Author Topic: Is there evil in Heaven?  (Read 5714 times)

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Offline El JoNNo

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Is there evil in Heaven?
« on: March 27, 2012, 12:15:33 PM »
Satan was supposedly rebellious. Which isn't necessarily evil. Do people have the will to be evil in heaven? Your thoughts.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2012, 12:19:50 PM »
???  But...for someone who adamantly denies the existence of heaven, isn't it a moot point?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 12:20:19 PM »
I always thought that for heaven to be this uber-happy place, the people who end up going there would kinda have to get a "lobotomy", in that I don't think you could even still talk about "person X went to heaven" since it's not really person X anymore, but instead this being constantly on Valium.

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Offline SeRoX

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 12:25:38 PM »
According to the religion, at least islam (which I know the details) people will be in heaven after they purify from their sins. The people in heaven have no obliquity to be evil or good.

But before that, is there a heaven?
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Offline Implode

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 12:27:47 PM »
I thought heaven was supposed to be not a physical place but a state of being in which you are one with God.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 12:33:00 PM »
I thought heaven was supposed to be not a physical place but a state of being in which you are one with God.

That's a very new-age interpretation though, isn't it?

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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2012, 12:43:11 PM »
???  But...for someone who adamantly denies the existence of heaven, isn't it a moot point?

Yes, completely. I'm just curious of opinions.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2012, 01:02:00 PM »
???  But...for someone who adamantly denies the existence of heaven, isn't it a moot point?

Yes, completely. I'm just curious of opinions.

Okay.  Well, here's my roundabout answer.

The only things we as mortals can know about heaven, since none of us have seen it, are what the Bible tells us about it.  And all we have in the Bible are glimpses.  There simply isn't enough to go on to give a concrete answer.  Not sure whether that is because (1) serving God is not supposed to be just about the "reward," so that's not where our focus should be, (2) we couldn't possibly understand it with our limited mortal understanding, even if we were told more, or (3) other reasons.  But in any case, most of what we have are either fleeting explanations or, such is in revelation, symbolic descriptions.  So almost anything we can say about what goes on in heaven is pure speculation.

What we do know is that it is a place where the souls of the saved exist eternally with God and with other beings.  It seems that there is, as you indicated in your own post, free will.  Those who are there seem to still be themselves, and have the ability to think, to know, and to act.  With that, it seems to me, that the option to rebel exists.  As you pointed out, Satan and some angels rebelled.  As such, they were eventually cast out.  It seems to me that the ability to rebel would still exist.

Although the promise of residing in heaven is described as eternal, the possibility of rebelling and being cast out is consistent with a relationship with God, because whether one is talking about the relationship of man with God in patriarchal times, under the Jewish covenant, or under the new covenant, we see the specifics of those relationships being different, but what is the same is that they are always without exception, covenant relationships.  In other words, they are always conditional.  In a the most broad sense, the relationship is always, "you will be blessed endlessly if you love and obey God."  The conditional nature of that relationship seems to imply that the ability always exists for us to choose to break that relationship.  If we do not, God will always keep up his end of the bargain, which is eternal paradise.  If we do break the covenant, God keeps up his end of the bargain in that regard as well.

So, yeah.  That's my take.
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Offline Implode

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2012, 01:08:12 PM »
I thought heaven was supposed to be not a physical place but a state of being in which you are one with God.
That's a very new-age interpretation though, isn't it?

I think you're right. I wouldn't really know as I'm not religious anymore.

Online El Barto

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 02:05:44 PM »
Interesting question.  By extension, I have to wonder if we could sin in heaven.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 02:08:21 PM »
Interesting question.  By extension, I have to wonder if we could sin in heaven.

IMO, yes.  I think that is implicit in my answer above.
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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 02:12:49 PM »
yes interesting question, to me the idea that you can still sin and get kicked out of heaven kind of ruins the idea of heaven for me, as if the 'test' on earth wasn't enough and you can still get damned to eternal fire for stuff you do there... you still have to resist/fight/control your urges in trying to please God which is not something I associate with everlasting bliss and happiness.

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 02:26:03 PM »
yes interesting question, to me the idea that you can still sin and get kicked out of heaven kind of ruins the idea of heaven for me, as if the 'test' on earth wasn't enough and you can still get damned to eternal fire for stuff you do there... you still have to resist/fight/control your urges in trying to please God which is not something I associate with everlasting bliss and happiness.
Indeed. 
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 03:14:05 PM »
My take is that 'heaven' is simply being in GODs presence....for eternity. The bliss/joy/emotion etc. of that communion will superceed any earthly emotional experience we've ever had. There is no way to describe  what it will be like. What I assume is that once we've entered in to GODs presence the desire to 'sin' or seek something 'better or more gratifying' won't be a priority because there is nothing better or more gratifying.....GOD will provide us our hearts desire. 
  satan choosing to rebel is different than if man were to have that choice because he was/is different than man in the manner that he was an angel, or spirit right off the bat and never knew what life was like without GODs presence. He led himself to believe a series of lies bolstered by his ego and selfishness and made a choice based on the thought that he could do better or be better than GOD.
   hell is not a place contrary to the spin that man has put on it through literature and misconception. hell is simply spending eternity out of GODs presence....like satan has been forced to do....which is why he stops at nothing to make sure we suffer the same fate he did. he's tasted GODs presence and is painfully aware of what that feels like, and he is a jealous, envious little spirit who has the 'if i can't have it then no one can' attitude.
 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 03:19:03 PM »
My take is that 'heaven' is simply being in GODs presence....for eternity.   

No.

The bliss/joy/emotion etc. of that communion will superceed any earthly emotional experience we've ever had. There is no way to describe  what it will be like. What I assume is that once we've entered in to GODs presence the desire to 'sin' or seek something 'better or more gratifying' won't be a priority because there is nothing better or more gratifying.....GOD will provide us our hearts desire. 
  satan choosing to rebel is different than if man were to have that choice because he was/is different than man in the manner that he was an angel, or spirit right off the bat and never knew what life was like without GODs presence. He led himself to believe a series of lies bolstered by his ego and selfishness and made a choice based on the thought that he could do better or be better than GOD.

Yeah, could be.  Good point.

hell is simply spending eternity out of GODs presence....like satan has been forced to do....

No.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 03:21:43 PM »
My take is that 'heaven' is simply being in GODs presence....for eternity.   

No.

The bliss/joy/emotion etc. of that communion will superceed any earthly emotional experience we've ever had. There is no way to describe  what it will be like. What I assume is that once we've entered in to GODs presence the desire to 'sin' or seek something 'better or more gratifying' won't be a priority because there is nothing better or more gratifying.....GOD will provide us our hearts desire. 
  satan choosing to rebel is different than if man were to have that choice because he was/is different than man in the manner that he was an angel, or spirit right off the bat and never knew what life was like without GODs presence. He led himself to believe a series of lies bolstered by his ego and selfishness and made a choice based on the thought that he could do better or be better than GOD.

Yeah, could be.  Good point.

hell is simply spending eternity out of GODs presence....like satan has been forced to do....

No.

not sure what leads you to "no" on both counts.  I tend to think these are the best summations of heaven and hell.  all the other stuff are just metaphors that we can understand.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 03:22:10 PM »
My take is that 'heaven' is simply being in GODs presence....for eternity.   

No.

hell is simply spending eternity out of GODs presence....like satan has been forced to do....

No.

So sure about heaven and hell?  :|
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 03:26:49 PM »
My take is that 'heaven' is simply being in GODs presence....for eternity. The bliss/joy/emotion etc. of that communion will superceed any earthly emotional experience we've ever had. There is no way to describe  what it will be like. What I assume is that once we've entered in to GODs presence the desire to 'sin' or seek something 'better or more gratifying' won't be a priority because there is nothing better or more gratifying.....GOD will provide us our hearts desire. 
  satan choosing to rebel is different than if man were to have that choice because he was/is different than man in the manner that he was an angel, or spirit right off the bat and never knew what life was like without GODs presence. He led himself to believe a series of lies bolstered by his ego and selfishness and made a choice based on the thought that he could do better or be better than GOD.
   hell is not a place contrary to the spin that man has put on it through literature and misconception. hell is simply spending eternity out of GODs presence....like satan has been forced to do....which is why he stops at nothing to make sure we suffer the same fate he did. he's tasted GODs presence and is painfully aware of what that feels like, and he is a jealous, envious little spirit who has the 'if i can't have it then no one can' attitude.
 

Well I hope boobs and/or sex counts as a heart's desire that can be granted, because no amount of God's grace will be enough to silence my love of boobs and sex.
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 03:29:19 PM »
Quote from: yeshaberto link=topic=31635.msg1251448#msg1251448

not sure what leads you to "no" on both counts.  I tend to think these are the best summations of heaven and hell.  all the other stuff are just metaphors that we can understand.


I think it's about the "eternity". If God has an endless mercy for his people they can go the the heaven after they all purify from their sins. At least, according to the Quran it is explained like that but plus, there are some sins can not be forgiven, such us denying his presence and his prophets.

And, if Adam and Eve had been banished from the heaven I doubt we can use "eternity" for defining them. Of course, religious speaking.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 03:56:01 PM »
My take is that 'heaven' is simply being in GODs presence....for eternity. The bliss/joy/emotion etc. of that communion will superceed any earthly emotional experience we've ever had. There is no way to describe  what it will be like. What I assume is that once we've entered in to GODs presence the desire to 'sin' or seek something 'better or more gratifying' won't be a priority because there is nothing better or more gratifying.....GOD will provide us our hearts desire. 
  satan choosing to rebel is different than if man were to have that choice because he was/is different than man in the manner that he was an angel, or spirit right off the bat and never knew what life was like without GODs presence. He led himself to believe a series of lies bolstered by his ego and selfishness and made a choice based on the thought that he could do better or be better than GOD.
   hell is not a place contrary to the spin that man has put on it through literature and misconception. hell is simply spending eternity out of GODs presence....like satan has been forced to do....which is why he stops at nothing to make sure we suffer the same fate he did. he's tasted GODs presence and is painfully aware of what that feels like, and he is a jealous, envious little spirit who has the 'if i can't have it then no one can' attitude.
 

Well I hope boobs and/or sex counts as a heart's desire that can be granted, because no amount of God's grace will be enough to silence my love of boobs and sex.

of course, they were both his idea in the first place

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 04:06:29 PM »
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 04:10:28 PM »
GOD
satan 

No offense dude, but isn't your spelling a bit ... over the top?

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 04:11:02 PM »
love the pic, SD, but not sure what it is in reference to

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 04:12:33 PM »
I mean there is a reference attached to it but I'm not using it here; I'm just overjoyed at the thought. :biggrin:
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2012, 04:16:05 PM »
GOD
satan 

No offense dude, but isn't your spelling a bit ... over the top?

rumborak
Nope. Not at all.

No offense taken.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2012, 04:18:40 PM »
Dunno, reminds me of Harry Potter to be honest. "He who must not be named".

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2012, 04:21:09 PM »
Dunno, reminds me of Harry Potter to be honest. "He who must not be named".

rumborak

That's probably because the former conceptually inspires all villains, especially the latter.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2012, 04:21:58 PM »
_\\x*xGODx*x//_

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2012, 04:24:04 PM »
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As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2012, 04:27:38 PM »
Dunno, reminds me of Harry Potter to be honest. "He who must not be named".

rumborak

That's probably because the former conceptually inspires all villains, especially the latter.

Oh, I know. It just strikes me that Rowling pointed out the same fallacy. If you change your spelling (or don't dare to say the name), you're conceding to someone you really shouldn't.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2012, 04:41:07 PM »
To make another pop reference, I thought Star Trek: The Final Frontier actually made a very good point (despite it otherwise being a pretty mediocre movie). When Kirk gets offered to have the pain released that he harbored for all his life, Kirk replies "I need my pain, it's what defines me".
Any description of heaven that I've seen neutered the "human state" so much that you either can't call them human anymore, or not really in bliss.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 04:55:11 PM »
My take is that 'heaven' is simply being in GODs presence....for eternity.   

No.

The bliss/joy/emotion etc. of that communion will superceed any earthly emotional experience we've ever had. There is no way to describe  what it will be like. What I assume is that once we've entered in to GODs presence the desire to 'sin' or seek something 'better or more gratifying' won't be a priority because there is nothing better or more gratifying.....GOD will provide us our hearts desire. 
  satan choosing to rebel is different than if man were to have that choice because he was/is different than man in the manner that he was an angel, or spirit right off the bat and never knew what life was like without GODs presence. He led himself to believe a series of lies bolstered by his ego and selfishness and made a choice based on the thought that he could do better or be better than GOD.

Yeah, could be.  Good point.

hell is simply spending eternity out of GODs presence....like satan has been forced to do....

No.

not sure what leads you to "no" on both counts.  I tend to think these are the best summations of heaven and hell.  all the other stuff are just metaphors that we can understand.


By "no," I am objecting to the idea that heaven is merely being in God's presence and hell is merely being out of God's presence.  Yes, God's presence or the lack thereof is a key element.  And, yes, depictions in pop culture of what heaven and hell are kind of make a mess of the whole concept.  But both seem by all accounts to be places or realms (for lack of a better term), and not merely states of being in or out of God's presence.  Again, that is part of it, but that is not the whole picture. 
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2012, 04:59:46 PM »
gotcha.  I agree.
I am assuming you have an extreme view in mind that you are speaking in response to, but not sure what it is.
I do have a hard time, though, with the use of "place" in regard to something that is in the "spiritual" world.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2012, 05:21:41 PM »
gotcha.  I agree.
I am assuming you have an extreme view in mind that you are speaking in response to, but not sure what it is.
I do have a hard time, though, with the use of "place" in regard to something that is in the "spiritual" world.

Yeah, I know what you mean.  I pretty much agree, which is why I included the term "realm" as well (although that probably doesn't exactly capture it either).  But Jesus tended to use descriptions that were consistent with locations quite frequently when he spoke of heaven, and John uses a description of a city.  While there is obviously a lot of symbolism used to describe these spiritual concepts that I am sure cannot be understood in a physical sense, I cannot help but feel that "place" is not far off.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Is there evil in Heaven?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2012, 06:02:42 PM »
Some believe that god is outside of time and the material universe, etc.....and that only god can be there or else he wouldnt be god.  So to those who believe that, isnt it impossible for those in heaven to truly be with god, or even be in the full presence of god?  Sounds like it can only just be a different level of involvement and interaction, and not truly "being with god".
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 06:11:11 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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