Author Topic: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument  (Read 5929 times)

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Offline Rathma

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2012, 09:16:00 PM »
Which began first, the chicken or the egg? And if one began first, when exactly did the other "begin"? buuuuuuuurn

Offline Omega

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2012, 09:17:53 PM »
So, if there really is only interacting particles, and no real "space" between them, the spontaneous generation of virtual particles means that those were truly coming from Nothing.

rumborak

Am I being ignored? Should I just go and copy/paste all the stuff I've said on quantum fluctuations and "nothing," or should I just pretend I didn't read this?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2012, 09:18:29 PM »
Which began first, the chicken or the egg? And if one began first, when exactly did the other "begin"? buuuuuuuurn
Nothing begins, bro. I thought we've been over this already.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2012, 09:20:10 PM »
So, if there really is only interacting particles, and no real "space" between them, the spontaneous generation of virtual particles means that those were truly coming from Nothing.

rumborak

Am I being ignored?

I guess I'm forced to give a direct answer: Yeah, I skip your posts.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Ħ

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2012, 09:20:50 PM »
So, if there really is only interacting particles, and no real "space" between them, the spontaneous generation of virtual particles means that those were truly coming from Nothing.

rumborak

Am I being ignored?

I guess I'm forced to give a direct answer: Yeah, I skip your posts.

rumborak
It's okay. His posts don't exist anyway.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Rathma

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2012, 09:22:43 PM »
Which began first, the chicken or the egg? And if one began first, when exactly did the other "begin"? buuuuuuuurn
Nothing begins, bro. I thought we've been over this already.

Glad we agree then.

Offline Omega

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2012, 09:25:46 PM »
So, if there really is only interacting particles, and no real "space" between them, the spontaneous generation of virtual particles means that those were truly coming from Nothing.

rumborak

Am I being ignored?

I guess I'm forced to give a direct answer: Yeah, I skip your posts.

rumborak

I think I hear something...

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2012, 10:28:22 PM »
I have no idea what the pic is about, but I don't like the direction this thread is taking towards personal insults toward each other. 
Either post about the discussion or nothing at all.

Online Adami

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2012, 10:31:57 PM »
I have no idea what the pic is about, but I don't like the direction this thread is taking towards personal insults toward each other. 
Either post about the discussion or nothing at all.

At some point I might have to go back and count how many times you've told people virtually this exact same thing in these kinds of threads. Doesn't it feel a bit futile now?
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2012, 10:38:17 PM »
I have no idea what the pic is about, but I don't like the direction this thread is taking towards personal insults toward each other. 
Either post about the discussion or nothing at all.

At some point I might have to go back and count how many times you've told people virtually this exact same thing in these kinds of threads. Doesn't it feel a bit futile now?

I didn't think I had in this thread, but I was counting on you to count for me  :-*

Online Adami

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2012, 10:43:10 PM »
I counted 12 times in the last 6 or so weeks.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2012, 10:50:14 PM »
I've closed one tonight...this one will be next.

Online Adami

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2012, 10:52:34 PM »
I've closed one tonight...this one will be next.

You can't lock this thread....







....it doesn't exist.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2012, 11:28:46 PM »
Omega:

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A contingent object cannot come from non-being into being. Quantum fluctuations, again, are not events that occur in the absence of being, or existence, but rather in its presence. Something cannot come into being from non-being. Existence cannot come into being from non-existence. This is a rather basic philosophical and logical principle established long ago by the ancient Greek philosophers that is always supported by modern science, common experience, and the same, underlying pillars of logic and philosophy that are maintained today. This principle is also never falsified.

Except when you try to claim that the universe was created, that God created the universe, even though God does not have universe like qualities, and is supernatural. You basically just said in a couple of sentences exactly why this argument is fallacious, while arguing for why the argument is right.

Who every said God is a contingent object?

Oh right, I forgot, claiming a non-contingent object exists, and calling it God, is proof.

What proof do you have that the universe is contingent? What proof do you have that God is not contingent? You need to answer both of those objections, if you are to atually proof that the universe has a creator, and that questions end at this creator.

Offline Sigz

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2012, 12:36:46 AM »
A contingent object cannot come from non-being into being. Quantum fluctuations, again, are not events that occur in the absence of being, or existence, but rather in its presence. Something cannot come into being from non-being. Existence cannot come into being from non-existence. This is a rather basic philosophical and logical principle established long ago by the ancient Greek philosophers that is always supported by modern science, common experience, and the same, underlying pillars of logic and philosophy that are maintained today. This principle is also never falsified.

What modern science or common experience deals with Nothingness? What philosophy or logic can possibly even touch on Nothingness when it's something we have no knowledge of? You keep saying these things yet never actually supporting them.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2012, 04:05:32 PM »
Oh right, I forgot, claiming a non-contingent object exists, and calling it God, is proof.

What proof do you have that the universe is contingent?


Namely, that that the universe began to exist and therefore could have failed to exist. The atheist wants to avoid at all costs the conclusion that the universe is a contingent object. So what's the atheist to do at this point? He can say that yes, the universe does have an explanation for its existence and that is that the universe exists by a necessity of its own nature. Thus the universe could serve as a God-substitute that exists necessarily.

Yet there's a reason why most atheist philosophers are extremely hesitant to embrace this alternative. None of the things that make up the universe - stars, planets, galaxies, radiation, people, animals, etc - seem to exist necessarily. That is - they could fail to exist. Indeed, at some point in the past, when the universe was very dense, none of them did exist. The objection that typically follows is that the matter which these things are made of simply exists necessarily and all these things are merely different configurations of matter. Yet according to the standard model of subatomic physics, matter itself is composed of tiny fundamental particles that cannot be further broken down. The universe is just a collection of all these particles arranged in different ways. But now the question arises: Does each and every one of these particles exist necessarily? Yet it is immediately clear that these particles don't exist necessarily because these particles aren't composed of anything - they just are the basic units of matter.

It isn't necessary for the universe to exist (in other words, the statement "the universe must exist" would need to be supported by the atheist. Yet there's a reason why no serious atheist philosopher would ever sincerely support this claim - the burden it places on the supporter is far too heavy to bear). We generally trust our modal intuitions on other familiar matters (for example, our sense that the planet Earth exists contingently, not necessarily, even though we have no experience of its non-existence). If we are to do otherwise with respect to the universe’s contingency, then the non-theist needs to provide some reason for his skepticism other than his desire to avoid theism.


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What proof do you have that God is not contingent?

God, properly understood, cannot have begun to exist; God is a necessary being whose existence lies in the necessity of His own nature. It's impossible for God to have a cause (a more powerful God creating another God? An infinite regress of God-creating-Gods?).



« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 05:30:17 PM by Omega »
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2012, 04:07:40 PM »
I would just like to say that if God is the best explanation for the beginning of the universe, you don't need an explanation of God. The objection, "Well then, what caused God?" is pretty juvenile.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Omega

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2012, 04:09:33 PM »
A contingent object cannot come from non-being into being. Quantum fluctuations, again, are not events that occur in the absence of being, or existence, but rather in its presence. Something cannot come into being from non-being. Existence cannot come into being from non-existence. This is a rather basic philosophical and logical principle established long ago by the ancient Greek philosophers that is always supported by modern science, common experience, and the same, underlying pillars of logic and philosophy that are maintained today. This principle is also never falsified.

What modern science or common experience deals with Nothingness? What philosophy or logic can possibly even touch on Nothingness when it's something we have no knowledge of? You keep saying these things yet never actually supporting them.

To clarify, science, by definition, cannot ever study "nothing" (are we to somehow find a way for scientific instruments to escape space-time and then somehow recover data from them, oblivious to the fact that they literally don't exist anymore?).

Besides, "nothingness" is relatively simple - it is utter absence of existence and, as such, has literally no properties at all, since there isn't anything to have properties. We needn't "experience" nothing through science or philosophy (indeed, you can't) to understand it.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Mereological nihilistic objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2012, 12:38:52 AM »
Namely, that that the universe began to exist and therefore could have failed to exist.

Wow. I ask you for proof of this statement, and you just repeat it. You repeating that the universe began to exist does not prove that the universe began to exist. If you want to use the Big Bang theory to back up this claim, you are abusing the science - and interchanging definitions of Universe so as agree with your argument. What you do have proof of, is that things around us began to exist, and that you and I began to exist. That is not proof that the Universe began to exist. To make that claim, you would be using a fallacy. If you are not making that claim, I cannot fathom what proof you supposedly have on the matter.

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What proof do you have that God is not contingent?

God, properly understood, cannot have begun to exist; God is a necessary being whose existence lies in the necessity of His own nature. It's impossible for God to have a cause (a more powerful God creating another God? An infinite regress of God-creating-Gods?).

I'll give you this: God, as you conceive of him, cannot have begun to exist. That's all you're saying, that your conception of God requires him to exist. You're ability to conceive of something which is not contingent, something which would be illogical for it not to exist, does not make that thing exist. This is not proof, this is a definition you are giving.

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That is - they could fail to exist. Indeed, at some point in the past, when the universe was very dense, none of them did exist.

That's not a proof against their not necessarily existing. It just means that they necessarily exist now, and not back then.

Also, stating that the universe, a totality of things, must exist, does not say that every thing to ever be found within the universe must exist, or necessarily exists. Basically, it can be true that something must exist, which is not the same as saying that what we see before us must exist (where this something can be understood as part of the universe).