Porcupine Tree v. Glarung is a Lightbulb

[Zantera]

Setlist looks alright but what really makes me jelly is that they played the best song from Deadwing for the first time since 2007.

[KevShmev]

Was just watching the interview, and I had to wonder if SW was taking a subtle dig at DT here:
https://youtu.be/BtPm_kFtJ0Q?t=620

I doubt he actively listen to Dream Theater in order to think, "they are doing the same album over and over," but I think it goes without saying that Wilson is irked by bands who are safe and afraid to take chances.

[Mladen]

He could be talking about dozens and dozens of bands.

And yet, Porcupine Tree just released an album that isn't unlike their earlier work in any way. 

[HOF]

He could be talking about dozens and dozens of bands.

And yet, Porcupine Tree just released an album that isn't unlike their earlier work in any way. 

Yeah, I don’t see Wilson as some super innovative guy who makes radically different music from album to album. It all still sounds like him.

[The Letter M]

He could be talking about dozens and dozens of bands.

And yet, Porcupine Tree just released an album that isn't unlike their earlier work in any way. 

Yeah, I don’t see Wilson as some super innovative guy who makes radically different music from album to album. It all still sounds like him.

Maybe he's just sour that he tried something different for his last solo album and fans didn't like it. I mean, it still sounds like SW, for the most part, but just the stylistic changes just didn't sit well with some folks.

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

He could be talking about dozens and dozens of bands.

And yet, Porcupine Tree just released an album that isn't unlike their earlier work in any way. 

Yeah, I don’t see Wilson as some super innovative guy who makes radically different music from album to album. It all still sounds like him.

Well, yeah, the personality of his writing is always going to come out in his music, but he is better than most at changing it up and shifting stylistically.  He has six solo albums now, and it is hard to imagine one thinking that The Future Bites sounds like Grace for Drowning or The Raven...

[hefdaddy42]

Uh, taped bass, not sure how I feel about that, but probably better than to cancel the show. If I were there I would have hoped for a replacement bass player, but maybe they couldn't get one on short notice.

Yeah, because Edwin couldn't do it.... 

Was just watching the interview, and I had to wonder if SW was taking a subtle dig at DT here:
https://youtu.be/BtPm_kFtJ0Q?t=620

Doubtful.  I doubt he thinks about DT enough to want to take a dig at them.

He could be talking about almost any band.  Or really, most bands.

[HOF]

He could be talking about dozens and dozens of bands.

And yet, Porcupine Tree just released an album that isn't unlike their earlier work in any way. 

Yeah, I don’t see Wilson as some super innovative guy who makes radically different music from album to album. It all still sounds like him.

Well, yeah, the personality of his writing is always going to come out in his music, but he is better than most at changing it up and shifting stylistically.  He has six solo albums now, and it is hard to imagine one thinking that The Future Bites sounds like Grace for Drowning or The Raven...

I'll give you that The Future Bites is pretty different. But for the most part I've never felt that there was a ton of difference between his solo stuff and PT or Blackfield for instance (obviously there is some).

[Kram]

He could be talking about dozens and dozens of bands.

And yet, Porcupine Tree just released an album that isn't unlike their earlier work in any way. 

Yeah, I don’t see Wilson as some super innovative guy who makes radically different music from album to album. It all still sounds like him.

Maybe he's just sour that he tried something different for his last solo album and fans didn't like it. I mean, it still sounds like SW, for the most part, but just the stylistic changes just didn't sit well with some folks.

-Marc.

He certainly sounds a bit bitter doesn't he?  Maybe you're on to something here. 

Yes, he's not talking about DT - there's TONS of bands who do the same thing over and over.  If anything I think DT has changed it up a bit anyway.  A View is certainly different than the Astonishing, and certaily different than let's say A Dramatic Turn of Events.

And yes, killer setlist (minus no bass player). I love me some Open Car!

[Samsara]

I love Porcupine Tree since I discovered them through a friend in 2002. The first album from them I ever bought was In Absentia. Then I picked up Stupid Dream, and was hooked through The Incident, which I felt, as has been well documented, was very subpar. Closure/Continuation was pretty good, although I have to admit, I don't go back to it much.

I say all this to say - fuck Steven Wilson. That guy thinks way too highly of himself. He has his fans, and I am one of them (to a degree), but the more and more he speaks, the more I dislike him. yes, we all fucking know that PT started as a solo thing for him, and he ended up incorporating musicians he liked. Well, guess what? It became a band, and yes, that requires some sacrifice on SW's part. So what's he do when he gets some pushback from said band? Shelves the fucking thing for a decade.    Okay, dude, whatever. But then, once you realize your last solo album was not as highly regarded as the ones before it (interest waning from folks with each release), you revive PT, cut out the bassist people love, the touring guitarist people love, and throw a bone to Gavin and Richard so they feel more involved in the process and make a bit more money. Well, I guess helping Gavin and Richard is good, but giving the middle finger to Colin and John? Really? And now, with all the talk about "well, PT may not be back" talk, SW is up to the same BS. He isn't in full "control" as much as he likes, and the band will likely go away again (until he needs more money).

SW can do whatever he wants - great songwriter, good musician, excellent engineer, mixer, and producer. But he really needs to check his fucking ego at the door. I expect a little bit out of a frontman, but it seems folks built him up so much as this "prog God," that he drank the Kool Aid and now believes his shit doesn't stink.

The music of Porcupine Tree (most of it) is timeless. And I appreciate that. But holy fuck SW needs to get his fucking ass kicked and be humbled a bit.

[KevShmev]

I love Porcupine Tree since I discovered them through a friend in 2002. The first album from them I ever bought was In Absentia. Then I picked up Stupid Dream, and was hooked through The Incident, which I felt, as has been well documented, was very subpar. Closure/Continuation was pretty good, although I have to admit, I don't go back to it much.

I say all this to say - fuck Steven Wilson. That guy thinks way too highly of himself. He has his fans, and I am one of them (to a degree), but the more and more he speaks, the more I dislike him. yes, we all fucking know that PT started as a solo thing for him, and he ended up incorporating musicians he liked. Well, guess what? It became a band, and yes, that requires some sacrifice on SW's part. So what's he do when he gets some pushback from said band? Shelves the fucking thing for a decade.    Okay, dude, whatever. But then, once you realize your last solo album was not as highly regarded as the ones before it (interest waning from folks with each release), you revive PT, cut out the bassist people love, the touring guitarist people love, and throw a bone to Gavin and Richard so they feel more involved in the process and make a bit more money. Well, I guess helping Gavin and Richard is good, but giving the middle finger to Colin and John? Really? And now, with all the talk about "well, PT may not be back" talk, SW is up to the same BS. He isn't in full "control" as much as he likes, and the band will likely go away again (until he needs more money).

SW can do whatever he wants - great songwriter, good musician, excellent engineer, mixer, and producer. But he really needs to check his fucking ego at the door. I expect a little bit out of a frontman, but it seems folks built him up so much as this "prog God," that he drank the Kool Aid and now believes his shit doesn't stink.

The music of Porcupine Tree (most of it) is timeless. And I appreciate that. But holy fuck SW needs to get his fucking ass kicked and be humbled a bit.

I can't say I agree with a lot of this.  In fact, I disagree strongly with a lot of it.

Wilson thinks too highly of himself?  I think his comments over the years about his vocal limitations and how he has downplayed his own guitar playing would indicate otherwise.

The touring guitarist people love?  Ugh, speak for yourself!   For one, John Wesley is a horrendous guitar player (at least when trying to play PT's material), so losing him in the touring band was addition by subtraction, and for two, he was never an official member of the band, so there should be zero griping about him being "replaced" in the live shows. 

I don't like how the Colin Edwin thing was handled, I will concede that one.

Interest was waning with each solo release?  Uh, what?  I am pretty sure he was playing to more people than ever before on the To the Bone tour IIRC.  The Future Bites wasn't a big success, but to suggest that interest was waning with each release seems like revisionist history.

[King Postwhore]

The Future Bites also came out right at the start of the pandemic and never tours for it. 

[Samsara]

Respectfully,

I really don't care if you or anyone agrees with me, Kev. That's not a slight at you, just saying that if I cared, I wouldn't post my opinions at DTF.

Yes, his solo tours are well attended - so people can see Porcupine Tree material. He knows it, you know it, everyone knows it. I'm not saying some of his solo material isn't good. Absolutely it is. But the draw is him playing PT material. If he said outright he wasn't playing any PT songs, and stuck to it, his attendance would drop by 25 percent, IMO. But it's not revisionist history to say that people have complained loudly about his last couple of solo releases. Very loudly, in fact, about the last one. And then his hardcore fanboys and fangirls sprang to his defense on the last record. Wilson knows where his bread is buttered. PT put him on the map. He hates that, but has conceded to a degree.

Wilson speaks with a gigantic ego. Small concessions don't make one humble. His voice is thin. This is fact. Everyone who has ever listened to him sing knows this, so it's really not self-degrading. It's just fact. It's fact that my voice is very one dimensional and I'm not very rangy. A solid baritone. If you want me to sing Billy Joel or Mark Tremonti, I'm your guy and will bring it and it'll sound good. But if you want me to sing "Pull Me Under" or "Caught in a Web," I'll get laughed out of the building. These are simply facts. Knowing and admitting one's limitations isn't being humble.  Bottom line - Steven Wilson holds himself in very high regard, and he makes sure people know it.

As for John, yes, some people "loved" John in PT. But even if manydidn't, he was part of the band's live presentation for so long. PT became something with him on the road with them, and Colin a part of that. Sure, change is change. It happens. And even if I concede on John, it doesn't excuse the way Colin's absence was handled.

[Nick]

Steven Wilson isn't Def Leppard, who could come out with a new album and not play a single song from it on that very same tour.

Coming into a Steven Wilson show I might hope to hear a PT favorite or two, just as I'd like to hear certain songs from any of his back catalog, be it Raven, Grace, or In Absentia.

But I go see a Steven Wilson, his music, and his production. And I've gone to a lot of SW shows over the years with a lot of different people and not one would I classify as being there as only wanting to hear PT material. And if you go to his shows for that reason you're either ignoring what he's likely to do, or just a glutton for punishment. His more recent tours are probably, in total set time, 20% PT material at most.

Edit: And now that I got an amazing PT fix last year, for his next solo tour I hope he focusses on TFB (which never got a tour), and his new album without too much older stuff, PT included)

[Samsara]

Yes, he should be playing his own solo material. Glad he is. Same with making sure he supports his new material - I believe in that, and I'm glad he does.

I just looked, randomly, at two shows from SW. In both shows, he played 20 songs. At one, he played five PT songs. (That's 25 percent, Nick) The other, he played seven tracks (35 percent). Those were from 2019 and 2018, respectively. For the hell of it, I went back another few years to 2012. he played 15 songs, with the last two being PT songs. So, in general, it seems when PT was very much inactive in 2019 and 2018, he dedicated between 25-35 percent of his set to PT. (total songs, not set time.)

For me, Steven Wilson is very full of himself. And while I am a fan of his work within PT, and a fan of some of his solo material, he comes across as very entitled and hoiler than thou. And I have a hard time with accepting that from a guy who owes almost his entire career to Porcupine Tree, and the people that made that band (other than him) what it was.

Edited for bad math.

[Nick]

I can see why Steven Wilson, especially in certain areas, grates on people. That said, there are a few things in this instance worth pointing out.

Steven Wilson is highly likely to have about the same amount of success with Porcupine Tree with a different bassist instead of Colin. The opposite can not be said.

We could either have a Porcupine Tree tour without Colin and 3 happy guys, or no new PT/tour at all. I'm glad the way they chose.

You could argue a band like DT owes all its success to the breakout of Images and Words, or that Neal Morse only got to where he is because of his work with Spock's Beard. Yet you go to any Neal Morse Band show now and you get 80% new album, 15% other Neal Morse stuff, and maybe one song from Spock's Beard in certain circumstances. It's not a diss to Spock's Beard in any way, but Neal has always been forward facing with most of his touring. Same with Steven Wilson. I don't think he doesn't appreciate Porcupine Tree or their success, but he's not about to dwell on that when there is always new music to make and promote.

[Zantera]

He definitely sounds a bit bitter but can you blame him? Look at his career and how hard he has worked between No-Man, PT, Blackfield, Bass Communion, IEM, working closely with Opeth for a few years, his solo career, all the albums he has mixed or done sound production on. And even though he's moderately big for his genre, he's now 55 and probably won't get much bigger than he is now. He has a loyal fanbase and he does better than a lot of other musicians, yet at the same time there's bands that almost stumble into bigger success with less effort than SW has put in, just because of a right place / right time / right music type situation. I can sympathize with him in that regard.

When it comes to bands staying the same for years versus bands that evolve and change, it's a discussion as old as time and I feel like it really boils down to the band itself. There's a bunch of variables to it, like can the band make multiple good albums in the same style? Are they capable of pulling something magical out of their bag if they try something drastically different? I don't know if a band like Iron Maiden are capable of doing something else than what they have been doing for 40 years, but as a fan I don't really want them to either. But then there's other bands where I kinda expect something fresh and I want it. And if they do "the same" again, I feel disappointed.

[The Letter M]

SW is also willing to accept change and embrace new ideas/ways, even if begrudgingly so. Anyone remember his whole iPod-smashing/anti-streaming & digital tirade many years ago? It felt like, IIRC, the only way to listen to his music was through physical media because anything else wouldn't do his music justice.

I believe he has since softened on his stance of "physical media is superior" and have given in to letting his music reach a wider audience via digital streaming. His mindsets are very much a product of his upbringing and the kinds of music he grew up listening to, so I don't blame him for not wanting to bend to popular opinion or an ever-changing and evolving marketplace.

-Marc.

[King Postwhore]

That was only the last few tours that he added PT to a higher percentage on tour.  Hey, he wrote it so why not play some. But, I always love when a band plays new material.  I feel most bands are better live when touring for a new album. 

[Kram]

I think his solo career peaked with Hand. Cannot. Erase.  Not that the last two albums have been bad (I really like To The Bone, not so much TFB), but it peaked with HCE IMO. Could some of that have to do with the disbanding of that AMAZING band (well the situation with Guthrie and Marco)? Well maybe but he’d never admit that. The replacements have all been excellent players in their own rights - but there was something magical about Govan, Minnemann, Beggs, Holzman and let’s not forget Theo Davis together.

[Samsara]

I think his solo career peaked with Hand. Cannot. Erase.  Not that the last two albums have been bad (I really like To The Bone, not so much TFB), but it peaked with HCE IMO. Could some of that have to do with the disbanding of that AMAZING band (well the situation with Guthrie and Marco)? Well maybe but he’d never admit that. The replacements have all been excellent players in their own rights - but there was something magical about Govan, Minnemann, Beggs, Holzman and let’s not forget Theo Davis together.

Guthrie is an AMAZING guitarist. I saw him with Hans Zimmer several years back when Zimmer was out touring all his film score. My jaw hit the floor. I was aware that Guthrie toured with SW on...I think it was the Raven tour, correct? But man, what a crazy good guitarist. One of the best I've ever seen. And obviously, Minnemann is a phenomenal drummer.

Nick: I'm also glad we got a new PT tour. I had a great time. Band was great. I'd never argue that. But that's not what the point of my rant was. It was about how Steven comes across and the man's overwhelming (exhausting) vision of himself. Trust me, I wouldn't give back the C/C tour for anything. I had a great time in San Francisco seeing PT.

[KevShmev]

I blame the way Wilson comes across as "he is just very British." (kidding, sort of)

I don't buy that his solo tours are well attended because people want to hear Porcupine Tree material.  Like Nick said, when you buy into Steven Wilson, you buy into the man and his music and whatever comes your way.  I saw him on The Raven tour, where he played one (count it, ONE) Porcupine Tree song, and that was with only having three solo albums of material at that point.

What others have brought to Porcupine Tree is substantial, no doubt about it, but Wilson was, is and will always be the straw the stirs the Porcupine Tree drink.  So, yeah, that band made him what he is, and he wrote 99% of the material that band did without help from the others.  Perhaps I place a higher value on songwriting than others, but Wilson's prolific career as a songwriter speaks for itself, and that includes his time with Porcupine Tree.

I just think he takes a very artistic approach, which I know can come off as being a little pretentious, but being at least a bit pretentious and a true artist kind of go hand in hand, no?

[HOF]

I've shared a lot of Samsara's feelings about Steven Wilson in the past, but more recently I tend to see him as just kind of socially awkward, a bit prone to say things in interviews without realizing how they sound, and yeah also British. Listening to his podcast helped my impression of him somewhat just cause I have a better understanding of his sense of humor.

I also disagree that he's not popular in his own right as a solo artist. Arguably he's bigger than ever in the prog world as a solo artist, at least overseas. I don't think he has much impact in the states, but in the UK he's closer to a household name.

[Kram]

I blame the  ;Dway Wilson comes across as "he is just very British." (kidding, sort of)

I don't buy that his solo tours are well attended because people want to hear Porcupine Tree material.  Like Nick said, when you buy into Steven Wilson, you buy into the man and his music and whatever comes your way.  I saw him on The Raven tour, where he played one (count it, ONE) Porcupine Tree song, and that was with only having three solo albums of material at that point.
 ; ;
What others have brought to Porcupine Tree is substantial, no doubt about it, but Wilson was, is and will always be the straw the stirs the Porcupine Tree drink.  So, yeah, that band made him what he is, and he wrote 99% of the material that band did without help from the others.  Perhaps I place a higher value on songwriting than others, but Wilson's prolific career as a songwriter speaks for itself, and that includes his time with Porcupine Tree.

I just think he takes a very artistic approach, which I know can come off as being a little pretentious, but being at least a bit pretentious and a true artist kind of go hand in hand, no?

That’s a no. Says the beer scientists Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson. Lol

[KevShmev]

Who said Alex and Geddy were true artists? 

[Kram]

Who said Alex and Geddy were true artists? 

Who said they were real beer scientists? Lol

[Zantera]

Call me cynical but I always chalked up the PT reunion to being something more than just "we felt like making another album again". I think you could argue that his solo career had been growing album by album and even though you can discuss in which order you like the albums, it definitely felt like every tour and album got bigger and better reception than the previous up until HCE. I would say even To The Bone, which despite maybe getting a bit weaker reviews than HCE, still got a lot of positive buzz and it felt like another solid entry in his discography.

The Future Bites while not a bad album was really his first album in a long time where the reception felt a bit lukewarm. You have people who liked it a lot and it wasn't a disaster by any means, but a lot of people also didn't care for it that much. It is his weakest solo album by a margin IMO. It felt like Steven was ready to take a step into the mainstream and get bigger, but it felt like a lot of fans pulled back and said "I don't care for Steven the pop artist, I want my prog" - which is fine. After all it's a genre he's been the face of for decades now. It just felt like more than a coincidence to me that he just happened to feel like dusting off and bringing back PT with a new album - to much hype, in the wake of The Future Bites coming out and almost being forgotten instantly.

[KevShmev]

I agree with a lot of that, Zantera.  I do think there was probably a bit of monetary motivation on SW's part to roll the the Porcupine Tree flag up the pole again, as he took a bath on the cancellation of The Future Bites tour (he reportedly had to eat the production costs for a tour that didn't end up happening), and I have no problem with that.  He knew a new PT album and tour would be a good profit for them all, and it's obvious that he really likes working with Richard and Gavin, and the fans wanted it, so it was win-win.

With To the Bone, I seem to recall pretty positive reviews overall. They weren't as glowing as the ones for The Raven or HCE, but that was because a lot of of prog fans lost their minds over Permanating, so I would submit that any negativity around that album said more about the fans than it did about the material.  Granted, I am a huge To the Bone fan (I likely rank it a lot higher in SW's overall catalogue than the average fan does), but the reaction of some fans was so weird.  It was like they were personally insulted that Wilson had the nerve to write and release a song like Permanating.  I hope he keeps playing that song on every solo tour going forward. 

[Schurftkut]

I saw the HCE and TTB tours, and the only reason i didn't want to go see him on the TFB tour was because he was going to play much bigger venues, which i don't like to go to for liveshows.
Liking the latest album didn't even come to mind in that decision.

[King Postwhore]

Saw him in 2,000 + seat arenas solo. With PT, we saw him in a 5,000 brand new seat arena. No surprise.   PT is a brand that fans want. We all know how that works.

STP in the late 90's got a new singer and called themselves Talk Show.  Went nowhere and went back to STP.

Why?  People are lazy and only know brand names.

[jammindude]

I don’t think it’s quite so simple as him being arrogant. I honestly think that Steven Wilson is on the spectrum. And not just in a quirky sort of way. I mean that my opinion is that he IS AUTISTIC.  As such, that would mean that he is just isn’t capable of grasping the way most people do things.

Maybe I’m not explaining it very well. But it’s like if Sheldon from Big Bang Theory happened to be a musician instead of a scientist. I think he’s honestly confused as to why people think that certain behaviors are considered “arrogant” or “rude”.  So I give him a bit of a pass on those behaviors.

I do think that his popularity as a solo artist was growing exponentially through the first four albums. And TTB had him poised to take on the mainstream. And with Reality Bites I think he had hopes of being the next David Bowie. I also think that if the tour had been spectacular, he might have crossed over into more mainstream fans. But the pandemic killed the whole thing, and I guess I can understand his frustration from that angle. While I may not have agreed with the direction, I can see what he was trying to do and I would be frustrated if I felt like things were heading in a direction exactly the way I planned and then were instantly axed by extenuating circumstances.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, it would have been interesting to see how The Future Bites would have done had it been released on schedule. I think it not coming out till like 10 months after Personal Shopper was released killed any momentum it could have had building up to the original June 2020 release. Plus, I think four of the songs ended up getting released with videos before TFB was finally released in January 2021, so over half of the album was out there before the album dropped.  My guess is he was trying to build momentum back up prior to the release, but because the album was such a departure cosmetically from his previous solo albums (it is not that different stylistically, but the cosmetic pop elements made it feel like a pop album, which is probably heresy to his more hardcore prog fans), a lot of would-be fans of the album were lost before it was even released.

[Ben_Jamin]

Call me cynical but I always chalked up the PT reunion to being something more than just "we felt like making another album again". I think you could argue that his solo career had been growing album by album and even though you can discuss in which order you like the albums, it definitely felt like every tour and album got bigger and better reception than the previous up until HCE. I would say even To The Bone, which despite maybe getting a bit weaker reviews than HCE, still got a lot of positive buzz and it felt like another solid entry in his discography.

The Future Bites while not a bad album was really his first album in a long time where the reception felt a bit lukewarm. You have people who liked it a lot and it wasn't a disaster by any means, but a lot of people also didn't care for it that much. It is his weakest solo album by a margin IMO. It felt like Steven was ready to take a step into the mainstream and get bigger, but it felt like a lot of fans pulled back and said "I don't care for Steven the pop artist, I want my prog" - which is fine. After all it's a genre he's been the face of for decades now. It just felt like more than a coincidence to me that he just happened to feel like dusting off and bringing back PT with a new album - to much hype, in the wake of The Future Bites coming out and almost being forgotten instantly.

You also got to consider just how much financially he took a loss at not being able to tour.

[Fonzie]

What do don’t understand about SW is his frustration at not being taken seriously as a ‘pop star’ - he went on talk shows and gave interviews expressing his resentment etc

Does he not realise that pop stars establish themselves when they are young, sexy, and appealing.
Sorry Steve, you always looked like a dork with lank hair, and as a ‘pop’ song, Permanating simply isn’t catchy enough to win the casual radio listener

If that sounds shallow, well, of course it is. That’s ‘Pop’.

As a serious musician however, he’s almost unparalleled in the last 20 years. I am quite the fan. But I wouldn’t put a Steven Wilson poster on my wall.

[jammindude]

What do don’t understand about SW is his frustration at not being taken seriously as a ‘pop star’ - he went on talk shows and gave interviews expressing his resentment etc

Does he not realise that pop stars establish themselves when they are young, sexy, and appealing.
Sorry Steve, you always looked like a dork with lank hair, and as a ‘pop’ song, Permanating simply isn’t catchy enough to win the casual radio listener

If that sounds shallow, well, of course it is. That’s ‘Pop’.

As a serious musician however, he’s almost unparalleled in the last 20 years. I am quite the fan. But I wouldn’t put a Steven Wilson poster on my wall.

Phil Collins would like a word.