What god leaves Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps unpunished?

[rumborak]

An only semi-serious question of course. But, I also can't deny that seeing people who, were that God of the OT in any way around would have incinerated those two on the spot, to be alive and happily thrive, begs an explanation about that supposed god.
My interpretation is of course known, but what is the apologetic explanation that God seems to have stopped caring?

rumborak

[Adami]

The same god who didn't punish Hitler, Mao, Martin Luther or Paul?

A god who doesn't feel the need to police the world (proof that god isn't american).


But seriously, aside from being hate filled, Robertson and and Phelps aren't that bad. They're not killing people or anything, they're just being horrible human beings.

[rumborak]

I would understand God not caring about human-to-human dealings. But, Robertson and Phelps do their stuff in His name. That's a different thing in my book, and OT god wouldn't have that slip by in my opinion.
This of course is somewhat embedded in the general problem of "why has God's overt interaction stopped 3,000 years ago?".

rumborak

[jammindude]

Well...the Bible actually teaches that the Devil...not God...is in charge of the worlds affairs at the moment...so take that into account.

[yeshaberto]

for one thing, God intervening in the OT to kill individuals is actually pretty rare (considering how much time the OT covers).
but the answer to your question is the different relationship God had to Israel.  It was in essence a theocracy (unlike any other nation/time) and because his role in using Israel was to provide the messiah, it was critical to preserve them as a nation (thus destroying the enemies, etc).  since the arrival of the messiah, there is no longer that intervention

[Adami]

Well...the Bible actually teaches that the Devil...not God...is in charge of the worlds affairs at the moment...so take that into account.

What? Where does it teach that? Certainly not in my people's books.

[jammindude]

"We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one." - 1 John 5:19


"...among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (1 Cor 4:4)

Jesus hinted at it as well in a couple more scriptures...I'd have to find them.   

EDIT John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11...

[yeshaberto]

"We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one." - 1 John 5:19


"...among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (1 Cor 4:4)

Jesus hinted at it as well in a couple more scriptures...I'd have to find them.

as far as "your people's books," adami, I think the first few chapters of Job allude to it.  while all of scripture alludes to the ultimate sovereignty of God, Job seems to build a picture that God allows Satan to wreak havoc to some extent

[Adami]

I disagree about Job, especially if you come to the conclusion that the satan runs the world. I still don't believe in the devil, even if I were religious I wouldn't believe in the devil, because outside of Paul and I guess John, there's no evidence. And clearly I don't take John seriously, and you should know my thoughts on Paul by now.

[rumborak]

but the answer to your question is the different relationship God had to Israel.  It was in essence a theocracy (unlike any other nation/time) and because his role in using Israel was to provide the messiah, it was critical to preserve them as a nation (thus destroying the enemies, etc).  since the arrival of the messiah, there is no longer that intervention

Interesting response, but isn't this somewhat bothersome? I mean, you make it sound as if Israel was God's true interest, and the Christian people are not too much to care about. Keep in mind that God initiated the covenant with Israel. Why didn't he extend the covenant to the Christians too?

rumborak

[jammindude]

but the answer to your question is the different relationship God had to Israel.  It was in essence a theocracy (unlike any other nation/time) and because his role in using Israel was to provide the messiah, it was critical to preserve them as a nation (thus destroying the enemies, etc).  since the arrival of the messiah, there is no longer that intervention

Interesting response, but isn't this somewhat bothersome? I mean, you make it sound as if Israel was God's true interest, and the Christian people are not too much to care about. Keep in mind that God initiated the covenant with Israel. Why didn't he extend the covenant to the Christians too?

rumborak

The ultimate goal was Christianity.   The covenant with Abraham promised that "the seed" (which was Jesus) would come through his genealogy and that through that "seed" the whole world would be saved.   So the covenant with Israel was to bring about "the seed" by which EVERYONE who followed and listened to him (both Jews, and everyone else) could be saved.   

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

I disagree about Job, especially if you come to the conclusion that the satan runs the world.

It's fine to disagree, but if we're looking at the text in this argument, God sort of just...says it.  Not that "Satan runs the world" but that God gives Satan the permission to wreak some havoc.

[jammindude]

Actually I should rephrase that....because ultimately, even Christianity will become an outdated term. 

"For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."  (1 Cor 15:28)


So when Jesus turns over everything and subjects himself to his father...so that *all* creation is under the father (fact), I imagine that there will no longer be any need for the term "Christian" (speculation).
 

[Adami]

I disagree about Job, especially if you come to the conclusion that the satan runs the world.

It's fine to disagree, but if we're looking at the text in this argument, God sort of just...says it.  Not that "Satan runs the world" but that God gives Satan the permission to wreak some havoc.

Well I also don't see Job as historical. Thus I don't see the satan as a real character. But assuming I did, it would still be god allowing it in that instance, just forever at all times.

[rumborak]

I dunno, I still find it weird, even with the argument that since Jesus, God is "off the hook" so to speak, that your (supposedly loving) deity takes complete backseat and plain allows everything under the sun under his name. Doesn't it beg the question: "If you don't care, why should I?"

rumborak

[Omega]

Problem of Evil (or Suffering)?

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

I dunno, I still find it weird, even with the argument that since Jesus, God is "off the hook" so to speak, that your (supposedly loving) deity takes complete backseat and plain allows everything under the sun under his name. Doesn't it beg the question: "If you don't care, why should I?"

rumborak

Do you want what the Bible offers on this or an apologetics argument?  And I do ask sincerely.

[jammindude]

I dunno, I still find it weird, even with the argument that since Jesus, God is "off the hook" so to speak, that your (supposedly loving) deity takes complete backseat and plain allows everything under the sun under his name. Doesn't it beg the question: "If you don't care, why should I?"

rumborak

Our parents chose this.   We didn't have any choice.    God took steps to save his servants from out of a world that is run by Satan...sacrificing his son in the process.  It won't always be this way.   In the scripture I pointed out, Jesus will soon take over the affairs of the earth....all creation really....so that God's will can be done on the earth as it is in heaven.   It's just not happening right now.

[yeshaberto]

I haven't kept up with pat robertson and have no idea who fred phelps is, but I do know that "vengeance is mine" and he will definately repay those who blasphemously use his name.  it wouldn't surprise me if he has done so directly since the time of Christ, but I do know the he will have vengeance in the end.  wouldn't want to be in line behind westboro baptist, for example

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

yeshaberto, Phelps is the "pastor" of Westboro. 

[yeshaberto]

regarding Satan in the Tanach, you also have the account where he incited david to number the people.  seems like a pretty historical section to me

[yeshaberto]

yeshaberto, Phelps is the "pastor" of Westboro. 

oops 

[jammindude]

I don't see how you can leave him out of Genesis either...in the Garden of Eden... Unless you really think there was NO ONE behind that snake.  I personally don't.

[Adami]

I don't see how you can leave him out of Genesis either...in the Garden of Eden... Unless you really think there was NO ONE behind that snake.  I personally don't.

I don't.

[jammindude]

I don't see how you can leave him out of Genesis either...in the Garden of Eden... Unless you really think there was NO ONE behind that snake.  I personally don't.

I don't.

I'm confused...I thought you just said you didn't believe in him.  Do you not take the Genesis account as historical?

[Adami]

I don't see how you can leave him out of Genesis either...in the Garden of Eden... Unless you really think there was NO ONE behind that snake.  I personally don't.

I don't.

I'm confused...I thought you just said you didn't believe in him.  Do you not take the Genesis account as historical?

lol, right after I typed and sent "I don't", I realized that it's a poor wording based on what you said. My bad.

I DO think no one was behind the snake, and of course I see genesis as metaphorical and not literal.

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

In your opinion, what is Genesis metaphorical for?

[Adami]

In your opinion, what is Genesis metaphorical for?

Well we're getting too off topic here. Feel free to shoot me a PM.

[yeshaberto]

PS, I created a thread to discuss the validity of a spiritual enemy in thread about exorcism of emily rose

[rumborak]

I dunno, I still find it weird, even with the argument that since Jesus, God is "off the hook" so to speak, that your (supposedly loving) deity takes complete backseat and plain allows everything under the sun under his name. Doesn't it beg the question: "If you don't care, why should I?"

rumborak

Do you want what the Bible offers on this or an apologetics argument?  And I do ask sincerely.

Err, dunno. Both, I guess?

rumborak

[rumborak]

Our parents chose this.   We didn't have any choice.    God took steps to save his servants from out of a world that is run by Satan...sacrificing his son in the process.  It won't always be this way.   In the scripture I pointed out, Jesus will soon take over the affairs of the earth....all creation really....so that God's will can be done on the earth as it is in heaven.   It's just not happening right now.

Isn't that just a mild version of "the end is nigh" which people have proclaimed for the last 2,000 years but never happened? So far no transgression has been punished for the last 2,000 years, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that will change any time soon.

rumborak

[jammindude]

No one ever thinks it will happen in their lifetime....and it may or may not happen in mine.  (heck, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow)

But I do believe that we are in the foretold "time of the end"...and I think the signs are getting worse...   I personally believe that all the things signs that Jesus foretold (as well as the signs of the last days listed in 2 Tim 3:1-5) are coming true all around us.   But that would take, another thread....and probably be a moot argument. 

And then there's Peter's statement: "For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” (2 Pet 3:3, 4)

[hefdaddy42]

I don't see how you can leave him out of Genesis either...in the Garden of Eden... Unless you really think there was NO ONE behind that snake.  I personally don't.

I don't.

I'm confused...I thought you just said you didn't believe in him.  Do you not take the Genesis account as historical?

I don't take the Genesis account as historical.  But even taking it as a piece of literature, I see no reason to interpret the snake as anything other than a snake.  After all, that's what the text says.

[snapple]

Rumobrak,

Here is how you get to have the last laugh. It clearly states that God loves all of us. He doesn't hate "fags". They are one of the worst representations of Christianity. They choose to look at a few verses whilst ignoring almost the rest of the Bible. 

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

Our parents chose this.   We didn't have any choice.    God took steps to save his servants from out of a world that is run by Satan...sacrificing his son in the process.  It won't always be this way.   In the scripture I pointed out, Jesus will soon take over the affairs of the earth....all creation really....so that God's will can be done on the earth as it is in heaven.   It's just not happening right now.

Isn't that just a mild version of "the end is nigh" which people have proclaimed for the last 2,000 years but never happened? So far no transgression has been punished for the last 2,000 years, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that will change any time soon.

rumborak

The idea that "the end is nigh" means that Christians ought to live as though the end is coming, that Jesus could come back tomorrow.  Not in a fearful way, but in a dutiful way.