Author Topic: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism  (Read 35058 times)

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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #210 on: March 13, 2012, 10:49:27 PM »
Yes. But the Euclidean plane can exist in your mind, and therefore the truths of a triangle can exist in your mind whether or not reality includes Euclidean planes.
 
Mathematicians can perform 4d geometry and obtain relationships between variables in the fourth dimension, but reality does not include the fourth dimension.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #211 on: March 13, 2012, 10:54:17 PM »
 :huh: I suppose, but what does that prove?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #212 on: March 13, 2012, 10:56:07 PM »
We have access to truths that don't necessarily pertain to reality.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 11:02:28 PM by Ħ »
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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #213 on: March 13, 2012, 11:00:33 PM »
Okay, and what does that have to do with things outside of the universe?

And once again, it's worth mentioning that these are hardly 'truths'. The fact that the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180 degrees is only 'true' when you hold Euclid's Postulates to be true, one of which we already know doesn't have to be.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #214 on: March 13, 2012, 11:02:37 PM »
In other words, we can make statements that don't involve our universe at all, or are 'extrauniversal', such as statements about the 4th+ dimensions. You were saying earlier that we can't make any extrauniversal statements.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Sigz

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #215 on: March 13, 2012, 11:08:18 PM »
In other words, we can make statements that don't involve our universe at all, or are 'extrauniversal', such as statements about the 4th+ dimensions. You were saying earlier that we can't make any extrauniversal statements.

Sure, you can make statements about whatever you want but you still have no basis for them in this case. We can work in 4-dimensions because we know what it means to have 4-dimensions mathematically. We have no real concept of what it means to be outside of the universe.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #216 on: March 13, 2012, 11:15:38 PM »
In other words, we can make statements that don't involve our universe at all, or are 'extrauniversal', such as statements about the 4th+ dimensions. You were saying earlier that we can't make any extrauniversal statements.

Sure, you can make statements about whatever you want but you still have no basis for them in this case. We can work in 4-dimensions because we know what it means to have 4-dimensions mathematically. We have no real concept of what it means to be outside of the universe.
We don't have any experiential concept of being outside the universe, but we don't have any experiential concept of 4d, either.

But suppose we did live in a 4d world. Does that mean that our mathematical statements of the third dimension are false? No. In any type of universe/location imaginable, these abstract truths that we reach through math or philosophy should hold true: they are not dependent on spacetime. They are true without time, with time, without space, and with space.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Sigz

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #217 on: March 13, 2012, 11:33:13 PM »
In other words, we can make statements that don't involve our universe at all, or are 'extrauniversal', such as statements about the 4th+ dimensions. You were saying earlier that we can't make any extrauniversal statements.

Sure, you can make statements about whatever you want but you still have no basis for them in this case. We can work in 4-dimensions because we know what it means to have 4-dimensions mathematically. We have no real concept of what it means to be outside of the universe.
We don't have any experiential concept of being outside the universe, but we don't have any experiential concept of 4d, either.

No, but we have mathematical experience of 4D space. Once again, we know nothing about non-space(?).


In any type of universe/location imaginable, these abstract truths that we reach through math or philosophy should hold true: they are not dependent on spacetime. They are true without time, with time, without space, and with space.

That doesn't mean they're applicable. What does it mean to say "If A=B and B=C then A=C" if you're outside of any actual existence, i.e the universe?

And once again, it's worth mentioning that these are hardly 'truths'. The fact that the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180 degrees is only 'true' when you hold Euclid's Postulates to be true, one of which we already know doesn't have to be.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #218 on: March 13, 2012, 11:49:58 PM »
That doesn't mean they're applicable. What does it mean to say "If A=B and B=C then A=C" if you're outside of any actual existence, i.e the universe?
I think you might be in error here. I don't think that existence is space-dependent. There may not be tangible existence outside space, but abstract objects (e.g. numbers) are not bound by space.

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And once again, it's worth mentioning that these are hardly 'truths'. The fact that the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180 degrees is only 'true' when you hold Euclid's Postulates to be true, one of which we already know doesn't have to be.
What do you mean by this? I'm not familiar with it. And even if one of the postulates wasn't true in non-space, then why should that affect other mathematical truths that aren't dependent on Euclid's Postulates in non-space?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Rathma

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #219 on: March 14, 2012, 12:07:38 AM »
Nah. Me for example - I don't believe in God but neither do I believe in the nonexistence of God. Sort of how a theoretical physicist might not believe in the Higgs boson but doesn't completely deny it either. If I completely denied the existence of God (I believe this is called strong atheism) (and Dawkins seems to come pretty close to this though he'd probably deny it), then yes I'd be on the other side of the spectrum. But mere non-belief is just neutral, imo. 
Then you're an agnostic - you withhold judgment on the issue. You aren't sure of the existence of God.

Nah, I'm a soft atheist.

Offline Rick

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #220 on: March 14, 2012, 04:56:56 AM »
I'm a strong atheist. Religion's fascinating, but the total absence of any evidence whatsoever aside from some people who have faith in the existence of a deity = it's not an idea I can entertain as being possibly true.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #221 on: March 14, 2012, 07:26:36 AM »
Nah. Me for example - I don't believe in God but neither do I believe in the nonexistence of God. Sort of how a theoretical physicist might not believe in the Higgs boson but doesn't completely deny it either. If I completely denied the existence of God (I believe this is called strong atheism) (and Dawkins seems to come pretty close to this though he'd probably deny it), then yes I'd be on the other side of the spectrum. But mere non-belief is just neutral, imo. 
Then you're an agnostic - you withhold judgment on the issue. You aren't sure of the existence of God.

Nah, I'm a soft atheist.

That's what an agnostic atheist is. Again agnostics are still atheists, provided we are using the colloquial version of the word. You can be agnostics or gnostic toward dinosaurs, global warming, blue balls or anything. It is a statement of the level of knowledge and means nothing when said without context.

I'm a strong atheist. Religion's fascinating, but the total absence of any evidence whatsoever aside from some people who have faith in the existence of a deity = it's not an idea I can entertain as being possibly true.

So you would be a gnostic atheist.


Offline eric42434224

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #222 on: March 14, 2012, 08:13:42 AM »
Then anyone who believes in god, but doesnt/cant profess knowledge of gods existence, is also agnostic.
It would follow that there really arent any atheists or theists, as no one has actual knowledge or proof of gods existence.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #223 on: March 14, 2012, 08:27:14 AM »
That doesn't mean they're applicable. What does it mean to say "If A=B and B=C then A=C" if you're outside of any actual existence, i.e the universe?
I think you might be in error here. I don't think that existence is space-dependent. There may not be tangible existence outside space, but abstract objects (e.g. numbers) are not bound by space.

Where is your evidence that numbers are things that exist without the humans to think of them?

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And once again, it's worth mentioning that these are hardly 'truths'. The fact that the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180 degrees is only 'true' when you hold Euclid's Postulates to be true, one of which we already know doesn't have to be.
What do you mean by this? I'm not familiar with it. And even if one of the postulates wasn't true in non-space, then why should that affect other mathematical truths that aren't dependent on Euclid's Postulates in non-space?

The point is, how many other so-called "truths" go out the window when no longer in our universe?

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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #224 on: March 14, 2012, 08:46:21 AM »
Then anyone who believes in god, but doesnt/cant profess knowledge of gods existence, is also agnostic.
It would follow that there really arent any atheists or theists, as no one has actual knowledge or proof of gods existence.

Like I said the atheist/theist definitions are only that of belief not knowledge so they still do exist. I think I know what you mean though and yes it would mean that everyone is agnostic. However I am a gnostic atheist in regards to the Christian god. I know it doesn't exist as the bible has been refuted time and time again to the point that even if it is referring to the same god it wouldn't be the christian god anymore. As for the deist position I am agnostic as I cannot prove or disprove it's existence. However I'm still atheist as i don't believe it to be true.     

Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #225 on: March 14, 2012, 12:21:52 PM »
That doesn't mean they're applicable. What does it mean to say "If A=B and B=C then A=C" if you're outside of any actual existence, i.e the universe?
I think you might be in error here. I don't think that existence is space-dependent. There may not be tangible existence outside space, but abstract objects (e.g. numbers) are not bound by space.

Where is your evidence that numbers are things that exist without the humans to think of them?
Statements of math were true before humans came on the scene. Are you prepared to shoulder the burden of proof that this is NOT the case?

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And once again, it's worth mentioning that these are hardly 'truths'. The fact that the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180 degrees is only 'true' when you hold Euclid's Postulates to be true, one of which we already know doesn't have to be.
What do you mean by this? I'm not familiar with it. And even if one of the postulates wasn't true in non-space, then why should that affect other mathematical truths that aren't dependent on Euclid's Postulates in non-space?

The point is, how many other so-called "truths" go out the window when no longer in our universe?

rumborak

Easy, you just have to determine the truths that are universe-dependent. One of these geometric postulates is one of them. Okay, I'll concede that doesn't have to be true outside the universe. But it doesn't follow that therefore every postulate needs to be tossed out.

Regarding the agnosticism as a measurement of probability of knowledge.......what. Look, bottom line is if you believe in the nonexistence of God, you should have a reason not to. If you want to believe in the improbability of the existence of God, you need a reason to believe that, too.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #226 on: March 14, 2012, 12:41:22 PM »
Anyway, this discussion of what it is like outside the universe is 1) off-topic, and 2) unnecessary. If an explanation is the best, you don't need an explanation of that explanation. So far no one has shown either of the premises to to Kalam Cosmological argument to be false, and if the premises are true, the conclusion logically follows no matter what, unless you are willing to deny logic itself. Which is evidently what's happening.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #227 on: March 14, 2012, 12:45:14 PM »
What page was that argument on again?

Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #228 on: March 14, 2012, 12:50:04 PM »
Dunno, but I'll post it again.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #229 on: March 14, 2012, 12:51:49 PM »
Dunno, but I'll post it again.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The problem is, as of right now we can't prove 2 true.
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #230 on: March 14, 2012, 12:59:25 PM »
Dunno, but I'll post it again.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Sure, I have no problem with that. It's when people start to define that cause with fervency is when I usually have a problem. If you recall though the Kalam Cosmological argument is used to shoehorn a god into there. Also we would have to make sure the definitions of universe are the same. Such as is the Universe the current state of matter in existence or are you talking about everything before the big bang and beyond the edge of the matter in our universe.

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #231 on: March 14, 2012, 01:01:32 PM »
Dunno, but I'll post it again.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The problem is, as of right now we can't prove 2 true.

Premise 2.) needn't be proven, it simply has to be more plausibly true than false in order to be accepted. That said, though, as any sincere seeker of truth will admit to (as do most reputable scientist), there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that points to our universe having begun to exist.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #232 on: March 14, 2012, 01:01:58 PM »
Dunno, but I'll post it again.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Sure, I have no problem with that. It's when people start to define that cause with fervency is when I usually have a problem. If you recall though the Kalam Cosmological argument is used to shoehorn a god into there. Also we would have to make sure the definitions of universe are the same. Such as is the Universe the current state of matter in existence or are you talking about everything before the big bang and beyond the edge of the matter in our universe.
Based on this argument alone, what attributes or characteristics would you give to the cause?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #233 on: March 14, 2012, 01:03:32 PM »
Dunno, but I'll post it again.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Sure, I have no problem with that. It's when people start to define that cause with fervency is when I usually have a problem. If you recall though the Kalam Cosmological argument is used to shoehorn a god into there. Also we would have to make sure the definitions of universe are the same. Such as is the Universe the current state of matter in existence or are you talking about everything before the big bang and beyond the edge of the matter in our universe.
Based on this argument alone, what attributes or characteristics would you give to the cause?

Well basic terms, would be something happened to give rise to it.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #234 on: March 14, 2012, 01:04:15 PM »
Dunno, but I'll post it again.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Sure, I have no problem with that. It's when people start to define that cause with fervency is when I usually have a problem. If you recall though the Kalam Cosmological argument is used to shoehorn a god into there. Also we would have to make sure the definitions of universe are the same. Such as is the Universe the current state of matter in existence or are you talking about everything before the big bang and beyond the edge of the matter in our universe.
Based on this argument alone, what attributes or characteristics would you give to the cause?

Well basic terms, would be something happened to give rise to it.
I can't figure out what you're saying.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Omega

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #235 on: March 14, 2012, 01:05:48 PM »
I believe he's saying "what caused the first uncaused cause, then?"
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #236 on: March 14, 2012, 01:10:10 PM »
Something happened to give rise to the universe, and that was the cause of our current universe. That's why it's important to get the definitions out there.

Offline Omega

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #237 on: March 14, 2012, 01:13:40 PM »
Something happened to give rise to the universe, and that was the cause of our current universe. That's why it's important to get the definitions out there.

Would you say that this cause could just as well be God?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #238 on: March 14, 2012, 01:16:35 PM »
Something happened to give rise to the universe, and that was the cause of our current universe. That's why it's important to get the definitions out there.

That's what I'm saying - the universe has a cause. But I'm asking you if there are any necessary attributes that this cause must have?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #239 on: March 14, 2012, 01:19:35 PM »
Something happened to give rise to the universe, and that was the cause of our current universe. That's why it's important to get the definitions out there.

Would you say that this cause could just as well be God?

Could be a deist god, I find it unlikely, given the laws of physics.

Something happened to give rise to the universe, and that was the cause of our current universe. That's why it's important to get the definitions out there.

That's what I'm saying - the universe has a cause. But I'm asking you if there are any necessary attributes that this cause must have?


It existed, that's as far as anyone can go.

Offline Omega

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #240 on: March 14, 2012, 01:24:20 PM »
Would you say that this cause could just as well be God?

Could be a deist god, I find it unlikely, given the laws of physics.

Please explain...? How do the laws of physics make (a) God's existence unlikely? The laws of physics are an observation, a feature, of our universe and sans (in the absence of) the universe, they do not govern anything and do not exist.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #241 on: March 14, 2012, 01:29:59 PM »
It existed, that's as far as anyone can go.
I think you can go farther and say that if we define the universe as something that contains all time and space, that a cause which existed without the universe must therefore be non-spatial and non-temporal. Do you disagree with that?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #242 on: March 14, 2012, 01:34:55 PM »
Would you say that this cause could just as well be God?

Could be a deist god, I find it unlikely, given the laws of physics.

Please explain...? How do the laws of physics make (a) God's existence unlikely? The laws of physics are an observation, a feature, of our universe and sans (in the absence of) the universe, they do not govern anything and do not exist.

Matter can arise from empty space, which is part of the Big Bang theory. In fact the Big Bang theory explains how our universe came to be using physics, natural processes. A natural process is more likely than an unnatural one, especially one that is intelligent.

I might be able to answer this better when I read a Universe From Nothing. I may pick up Steven hawkings new book to.

It existed, that's as far as anyone can go.
I think you can go farther and say that if we define the universe as something that contains all time and space, that a cause which existed without the universe must therefore be non-spatial and non-temporal. Do you disagree with that?

I don't necessarily agree. We have no other examples of how universes come to be to come to. We might be treading into M-theory. So I still say all we can say is there was an existent cause.

Offline Omega

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #243 on: March 14, 2012, 02:09:54 PM »
Would you say that this cause could just as well be God?

Could be a deist god, I find it unlikely, given the laws of physics.

Please explain...? How do the laws of physics make (a) God's existence unlikely? The laws of physics are an observation, a feature, of our universe and sans (in the absence of) the universe, they do not govern anything and do not exist.

Matter can arise from empty space, which is part of the Big Bang theory. In fact the Big Bang theory explains how our universe came to be using physics, natural processes. A natural process is more likely than an unnatural one, especially one that is intelligent.

I might be able to answer this better when I read a Universe From Nothing. I may pick up Steven hawkings new book to.

I'm afraid you have a very misguided understanding of the Big Bang theory. The Big Bang theory simply states that as you trace the expansion of the universe back in time, everything gets closer and closer together. Eventually, you reach a point in which the distance between any two points is 0. You reach the boundary of space and time. Space and time can't be extended any further back than that. It's literally the beginning of space and time. Because space-time is the arena in which all matter and energy exist, the beginning of space-time is also the beginning of all matter and energy. It's the beginning of the universe. There is simply nothing prior to the initial boundary of space-time. There is not any state of affairs prior to it. And by that I mean there is literally nothing prior to it, not empty space, not some prior state of affairs - nothing. So it is simply gravely untrue to state both that the Big Bang model "proves matter can arise from empty space" or that "the Big Bang explains how our universe came to be using physics".

Again, your claim that "matter can arise form empty space" is simply misconceived; many skeptics, including Krauss, claim that subatomic particles come into being from "nothing." Yet this is a blatant abuse of science; the theories in question have to do with particles originating as a fluctuation of the energy contained in a quantum vacuum. The vacuum, however, is often deliberately proclaimed as "nothing" by skeptical theorizes such as Krauss. Properly understood, "nothing" does not mean empty space or a quantum vacuum; nothing is the absence of anything whatsoever, including space itself. As such, nothingness has no has literally no properties at all, since there isn't anything to have any properties. This is why it is so silly for scientific and atheistic popularizers to utter things like "nothingness is unstable" or "the universe tunneled into being out of nothing." Steven Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow make a similarly absurd statement in their recent book, The Grand Design, by proclaiming that "because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing." Ignore for the moment the incoherence of the notion of self-causation. Put to one side the question of whether the physics of their account is correct. Forget about where the laws of physics themselves are supposed to have come from. Just savor the manifest contradiction: The universe comes from nothing, because a law like gravity is responsible for the universe.

Frankly, I'd recommend you to save your money and pass on buying any of Krauss' or Hawking's recent literary endeavors.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #244 on: March 14, 2012, 02:26:21 PM »
many skeptics, including Krauss, claim that subatomic particles come into being from "nothing." Yet this is a blatant abuse of science; the theories in question have to do with particles originating as a fluctuation of the energy contained in a quantum vacuum.

Not so. In fact, the universe can "borrow" energy from itself, energy that wasn't there, as long as it pays back in time. The particles emerging aren't coming from some random sloshing around of existing energy.

So, Omega, care to address yesterday's point? Why can't the universe have created God?

rumborak
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 02:47:46 PM by rumborak »
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