Porcupine Tree v. Glarung is a Lightbulb

[The Letter M]

Dignity reminds me of Christenings from Blackfield II a lot, both in its vibe and its lyrical themes. I like Dignity more though.

"Christenings" is practically a PT song anyway, originally written for Deadwing, and the recorded/released version features Richard and Gavin, both of whom are the remaining members of PT. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they pulled that song out for the tour, despite it originally being released by Blackfield. It would be a fun surprise!

-Marc.

[jammindude]

As I sense myself listening to a lot of PT this summer with the new album, and my likely pattern to keep up of revisiting a lot of the old stuff after a favorite releases a new record, they are very likely to be the next countdown thread I do once Iron Maiden is finished in 2-3 weeks.

I assume we have plenty here who would be down for a top 50 or 75? 

The bitch of course will be remembering every song since they have so many non-album tracks. 

I’m down for that. That would actually be interesting.

I’d almost recommend one other band before PT to give C/C some time to settle in.  Savatage maybe? But maybe you’re not into them.

[Kram]

Am I the only one loving Of The New Day?  I know it was the 2nd single released, and I only listed to it once and didn't pay much attention to it.  But now having the full album, I'm loving this song.

[Zantera]

I am still not sure if I like Harridan, but the rest is sounding pretty great. 

I've quite grown to love Harridan but I think it's unfortunate IMO that the weakest part of it is the 'chorus' and that kinda puts a limit on how high I could rate the song overall even though I love the rest in it. (By chorus I mean the when we bite the dust part)

[KevShmev]

I’m down for that. That would actually be interesting.

I’d almost recommend one other band before PT to give C/C some time to settle in.  Savatage maybe? But maybe you’re not into them.

Well, similar to the DT one, with the new album being so new, it would be another "the new songs are not part of the countdown yet" thing with regards to PT.

I don't listen to that other band and have zero interest in doing so (tried them years ago, no thanks).

[ReaperKK]

I assume we have plenty here who would be down for a top 50 or 75? 

The bitch of course will be remembering every song since they have so many non-album tracks. 

Oh fuck yes. I hope you do include the non-album tracks because some of them (like chloroform) are among my favorites.

[KevShmev]

The early non-album tracks are the ones where I will struggle to remember them all, and the bad part is that it will make the spreadsheet super long and more time-consuming to update.  And then we get into the annoying part of having the original Even Less and then the long version from Recordings.  Ugh, I may have to ponder how I will do this one. 

[KevShmev]

Meanwhile, I adore that main musical melody in Love in the Past Tense.  That is great stuff.

[ErHaO]

The early non-album tracks are the ones where I will struggle to remember them all, and the bad part is that it will make the spreadsheet super long and more time-consuming to update.  And then we get into the annoying part of having the original Even Less and then the long version from Recordings.  Ugh, I may have to ponder how I will do this one.

Perhaps this is of help: http://www.voyage-pt.de/swdisco.pdf (a document via his official site)

Should list every release, including digital only single releases.

[nobloodyname]

I assume we have plenty here who would be down for a top 50 or 75? 

I'd certainly be up for it although - and I guess this might be an unpopular opinion - I'd like to see Steven Wilson's solo output included.

Re Of the New Day, the melody absolutely tugs at my heart strings. And the lyrics are so applicable to my current circumstances. At some point, I will probably end up balling my eyes out (I'm okay, honestly, it's just a big change coming) and it won't surprise me if this track is the catalyst.

[KevShmev]

The early non-album tracks are the ones where I will struggle to remember them all, and the bad part is that it will make the spreadsheet super long and more time-consuming to update.  And then we get into the annoying part of having the original Even Less and then the long version from Recordings.  Ugh, I may have to ponder how I will do this one.

Perhaps this is of help: http://www.voyage-pt.de/swdisco.pdf (a document via his official site)

Should list every release, including digital only single releases.

Cool, thanks!

I'd certainly be up for it although - and I guess this might be an unpopular opinion - I'd like to see Steven Wilson's solo output included.

Nah. Two different things (the earliest PT stuff, which basically was solo SW, aside).

[romdrums]

I'm really liking the album so far.  I have no idea where I'd rank it within their discography, but I'm really liking it.  Gavin's drumming is fantastic throughout, and I can really tell that he had significant input on these songs.  It definitely has a band feel to it. 

[Zantera]

Not sure if this was posted but a pretty good interview with SW: https://www.undertheradarmag.com/interviews/porcupine_trees_steven_wilson_on_closure_continuation
That also might solve the Colin discussion. Here's both what SW says and what Colin said:

SW:

The simple reason is that when we started making the record back in 2012, myself and Gavin started to work on ideas. I picked up the bass and it wasn’t like, “I’m going to be the bass player on this record.” Colin’s not going to get a look. It wasn’t anything as self-conscious as that. It was simply I think I was already a bit bored with the guitar at that point. So I reached over and I picked up the bass and I started to play the bass line to “Harridan.” We came up with that, that groove in five, which kind of not uncoincidentally opens the record, because I think they straight away there’s a kind of what shall we say, a kind of statement of intent right at the beginning of the record. This is not going to be the same old, same old.

The bedrock of the whole record really became the way I “play bass,” but allied with the fact that I was jamming these grooves with Gavin. So whole chunks of the record, you know, the “Harridan” song was all written—even the chorus was written on bass. “Rats Return,” the big heavy riff actually was written on the bass. “Chimera’s Wreck,” all written on the bass. So these songs which were started way back in 2012, 2013, that became the sort of the foundations of the record were written with me playing bass. And I played bass in a very different way to Colin. I played bass like a guitar player because I am a guitar player. I pick it up and I start playing melodies up the top and I play chords and I play things that “proper bass players” probably wouldn’t think to play. So there was no great conspiracy. We just got to a point where we realized, “Oh, Steven’s going to be the bass player on this record.” From that point on, it was just, “Okay, so it’s the three of us now.”

I would also say that I think, and this is not just me being pragmatic or looking back in hindsight—and no disrespect to Colin, he’s a fantastic player—the creative core of the band was always Gavin, Richard, and myself anyway. If you listen to the sound of the band going back certainly from the In Absentia days onwards, it was Gavin’s approach to drums, his very polyrhythmic technical approach to drums, Richard’s sound design and use of texture and ambiance. Both of those things filtered through my songwriting aesthetic.

We don’t have Colin on the record, but neither do we have anyone else on the record, which is something that you can’t say of any Porcupine Tree record going back a long time. There’s always been guests, whether it’s been string arrangers or guest vocalists or guest guitar solos. There’s no sound on this record that isn’t made by myself, Richard or Gavin. No engineers— actually Paul Stacey helped me a little bit with guitars later on—but apart from that, it was part of the very, very latter stages of the recording and mixing process. But we really just made the record in our own studios. Just the three of us without anyone else knew we were doing it.

Colin:

Asked for comment, Edwin responded by email: “We hadn’t fallen out or anything, and were in contact occasionally about various things, reissues mainly, or odd business things, but there had long been no indication or hint of any new band activity, writing sessions or any possibility of reactivation. My band O.R.k toured with Pineapple Thief in 2019, we all got on fine and there was no mention at all from Gavin about any possible new PT stuff, certainly nothing from anyone else. So it was a surprise to me in March 2021, in lockdown, to get an email from Steve telling me there’s a new album and as he’s already played all the bass parts there’s ‘no role for me.’ Soon after that Steve’s lawyer gets in touch. I have had no real contact from anyone since.”

So yeah two quite different takes on it. My own interpretation was that the other 3 guys simply didn't want to include him again (possibly due to that rumored falling out between him and Richard) and they simply choose to move forward without him. We can speculate if his presence would add something to the album or not, but personally I really like the album and I don't think I would have enjoyed it much more if Colin was on it. In the end it turned out good.

[Kram]

Re Of the New Day, the melody absolutely tugs at my heart strings. And the lyrics are so applicable to my current circumstances. At some point, I will probably end up balling my eyes out (I'm okay, honestly, it's just a big change coming) and it won't surprise me if this track is the catalyst.

Same here, lyrics hit home.

[Kram]

Not sure if this was posted but a pretty good interview with SW: https://www.undertheradarmag.com/interviews/porcupine_trees_steven_wilson_on_closure_continuation
That also might solve the Colin discussion. Here's both what SW says and what Colin said:

SW:

The simple reason is that when we started making the record back in 2012, myself and Gavin started to work on ideas. I picked up the bass and it wasn’t like, “I’m going to be the bass player on this record.” Colin’s not going to get a look. It wasn’t anything as self-conscious as that. It was simply I think I was already a bit bored with the guitar at that point. So I reached over and I picked up the bass and I started to play the bass line to “Harridan.” We came up with that, that groove in five, which kind of not uncoincidentally opens the record, because I think they straight away there’s a kind of what shall we say, a kind of statement of intent right at the beginning of the record. This is not going to be the same old, same old.

The bedrock of the whole record really became the way I “play bass,” but allied with the fact that I was jamming these grooves with Gavin. So whole chunks of the record, you know, the “Harridan” song was all written—even the chorus was written on bass. “Rats Return,” the big heavy riff actually was written on the bass. “Chimera’s Wreck,” all written on the bass. So these songs which were started way back in 2012, 2013, that became the sort of the foundations of the record were written with me playing bass. And I played bass in a very different way to Colin. I played bass like a guitar player because I am a guitar player. I pick it up and I start playing melodies up the top and I play chords and I play things that “proper bass players” probably wouldn’t think to play. So there was no great conspiracy. We just got to a point where we realized, “Oh, Steven’s going to be the bass player on this record.” From that point on, it was just, “Okay, so it’s the three of us now.”

I would also say that I think, and this is not just me being pragmatic or looking back in hindsight—and no disrespect to Colin, he’s a fantastic player—the creative core of the band was always Gavin, Richard, and myself anyway. If you listen to the sound of the band going back certainly from the In Absentia days onwards, it was Gavin’s approach to drums, his very polyrhythmic technical approach to drums, Richard’s sound design and use of texture and ambiance. Both of those things filtered through my songwriting aesthetic.

We don’t have Colin on the record, but neither do we have anyone else on the record, which is something that you can’t say of any Porcupine Tree record going back a long time. There’s always been guests, whether it’s been string arrangers or guest vocalists or guest guitar solos. There’s no sound on this record that isn’t made by myself, Richard or Gavin. No engineers— actually Paul Stacey helped me a little bit with guitars later on—but apart from that, it was part of the very, very latter stages of the recording and mixing process. But we really just made the record in our own studios. Just the three of us without anyone else knew we were doing it.

Colin:

Asked for comment, Edwin responded by email: “We hadn’t fallen out or anything, and were in contact occasionally about various things, reissues mainly, or odd business things, but there had long been no indication or hint of any new band activity, writing sessions or any possibility of reactivation. My band O.R.k toured with Pineapple Thief in 2019, we all got on fine and there was no mention at all from Gavin about any possible new PT stuff, certainly nothing from anyone else. So it was a surprise to me in March 2021, in lockdown, to get an email from Steve telling me there’s a new album and as he’s already played all the bass parts there’s ‘no role for me.’ Soon after that Steve’s lawyer gets in touch. I have had no real contact from anyone since.”

So yeah two quite different takes on it. My own interpretation was that the other 3 guys simply didn't want to include him again (possibly due to that rumored falling out between him and Richard) and they simply choose to move forward without him. We can speculate if his presence would add something to the album or not, but personally I really like the album and I don't think I would have enjoyed it much more if Colin was on it. In the end it turned out good.

Interesting info, thanks for posting.

[Samsara]

Not surprisingly, the stories differ. Sounds to me like PT decided that Colin's input into PT wasn't worth bringing him back into the fold. My guess is, Colin would have asked for more $$$$ in comparison to a plain old touring bassist, and SW and PT just decided he wasn't crucial to PT's sound. I get it. It's not cool, but I do understand it.

[Nick]

I don't know much about any falling out, but more than $$$ if there was an issue between Colin and Richard it's a matter of is it worth bringing Colin along if it's only going to cause drama between the two of them when Steven has always seems to get along really well with Richard.

[PixelDream]

I would’ve loved to see Colin back but the truth is I like the album a lot. It’s good. I also really dig some of the bass playing so that’s that.. Still I’ll def miss Colin’s chilled out stage presence and fluid playing. He sure wasn’t a marginal part of the band’s sound. I do feel SW is probably selling his influence a bit short.. but then again the guys themselves know best.

[El Barto]

I'm certainly digging the album a lot, and I don't know if Colin's presence would make it a better album or not. His absence definitely makes it a different one, though, as I mentioned before. SW's bass playing couldn't be any more different than Colin's, and it changes the underlying tone of several of the songs quite a bit.

[Nick]

And this is 100% speculative on my part, but now that I believe they are operating under the "Porcupine Three" corporation as opposed to "Porcupine Tree", my guess is that the remaining guys restructured, but this time with things explicitly spelled out that Porcupine Tree releases have to involve the three of them. The original "Porcupine Tree" corporation likely didn't include those protections, hence why they could shuffle Colin aside.

[Kwyjibo]

I have high respect for Steven Wilson the musician but the respect for Steven Wilson the person diminishes with everything I hear or read about him.

[faizoff]

PT had an AMA on reddit today, nothing too out of the ordinary was answered, they're considering playing all tracks of the album and also maybe record a show for a recording.

I also wished they answered why the bonus tracks are part of the main release on all digital outlets.

Q: Hey all!
Was wondering that the decision to leave three amazing tracks off the record came down to? I think Never Have is one of the strongest tracks but was left off the vinyl and cd release. Just curious as to that decision making! Album is a masterpiece btw.
 

A: I think the answer is that we really like the 3 extra tracks, we really love that the bonus tracks are just as good as the album but we wanted to make an experimental and creative record and Never Have and Love In The Past Tense seemed a bit more lightweight so decided to release them as bonus tracks instead of being part of the main album cycle - SW

[Samsara]

And this is 100% speculative on my part, but now that I believe they are operating under the "Porcupine Three" corporation as opposed to "Porcupine Tree", my guess is that the remaining guys restructured, but this time with things explicitly spelled out that Porcupine Tree releases have to involve the three of them. The original "Porcupine Tree" corporation likely didn't include those protections, hence why they could shuffle Colin aside.

My thoughts exactly. And having three partners makes a majority easier to come by with decisions. I thought it was also noteworthy that SW mentioned that GH and RB now had specific roles and things they are in charge for regarding the band (merch, musical director, etc.). That all screamed business to me. PT likely has three owners and they most likely didn't want a fourth. Again, total speculation.

[Kram]

And this is 100% speculative on my part, but now that I believe they are operating under the "Porcupine Three" corporation as opposed to "Porcupine Tree", my guess is that the remaining guys restructured, but this time with things explicitly spelled out that Porcupine Tree releases have to involve the three of them. The original "Porcupine Tree" corporation likely didn't include those protections, hence why they could shuffle Colin aside.

Interesting.  So you're saying they created a new business entity or corporation that they're now operating as?  I'm not sure what the laws are in the UK - or how the original business entity was structured - but if he has part ownership of "Porcupine Tree", then I'm guessing he'd still get some royalties from any older tracks. I also question how they can operate under the name "Porcupine Tree"? Maybe they bought him out?  Or maybe "Porcupine Tree" was always a sole proprietorship (SW), and the other guys were employees? Who knows, but makes for great DTF gossip LOL.

[Samsara]

Kram,

Not speaking for Nick, but in general, unless Colin was a member of the band's corporation, it really doesn't matter. I don't think he had any ownership. My full-on guess is, Porcupine Tree was probably just SW and for this revamp, they re-did it so it was SW/RB/GH -- thus their increased roles in the business.

As for Colin's royalties, for records he performed on, those are generally captured and sent to him by whatever group (ASCAP, BMI, etc.) handles his rights. I'm not sure he had any publishing (maybe he did)? If so, publishing (writing) royalties are handled in a similar manner.

I'm not an expert on PT's structure, so this is all in generalities.

[Kram]

Kram,

Not speaking for Nick, but in general, unless Colin was a member of the band's corporation, it really doesn't matter. I don't think he had any ownership. My full-on guess is, Porcupine Tree was probably just SW and for this revamp, they re-did it so it was SW/RB/GH -- thus their increased roles in the business.

As for Colin's royalties, for records he performed on, those are generally captured and sent to him by whatever group (ASCAP, BMI, etc.) handles his rights. I'm not sure he had any publishing (maybe he did)? If so, publishing (writing) royalties are handled in a similar manner.

I'm not an expert on PT's structure, so this is all in generalities.

Yes, that is what my question was.  Was/is he a member of the corporation or LLC (as we have here in the US)?  If not then you're correct, it would not matter.  If he was/is, it gets trickier.

[Nick]

Yeah, Samsara has the general idea I was going for. Think of the corporation as the business entity that rules the group, but because SW ultimately likely has rights to the Porcupine Tree name the new corporation could still release Porcupine Tree albums but with the three of them acting under the rules of the new Porcupine Three corporation going forward.

I'd have to dig back in this thread, but a solid year or two before the news broke of this reunion someone found in the UK registry that this Porcupine Three corp. had been formed.

[KevShmev]

Given that Edwin said they had been in contact here and there over the years about business stuff and then the band said they never heard from him, my guess would be that the three kept it to themselves that they were working together and their "we never heard from him" stance could be in reference to working on anything new.  More than likely, Wilson was the one to make that call, and it wouldn't surprise if it got to a point where he thought, "we may not need Colin," so he advised them all to keep it under wraps so as not to rock the boat when they were still in that "are we going to do this or not?" stage.  I could be way off, but that seems like a very plausible chain of events to me.

[krands85]

I'd have to dig back in this thread, but a solid year or two before the news broke of this reunion someone found in the UK registry that this Porcupine Three corp. had been formed.

It seems to have been incorporated in May last year: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13381221

And it looks like the company is split equally between the three of them.

The old company still shows the four of them as directors, but only Steven is listed in the 'persons with significant control':
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/04392309

[King Postwhore]

Which goes to show that it's Steven's band. Not an equal vote like most want to believe. 

[KevShmev]

Eh, I think we all know that Chris Maitland is still pulling most of the strings behind the scenes.

[Nick]

I'd have to dig back in this thread, but a solid year or two before the news broke of this reunion someone found in the UK registry that this Porcupine Three corp. had been formed.

It seems to have been incorporated in May last year: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13381221

And it looks like the company is split equally between the three of them.

The old company still shows the four of them as directors, but only Steven is listed in the 'persons with significant control':
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/04392309

Thanks Krands, that's exactly the info I was talking about.

This is important because had Porcupine Tree (corp) continued, if something Steven didn't like came up he could theoretically toss someone at will.

Now that has basically happened to Colin, but we can be somewhat sure that neither Gavin or Richard are going anywhere against their will.

[The Letter M]

Looks like it was brought to our attention here on May 26th. 2021.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56164.msg2777301#msg2777301

IIRC, the reunion and album was officially announced back in November.

-Marc.

[ErHaO]

Which goes to show that it's Steven's band. Not an equal vote like most want to believe.

But isn't this exactly what changed now vs back then, by the three of them being equal owners?

[Kwyjibo]

I'm pretty sure, that SW has the last say in everything. And didn't he say, that he doesn't know if there's any future PT activity after this tour? So maybe this is all irrelevant in a few months time.