Author Topic: Union Workers  (Read 2986 times)

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Offline snapple

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Union Workers
« on: March 04, 2012, 07:40:29 AM »
Okay, I know some here like union workers.

Friday night, Northern Lower Michigan (the pinky, if you will) got hit with between 12-22 inches of snow. Saturday morning, there were 70,000 people without power. I talked to my brother, whose wife's friend actually works for one of the power companies. She was the ONLY one working for the power company. Why? Because, they were union workers and didn't have to work on a Saturday.

Meanwhile, you have 70,000 people without power. They had to call trucks from downstate to come up and help out with the power situation.

Ahem, bullshit.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 07:48:44 AM »
Unions are one of those things that everyone wants to be in, and wants no one else to be in one.
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Offline Riceball

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 07:58:18 AM »
I, ahem, should declare my hand here: I work for my state's chamber of commerce and industry - the anti-union, as it were.

That kind of arbitrary beaurocracy is something that both business and government (being the other two "players" in industry) are trying to get rid of in order to boost productivity and "grow the pie" for everyone (I hate using that term). Unions are relics of a by-gone era that are struggling to maintain their relevance. They pull shit like that in order to show their members, who pay fees for them to do almost nothing on their behalf, they are doing something.

Although I get that you can't just chop them out, but surely the workplace has evolved beyond the need for centralised unionisation...we aren't living in the days of the capitalists vs the proletariat.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 09:08:27 AM »
There's something amiss with that scenario.  As a rule, workers relish the opportunity for time and a half.  I don't think it's just a matter of them being lazy and wanting to sit at home because it's Saturday.  Perhaps the union insisted on a deal that paid them more than 1.5x, and the state told them no dice.  Perhaps the state just has a policy against paying OT, and the union told them to get bent.  Either way, I'd surmise that the problem likely stems from this particular union, which has done an inadequate job of negotiating for it's members.  I guarantee you that most of them would have rather been out making the big bucks than sitting at home and watching that money going to to their upstate neighbors. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 09:48:42 AM »
There's something amiss with that scenario.  As a rule, workers relish the opportunity for time and a half.  I don't think it's just a matter of them being lazy and wanting to sit at home because it's Saturday.  Perhaps the union insisted on a deal that paid them more than 1.5x, and the state told them no dice.  Perhaps the state just has a policy against paying OT, and the union told them to get bent.  Either way, I'd surmise that the problem likely stems from this particular union, which has done an inadequate job of negotiating for it's members.  I guarantee you that most of them would have rather been out making the big bucks than sitting at home and watching that money going to to their upstate neighbors.

ABSOLUTELY THIS

Trust me...especially in this climate...no one is just sitting at home going "nah, let someone else do it." 

The most likely scenario is that the OT pay was a problem. 
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Offline snapple

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2012, 12:40:13 PM »
My understanding that OT was being "allowed" for time and a half. Which is what it is in Michigan. Not sure if that differs state to state.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2012, 03:02:06 PM »
Couple months ago, my town got hit with 24"+ of snow in a few days, and smaller storms thereafter. Believe there was some ongoing labor negotiations, but the Union pulled in 16+ days for pretty much two weeks, and waited till after to sort out their issues.

Unions can be good or bad, any institution can degrade and corrupt over time. The bad one's don't say anything more about Unions than the good one's day.

Offline PraXis

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 07:42:31 PM »
Public sector unions can go fuck themselves. They have no reason to exist. Even FDR was against it. For private sector unions, they did a great thing to improve working conditions and all that, but they have become a huge funding mechanism in politics (mostly Democrats). They are not about the "workers" anymore, but about power. They want those union dues. I've known plenty of people who are electricians and carpenters who are in unions but do a fantastic job, but I also know plenty of people that love their perks..especially the holier-than-thou teachers...never met a more smug person than a tenured public school teacher... and postal workers.. I have some in my family, and the stories would make you wonder why they can stay afloat...oh wait the USPS is in the red.

Unions did help with establishing laws to improve working conditions, and that's fine, but I think they're past their prime. Union jobs pay alot compared to non-union and there's a reason for that.. if you can get the money good for you, but in times like these everyone is looking to save as much as they can. If I need some plumbing work done (for example) I want the job done for the best price. Overall, I am against collectivism via unions. I go to my job, and then I leave. I want nothing to do with my company off-hours. I'm not going to any stupid rallies against "evil" capitalists and I do not demand anything. Jobs belong to the companies that provide them. If the conditions suck, then get a job somewhere else. If you "can't" then you should have worked on your skills and networking so that you "can."

My only exceptions are emergency workers, such as police officers and firefighters. They put their lives on the line and I do not mind if they get some perks. In NJ (for example) they used to pay about 8% into their pensions, while the teachers paid 0...the police pensions were running at 120% or so (you typically need about 80% to cover costs of retirees)...and since the teachers paid nothing, the powers that be (politicians in the pockets of the union bosses) got the cops' money to be taken and spread around for the teachers...now teachers pay 1-2% and they bitch more than anyone you can imagine. My only concern with police/fire benefits is that many of the higher ups in these positions tend to get away with double-dipping. But again, fuck teachers. The NEA can piss off.

Offline snapple

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 08:44:35 PM »
School closings all over the county already. Thanks, union workers. I've also lost 18 hours of work.

Offline snapple

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 05:17:33 AM »
Make that 24 hours lost.

Well, I talked to my boss and she's going to at least pay me a minimum (she asked me how much I would need to pay my bills this week and said she'd make sure that much was in my check).

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 06:32:35 AM »
Public sector unions can go fuck themselves. They have no reason to exist. Even FDR was against it. For private sector unions, they did a great thing to improve working conditions and all that, but they have become a huge funding mechanism in politics (mostly Democrats). They are not about the "workers" anymore, but about power. They want those union dues. I've known plenty of people who are electricians and carpenters who are in unions but do a fantastic job, but I also know plenty of people that love their perks..especially the holier-than-thou teachers...never met a more smug person than a tenured public school teacher... and postal workers.. I have some in my family, and the stories would make you wonder why they can stay afloat...oh wait the USPS is in the red.

Unions did help with establishing laws to improve working conditions, and that's fine, but I think they're past their prime. Union jobs pay alot compared to non-union and there's a reason for that.. if you can get the money good for you, but in times like these everyone is looking to save as much as they can. If I need some plumbing work done (for example) I want the job done for the best price. Overall, I am against collectivism via unions. I go to my job, and then I leave. I want nothing to do with my company off-hours. I'm not going to any stupid rallies against "evil" capitalists and I do not demand anything. Jobs belong to the companies that provide them. If the conditions suck, then get a job somewhere else. If you "can't" then you should have worked on your skills and networking so that you "can."

My only exceptions are emergency workers, such as police officers and firefighters. They put their lives on the line and I do not mind if they get some perks. In NJ (for example) they used to pay about 8% into their pensions, while the teachers paid 0...the police pensions were running at 120% or so (you typically need about 80% to cover costs of retirees)...and since the teachers paid nothing, the powers that be (politicians in the pockets of the union bosses) got the cops' money to be taken and spread around for the teachers...now teachers pay 1-2% and they bitch more than anyone you can imagine. My only concern with police/fire benefits is that many of the higher ups in these positions tend to get away with double-dipping. But again, fuck teachers. The NEA can piss off.

In my opinion, Unions are one thing that keeps corporations/the state from trampling on workers rights. They can do harm or good, but they're there as protection for your job.

Offline Riceball

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 06:53:05 AM »
Can't fault PraXis' view here, although I probably wouldn't be as bold in my assessment. They are past their used by date - there are so many other checks and balances that exist these days with regards to workplace relations that their traditional functions are no longer useful, and they justify their existence by coordinating frivilant industrial action etc etc.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 08:22:57 AM »
School closings all over the county already. Thanks, union workers. I've also lost 18 hours of work.
So can you provide some source that the unions are to blame for the delay here?  All I can find is that it'll last about four days, and that they've got crews from other regions helping them out.  Both of these are routine occurrences for large scale outages.  Happens in Dallas every year or so, and it takes linemen from all across the state (and Oklahoma) to deal with all of the problems.

In the mean time, there's still the issue that if the local guys really aren't being allowed to work because of their union, that's something they'll likely be changing right soon.  If it's the case, I guarantee those guys would rather be out scoring golden time than sitting at home building snowmen. 
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 08:48:30 AM »

Offline snapple

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 07:33:15 PM »
School closings all over the county already. Thanks, union workers. I've also lost 18 hours of work.
So can you provide some source that the unions are to blame for the delay here?  All I can find is that it'll last about four days, and that they've got crews from other regions helping them out.  Both of these are routine occurrences for large scale outages.  Happens in Dallas every year or so, and it takes linemen from all across the state (and Oklahoma) to deal with all of the problems.

In the mean time, there's still the issue that if the local guys really aren't being allowed to work because of their union, that's something they'll likely be changing right soon.  If it's the case, I guarantee those guys would rather be out scoring golden time than sitting at home building snowmen.

I will say it was based on what I was told, not hard facts. I'll see if I can't look into it more.

Offline soundgarden

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 02:07:46 AM »
My first experience with the union nonsense is when I worked for my uncle's contracting firm.  I had to deliver a check to one of the Union workers before the end of the day for them; 3pm (*cough*) and if I am late the union contract stipulates that the worker will have to be paid for the entire next day as well.  So thanks to an accident on the road I was late 15 minutes and my uncle's company had to pay him for the next day.  I asked him how the hell does our economy allow this and he couldn't give me an answer.

Another event was a coworker of my uncle who, one day, on a job site saw a Union carpenter looking for a hammer.  The guy saw the  hammer, went to pick it up, and handed it to the worker.  My uncle's company got a very strongly worded letter the next day reminding them of obligations under union agreements, that union workers are specialized in their fields and must perform their works by themselves or some bullshit like that.

One of the train staitons in NYC is getting its canopies replaced.  I saw the cost of the work to be 35 million. I was shocked!  I worked as a consultant engineer for three years and I know for a fact that the scope of work detailed could not amount to more than 5 million.  I was half tempted to rush into the Mayors office....

My real objection to unions is the very nature of how workers operate with each other; the idea that ONE person is specialized in ONE task and must be done by that person.  From an operations standpoint; it is highly inefficient and does not have opportunity for learning/teaching, improvisation, etc...  The best run businesses are those that allow for the quick and efficient sharing of ideas, methods, and help.  This is why, I suspect, union workers cost so much (on top of their already generous pay).

Our economy cannot and should not support this abhorrent mutation of what was once so great an industry-consumer relationship.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 06:00:32 AM »

One of the train staitons in NYC is getting its canopies replaced.  I saw the cost of the work to be 35 million. I was shocked!  I worked as a consultant engineer for three years and I know for a fact that the scope of work detailed could not amount to more than 5 million.  I was half tempted to rush into the Mayors office....

That ain't union nonsense.  That's corruption.
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Offline PraXis

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 07:58:49 AM »
My first experience with the union nonsense is when I worked for my uncle's contracting firm.  I had to deliver a check to one of the Union workers before the end of the day for them; 3pm (*cough*) and if I am late the union contract stipulates that the worker will have to be paid for the entire next day as well.  So thanks to an accident on the road I was late 15 minutes and my uncle's company had to pay him for the next day.  I asked him how the hell does our economy allow this and he couldn't give me an answer.

Another event was a coworker of my uncle who, one day, on a job site saw a Union carpenter looking for a hammer.  The guy saw the  hammer, went to pick it up, and handed it to the worker.  My uncle's company got a very strongly worded letter the next day reminding them of obligations under union agreements, that union workers are specialized in their fields and must perform their works by themselves or some bullshit like that.

One of the train staitons in NYC is getting its canopies replaced.  I saw the cost of the work to be 35 million. I was shocked!  I worked as a consultant engineer for three years and I know for a fact that the scope of work detailed could not amount to more than 5 million.  I was half tempted to rush into the Mayors office....

My real objection to unions is the very nature of how workers operate with each other; the idea that ONE person is specialized in ONE task and must be done by that person.  From an operations standpoint; it is highly inefficient and does not have opportunity for learning/teaching, improvisation, etc...  The best run businesses are those that allow for the quick and efficient sharing of ideas, methods, and help.  This is why, I suspect, union workers cost so much (on top of their already generous pay).

Our economy cannot and should not support this abhorrent mutation of what was once so great an industry-consumer relationship.

I heard about similar stories about GM and the UAW contract. The one example is John, Joe, and James all work on the assembly line for a truck. They each do one specific part of the process. If James calls out sick, John and Joe can't step into James' role and production haults.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »
Our economy cannot and should not support this abhorrent mutation of what was once so great an industry-consumer relationship.

I can fully agree with this, and I can't really disagree with anything in your post (except point out the corruption element to it as well).

Quote
I heard about similar stories about GM and the UAW contract. The one example is John, Joe, and James all work on the assembly line for a truck. They each do one specific part of the process. If James calls out sick, John and Joe can't step into James' role and production haults.

Depending upon the kind of work being done, it could be potentially dangerous to make someone do a job they don't do, especially not regularly. This is a problem with our manufacturing methods, not unions. Unions simply make / made it so bosses can't force you into doing something where you can lose a limb, or potentially die. I think there should be more wiggle room, so that employee's can fill in if they chose to, but I don't think the thought-process should be gotten away with entirely.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 03:17:22 PM »
My view of unions has always been rather pragmatic. I see no problem whatosever with workers, who essentially "sell" their workforce to the company for the price of their wage, create the equivalent of a trade conglomerate to have more leveraging power. The real problem arises from the fact that there is usually only one union for a certain branch of work; which is essentially a monopoly. In my opinion, there should be an anti-trust for unions so there is competition amongst them too.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 03:22:22 PM »
My view of unions has always been rather pragmatic. I see no problem whatosever with workers, who essentially "sell" their workforce to the company for the price of their wage, create the equivalent of a trade conglomerate to have more leveraging power. The real problem arises from the fact that there is usually only one union for a certain branch of work; which is essentially a monopoly. In my opinion, there should be an anti-trust for unions so there is competition amongst them too.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 03:28:25 PM »
What I find really sad is that I'm pointing out something that should be a second nature answer to the supposed Libertarians and Conservatives, i.e. applying the free market principle to the labor market.
But no, the individual worker must never have any leverage, and that trumps all other considerations.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 03:40:40 PM »
Mileage among conservatives may vary.  But as far as this conservative is concerned, the individual worker having leverage isn't the issue.  It's great that individual workers have a voice.  But the problem is, even though unions were initially designed and came into being for the purpose of collectively giving workers a voice so that the individual could be part of that collective voice, most American unions these days do not, in practice, operate that way.  As you pointed out, they are basically monopolies, which is often bad for both employer and employee (because employees themselves often have no choice but to join one union, whether it represents their views and interests or not). 

I like the motivation behind what you proposed above, but I don't see how it is practical.  It only really works where it is possible to have different employees in the same workplace represented by different unions (or at least, having employees have the opportunity to do so).  If that is the case, you either have two unions that have negotiated exactly the same terms for employees in either union, or you have two unions that have negotiated different terms.  In the former situation (which is a highly unlikely one), having multiple unions is superfluous because they are providing identical benefits.  In the latter, you have similarly situated employees in the same workforce that are potentially being treated drastically different by the same employer, which is not fair.  And that doesn't even begin to address the fact that where unions are involved, interacting with union representatives is an administrative drain on a business.  It is usually tolerable where there is only one union involved.  But that administrative drain is increased if multiple unions were to come into play.  Just throwing that out there.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 07:34:40 AM »
That was a very good response, bosk, and I had to ponder it a bit because yeah, it wouldn't work in that form.
What could work however is the same union applying for all people in the company, instead of each worker choosing his own union. So, the company would kinda buy into a union like they do into a healthcare provider. There would be competition between union "providers" and the company would have the choice of the cheapest and most agreeable union.

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Offline snapple

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2012, 07:48:08 AM »
That was a very good response, bosk, and I had to ponder it a bit because yeah, it wouldn't work in that form.
What could work however is the same union applying for all people in the company, instead of each worker choosing his own union. So, the company would kinda buy into a union like they do into a healthcare provider. There would be competition between union "providers" and the company would have the choice of the cheapest and most agreeable union.

rumborak

YES!

Also, I haven't been able to find out more. I can only say that Michigan has been so fucked by powerful unions for so many years, it probably doesn't make the news anymore.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2012, 08:09:21 AM »
On the other, other hand, doesn't that however open up the possibility of companies exploiting that sort of advantage? Like, by choosing the cheapest and therefore least powerful unions, ones that can't stand up to companies all that much? I don't really have a point here, just playing devil's advocate.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2012, 08:40:48 AM »
It does, but that's really the same as with health providers, right? It would be part of the "benefits package" of a company, and if they subscribe to a union that only sucks up to the company's head level, you know you got a problem.

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Offline Orbert

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 03:49:52 PM »
I know I'm late to the party here, but I just have to say that as a former member of three different teacher's unions, I can generalize and say that teacher's unions don't do shit and should be abolished.

My very first job, I had graduated with an B.S. in Education and was excited as hell to be teaching.  As it happened, the district that hired me had had their contract run out the previous year, and this year was coming round with no contract in place.  The teachers were asking for a 3.5% raise, the county was countering with 2.5% and they were at an impasse.  Three days before school was to start, they voted to strike.  As a brand new hire, I hadn't actually joined the union yet, and I didn't really know what any of this meant to me.  My department head (who I'd met in a few meetings leading up to the start of the school year) took me under his wing and explained:

When the teachers go on strike, they will (obviously) not be working, and thus will not be paid.
Since I hadn't technically joined the union yet, I was not bound to honor the strike and could report to work if I wanted.
If I reported to work, I would still not be working, and thus would still not be paid.

Well, fuck.  I finally had my degree and was happy just to have a job, and these guys would rather walk around carrying signs than teach, over a measly 3.5%.  I didn't know how it worked in other districts, but in this one, the principal and assistant principals are not teachers and do not belong to the union.  They are administration and were "the bad guys" in this scenario.  They were also the ones who would be evaluating me at the end of the year to see if I worked there the following year, so, wanting to look as positive as possible and all that, I reported to work.  They told me to go home, there's nothing to do.  But I hoped I'd made a good impression, or something.

The strike lasted three weeks, during which time I worked as a sub in some of the neighboring districts.  The union ended up caving and going back to work, and accepting the 2.5% raise which was on the table.  The strike was for nothing!  They lost three weeks of salary and took the original offer anyway!

At the end of that year, I got an offer to teach in a Magnet school on the east coast.  Sweet gig.  The teachers' contracts had run out the previous year, and they were currently negotiating for a three-year contract with raises of 5%, 5%, and 6%.  Wow!  Big bucks and they were gonna get bigger.  I took the job and kissed the shitty first one goodbye.

Found out that the negotiations weren't going so well.  The county was saying that there was no money for a 5% and were offering a 1% raise.  Seriously?  One fucking percent?  Eventually the talks broke down and went to binding arbitration.  I'd already taken the gig, and the school year started with the teachers working without a contract.  Well, it was better than a strike, I guess.

The arbitrator looked at the 5% the teachers were asking, and the 1% the county was offerring, and "split it down the middle".  He decided that the teachers would get 2.5%.  (Trivia question: What is the average of 5 and 1?  Answer: Not 2.5)

Somehow the contracts were worded in such a way that if the money simply was not there, the county didn't have to give any raise at all.  Well, you can play with the numbers any way you want.   If you want to make it look like there's no money, there's no money, so the second year, the teachers got nothing.  Zero percent raise.  The third year, same thing.  Zero.  Nada.  So the amazing 5%-5%-6% turned out to be 2.5%-0%-0%.  Not exactly the big bucks I was promised, and my son was born during this time, so money was getting tighter.

And of course it was time to negotiate a new contract.  Our union managed to get a one-year contract with a 3% raise, caving in after originally asking for 6%, mostly to make up for the fact that we'd gotten nothing the previous two years.  And at the end of that year, it was time for yet more contract negotiations.  And time for me to find another gig.

This is already too long didn't read, but let's just say that despite actually paying a decent salary, I only lasted a year at my third and final teaching gig because my union had either no balls or no power to help me keep my job when things got ugly, so fuck education, and I now work as a programmer and make three times as much as I did when I left teaching.  This is why the best teachers don't teach.  They can make a lot more money doing something else, and since I had kids to raise and bills to pay, I left a profession I loved and was damned good at to pursue the almighty dollar.

Fuck unions.

Offline jsem

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 05:09:27 PM »
Orbert FTW.

A lot of the union power is because of state power being accorded to them. No one should get a handout. Voluntary transactions ftw. Collective bargaining is completely OK though, as long as they do not rely on state force in some way.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2012, 12:20:19 PM »
Orbert FTW.


It's a good post, but I really don't see how what he said actually agrees with what your position on unions are.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Union Workers
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2012, 05:57:37 PM »
I just felt like bitching about unions.  My problem with them is admittedly a completely different issue.