killing was justified.  I mean, killing a person is a pretty big deal, to me anyway.  I think you've even said yourself that the idea that cops can show up to a scene with one guy dead and another guy holding a gun, and the guy with the gun can just say "oh it was self defense, honest" and the cops are like "cool, run along then" is pretty messed up, yeah?

[MondayMorningLunatic]

I know I'm late to the party, but has anyone brought up the fact that it was raining outside? That's why Trayvon had the hoodie up.

It seems like, at the bare minimum, Zimmermann overreacted.

[senecadawg2]

Maybe this has already been discussed previously, as I haven't read through the entire thread, but this really gets me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3ASKmZ-8A

Basically, we should have the right to bear arms, yet not have the freedom to wear whatever the hell we want to wear without fear of losing our lives.

Not sure if you object to the message or the reality.  I think Geraldo's right.

You have to recognize that this whole stylizing yourself as a gangster, you're gonna be a gangsta wannabe, well people are going to perceive you as a menace. That's what happens.

I think people should be able to wear whateverthehell they want to wear, but they should also recognize that if they want to wear something that makes them look like a thug, that's how people will see them.  I'd say that the problem isn't about freedom to dress yourself, but the glamorizing of a dangerous lifestyle.  Maybe I'll wear fatigues, body armor and balaclava to the grocery store later on (my Wehrmacht dress uniform is at the cleaners).

That's the first time I've seen what Gerlado got so much flack for.  That's unfortunate.  If Bill Cosby had said it there wouldn't have been any problem. 

As for the right to bear arms, that applied to Trayvon as well.  He had the right to carry a gun to protect himself from damn-fool wannabe cops.

I know this is kind of a late response, and the discussion on this matter has somewhat died down a bit. Yet I feel the need to express my own thoughts on the matter. Rivera's statement that the hoodie was just as much to blame for as Zimmerman himself was what really threw my off. As for the whole 'glamorizing' of a lifestyle (gangster in this case), I think this is a sorry argument. I frequently wear hoodies and know many other people who do as well, and I am the farthest thing from a gangster that you would ever see. As other posters suggested, maybe the hoodie was to protect from the weather... Also, to compare a hoodie to fatigues, body armor and a balaclava is a bit extreme.

Anyhow, this is just my opinion, and nothing more. We are all entitled to them, just wanted to put my two cents out there...

[SystematicThought]

Pretty interesting developments on the case. Zimmermann's lawyers quit because they have lost contact with him and he is talking to the Investigator and Sean Hannity. Pretty interesting. They think they know where he is-they said to stop looking in Florida-but they fear for his mental health.

I would not want to be in his shoes. No matter what happens, GZ will never have a normal life again

[El Barto]

He'll get no-billed,  move someplace low-key and sell the rights to the story for 6 figures.  And the same media that's tried so hard to fuck his life will save it by moving onto the next water-cooler sensation.  When was the last time we talked about the chick that killed her daughter because her lifestyle was cramped?  Even remember her name?  Americans have short memories and like their sleaze current.

Assuming he doesn't get shot in the next two months, George Zimmerman will be fine.

[Dark Castle]

He'll get no-billed,  move someplace low-key and sell the rights to the story for 6 figures.  And the same media that's tried so hard to fuck his life will save it by moving onto the next water-cooler sensation.  When was the last time we talked about the chick that killed her daughter because her lifestyle was cramped?  Even remember her name?  Americans have short memories and like their sleaze current.

Assuming he doesn't get shot in the next two months, George Zimmerman will be fine.

Casey Anthony, I was really hoping she would accept Hustler's offer, that would have been legendary.

[slycordinator]

Zimmermann's lawyers quit because they have lost contact with him and he is talking to the Investigator and Sean Hannity. Pretty interesting. They think they know where he is-they said to stop looking in Florida-but they fear for his mental health.

And it's pretty unusual for attorneys who drop a client to hold a press conference telling stuff like this. Not only that, but there's some question as to whether some of this is privileged information that they weren't allowed to discuss in this type of forum.

[gmillerdrake]

Anyone anticipate the sh%t hitting the fan when the prosecutor comes back and says she's not filing ANY charges? Not bringing the case to the grand jury can only mean 1 of 2 things, either she has new/un-released evidence where she doesn't need a grand juries inquiries to bring charges, and she will....or she has no further evidence and will not be filing charges. If she doesn't file charges I have a sneaky feeling there will be more than one violent 'outburst' by the black community. That community has been 'charged' up by the race baiters and low life scum who live on that type of crap and if/when no charges are filed the 'outrage' IMO won't be contatined to merely voiced or written.

He'll get no-billed,  move someplace low-key and sell the rights to the story for 6 figures.  And the same media that's tried so hard to fuck his life will save it by moving onto the next water-cooler sensation.  When was the last time we talked about the chick that killed her daughter because her lifestyle was cramped?  Even remember her name?  Americans have short memories and like their sleaze current.

Assuming he doesn't get shot in the next two months, George Zimmerman will be fine.

Great point El Barto. Our culture always willinlgy runs towards the next shiny object dangled in front of us.....

[Scheavo]

Well, I heard a week ago even, that the city was preparing for trouble.

I'm still interested to see what happens with the Federal Case. Florida may have screwed itself with it's stand your ground law, but luckily that's why were supposed to have the federal government as well.

[El Barto]

What needs to happen is that the FBI and the DoJ need to release their reports first, which will hopefully diffuse somewhat Florida's inability to prosecute.  I'm not sure it'll make a difference, but it might.

And I've expected trouble all along.  Furthermore, I'd be willing to be that every LEA in America serving a population >100k is making plans for trouble breaking out.  That includes the NG, BTW.  The irony is that a likely outcome will be several more "Stand your ground" type issues arising as a result of insurrection. 

[Scheavo]

That includes the NG, BTW.  The irony is that a likely outcome will be several more "Stand your ground" type issues arising as a result of insurrection.

Hah!

Not that it's really a laughing matter, I just find irony amusing, and I think you're right.

[Scheavo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

If true, that's good news.

[El Barto]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

If true, that's good news.

For the rest of us, but sucks for GZ.

Like I said before, even though he likely acted legally, he did exercise poor judgement, and having him take one for the team won't break my heart, though.